God Issue

[HoneyShot]

What I see here is that God has issues with Abraham and Solomon, but nothing specific abou tit being BECAUSE of their concubines or their marriages. Okay, they were randy old guys who didn't care much about their wives. I don't see God condemnng them for having many wives, just condemning them for not CARING for them. God was mad at Abraham for getting Hagar PREGNANT, not for sleeping with her or for marrying other women.

G-d was displeased with both Abram & Sarai, Abram for his inaction, not preventing the friction between Hagar and Sarai (he didn't want to upset either of them). - Not for concieving Yishmael with Hagar. He was displeased with Sarai for being so harshly angry with Hagar for her gloating, when she herself had been the one to initiate the situation in the first place by encouraging Abram to have a child with Hagar because she still had not fallen pregnant herself. G-d didn't repremand them directly for this act, but instead showed his knowing and judgement of the situation when Hagar had the privilege to be visited by angels, which shows testimony to the justice of her case, and G-d's caring for her suffering, and is also told by the content of the angels message.

Which of the men you mentioned do you percive to be not caring about which of their wives? Abraham, for example, cared about both of these women, I can give examples if you'd like, but I'd like to hear your opinions too.

 

[HoneyShot]

*sigh* Reba, I identifyed my sources correctly, I didn't state that they are texts from a book I don't own, belonging to a religion I have already explained I do not belong to. What is it your attack? Did you really think that you need to point out that they are not all from our shared texts? Of course not! I already identifyed them clearly as Jewish by openly siting my sources! Or did you not intend your post the way it came across to me?

In Judaism we have retained the complete texts, and the accompanying teachings. In Christianity you also have much of the written part, though some is admitted by Christian scholars to have been mistranslated, and other parts of the texts are not included, for various reasons. You don't have the accompanying teachings on these texts (something many a Christian scholar has lamented over the years!) - which is precicely why I referenced them as well as Torah/OT verses - because it is further info, that you probably wouldn't have had the opportuntity to see before. The two go hand in hand in my faith. I openly offered to the discussion what my faith teaches me on the subject, (not you, yours! That is for you to post.), as a historical context for the verses and relationships quoted by others, and also as interest in others views of the same texts. We are not all fundamentalist Christians on AD. You post NT verses often on AD, that isn't shared text either, but you dislike it if I also quote non-shared teachings? How about according us each the same standard?

There is nothing wrong with learning a little of the context of what others believe, that often allows better understanding between different peoples. Your reply seems to me as dislike of my posting despite not being of the same faith as you, because I didn't even argue with you I just elaborated on the same story as you! Do you just not like it if someone has something to contribute that you hadn't posted? I didn't mean to 'steal your thunder'. You take your history from us, yet you aren't interested in sharing posts about the similarities and differences, from those that retain this history (that is shared by your saviour and my people)? Ok. I would think it would at least be of interest to some, most Christians are usually appreciative of the opportunity to see what Jesus' people belived in before his time. (We haven't changed much) I am interested in what most of you have to say, as a context for understanding why Christians believe and value what you do. In fact, I didn't argue with you, but gave further complimentary info on the same story. I can give you verses on Hagar, sure, but your bible differs from mine, so is there any point or not? Also what is your source for her being a different person? According to the other Christians I have asked tonight, they each (unprompted by me) stated that Hagar and Keturah are the same woman, and said that was common understanding among their teachings too.

Let me know if you are interested, or only trying to find or create a conflict where there was none. If you are genuinely interested and respectful, then yes I will happily post further references. I am well versed in Torah, and this has so much potential to be an informative exchange of interpretations - but only with an understanding of where each of us are coming from.

Also your references to the men I named in the begining of my post, why did you try to shoot that down? I only added further examples to your own list (and only ones that are stated in Torah/OT I might add!)! I didn't state what G-d's ultimate judgement was either way on them, just what was the recoreded experience at the time. Please don't jump the gun! Where did I say it was actually accepted by him as you implied I did? Never. Did you just asssume that because I am Jewish that we must be at odds on everything, so my post must be against yours and not complimentary information, as it was actually intended as?

Shalom!

 

[Cheri]

Cheri, you really don't like my messages because I am giving you the 100% absolute truth messages. Therefore you are labeling me such as shoveling bible-thumpers or the judgers. That is fine with me and it is very important for me to deilevery you the 100% truth messages from the Bible to whatever the topics that we are discussing.

Ok do you like other people backstabbing on you? Please watch yourself.

How am I backstabbing you? If you are talking about what I've said on here about how I know you based on how you post, It's the truth Sorry if it offended you. But you have hurted some people here in AllDeaf based on how you posted.

No, that's not the truth message from God/Jesus. They would never cross that road of saying to anyone that "You're going to hell for the sins you've done." How do you know that homosexuals are going straight to hell? Show me where in the bible it says that?

 

[mlkshkgrl]

My friend and I had a debate on IM about god that will send us to hell which if some people are homosexual, or bisexual or whatever.. myself think god love all organisms that god made to love us so there's no reason that god should send us to hell.. just because some people are homosexuals.. and my friend said NO! if someone are homosexuals, or bisexuals will go straight to hell unless if they change to straight and also said god's rule said if there anyone who is homosexual shall send to hell.. so based on your opinion.. what's your belief on this condition?

I think that God loves all people. I don't know who will go to heaven or not, only he does. But the truth is that god made the homosexuals to. And if he is perfect and without sin then I dont see how it could be a flaw on his part. Therefore I cant see why God would condem what he created to hell as long as they try to follow a life through his word.

 

[Reba]

*sigh* Reba, I identifyed my sources correctly, I didn't state that they are texts from a book I don't own, belonging to a religion I have already explained I do not belong to. What is it your attack?

I am sorry if it seemed to be a personal attack. I certainly did not mean that.

In Judaism we have retained the complete texts, and the accompanying teachings.

I use only the Scriptures for proof because the accompanying teachings are not divinely inspired canon. I use commentaries and biblical research by scholars for study purposes but the bottom line for me is the Bible. The commentaries that I use are helpful for finding the topical verses I want, or learning about the historical settings. But I would not use a source that added "facts" to Scripture as being equally inspired as Scripture. That is why I don't accept Apocrypha, the Book of Mormon, the writings of Mary Baker Eddy, Dianetics, or any other books as God-inspired.

Commentary and analysis of the Bible is useful but is wrong if it claims to be equally inspired, or claims to add "insider" information that is known only to the inner circle.

We are not all fundamentalist Christians on AD.

Yes, I am very aware of that.

You post NT verses often on AD, that isn't shared text either, but you dislike it if I also quote non-shared teachings? How about according us each the same standard?

It is not a matter of "dislike" at all. You can present your text, no problem. You surely don't need my permission. I am not in charge of anything here.

... You take your history from us, yet you aren't interested in sharing posts about the similarities and differences, from those that retain this history (that is shared by your saviour and my people)?

You would be very surprised to know how untrue that is.

Ok. I would think it would at least be of interest to some, most Christians are usually appreciative of the opportunity to see what Jesus' people belived in before his time.

Yes, I am very interested. That is why I was hoping to get further Scripture references from you that I could look up in my Bible. But instead you took offense.

Also what is your source for her being a different person?

Because I haven't read anything in the Bible stating otherwise. That is why I wanted you to give me the verses that give that explanation so that I could read them. The other instances in the Bible of name-change are very clearly stated, so I thought the same would be true in this instance also. I just asked you to point it out for me.

According to the other Christians I have asked tonight, they each (unprompted by me) stated that Hagar and Keturah are the same woman, and said that was common understanding among their teachings too.

If that is the case, then why won't anyone give me the verses? That is all I asked. If it is "common understanding" where did it come from?

Let me know if you are interested, or only trying to find or create a conflict where there was none.

I was not trying to create a conflict. I prefer to find common ground. I am willing to learn new things, but I need to see more proof than what I read in an AD posting. No offense, but I don't know you, and you don't know me. The internet is not always trustworthy. So I like to be able to check it out.

Also your references to the men I named in the begining of my post, why did you try to shoot that down?

I am afraid that I am not following your meaning here. I am losing track of which part of what post. Which men?

Did you just asssume that because I am Jewish that we must be at odds on everything...

Absolutely not. You are one of God's chosen people. We Christians owe so much to the Jews.

Shalom!

Shalom Aleichem!

 

[HoneyShot]

Thank you Reba.

I don't have time to reply to your whole post properly right now, but I just wanted to let you know that I appreciate your reply and I will post back after work when I have more time to give you a proper response.

I do very much appreciate the exchange.

I didn't take offense, at all, but I am just very aware that anything uncomfortable like that needs to be addressed before it turns into anything more unpleasant. It isn't personal, just personal experience. KWIM?

I didn't offer those quotes as 'proofs' just as background information. Remember that as a Jew, I have no need to prove my religion to gentiles, because as long as they keep the 7 noachide laws then they are fine in G-d's eyes, and most Jews believe that Christians probably do fulfill those 7 laws (though the trinity thing is sticky for some). So proofs didn't really come to mind for me, it was just providing interest, and enjoying the discussion, learning about the differences for some perspective etc. Also, there is a difference in what you will accept as part of the bible and what I will, by virtue of our different faiths. There are some things that you will accept as bible that I won't, and likewise there is are parts of Torah that are now missing from the Christian OT, so will be unfamiliar to you, and you won't regognise them in the same light that I do. Also there are some verses that are now so different between them as to completely change their meanings, so I am trying to steer clear of those which is easier said than done, as I don't know what all of them are ofc! However those teachings have remained unchanged, and certainly not in any seceret circle. We as a people have always had them and have taken great care not to add nor subtract from them. Then the further commentaries are usually to point us to the scriptural references, and occationally draw our attention to things that may be implied or influences, for us to consider - not just the most literal level. They don't add anything 'extra' to the Torah at all.

Oh, Sorry, my post was a bit all over the place on subjects! The men I refered to where you lost my meaning, were the ones I listed as also having multiple wives, in addition to the ones you started us off with mentioning. I just thought it applicable to add a few more who also did too (but who most readers would still be familar with, regardless of their level of learning), for discussion.

Her name change is stated clearly in our writings, but now I think of it, I wonder if there may be others phrased similar to her name change in Hebrew texts that may also only seem alluded to in other translations (if hers seems not clear to you but some others are) that you may also not have seen as clear now I think of it, maybe not all of them are stated bluntly in English because of ambliguous words used when translated or something(?), but are very clear from the Hebrew text. It is very common for names to change, but looking at the Hebrew version, I can't see how hers wouldn't be clear. I will ask some of my Christian friends what their translations are and how it is stated in theirs, for you, since they were already familar with the name change too, so that you have a closer text to your own to compare with, if you like? Would that help? What version of the Christian bible do you use? I will see if any of them have that one too so that they can reference it for you. Trying to use what is most familar to you, might make the most sense on this.

Oops! I better get going, so much for a quick post!

Shalom.

 

[coloravalanche]

Honeyshot, I will answer to your questions soon...First, I would like to ask my Father some questions before I give you answers..I couldnt ask him today because on Saturdays, he tend to prepare his preachings on Sundays...I grew up not to bother him on Saturdays! heh! That is his ways...medicate and study his preaching for Sundays...

So, keep in mind I havent forgotten you yet...and also I will give out scriptures about homosexually issues...I need time to think before I say...I was very busy today so my mind isnt settling yet. heh!

I will get back to ya'll pretty soon...probably on Mon or Tues...Tmw is the church day soo it will be busy day for me tmw..

Good nite..

 

[Crazymanw00t]

I will get back to ya'll pretty soon...probably on Mon or Tues...Tmw is the church day soo it will be busy day for me tmw..

Little off-topic.

Is it a Deaf Church? Where? What kind Church? ex. Bapist, Reformed, Lutheran...

 

[coloravalanche]

Little off-topic.

Is it a Deaf Church? Where? What kind Church? ex. Bapist, Reformed, Lutheran...

It is hearing church...its Assembly of God Church...I go there on Sunday mornings at hearing service with an interpreter...but I also go to Missionary Baptist Church for Deaf Bible Study there...the couple teaches in sign language...I have no problem attending at baptist church even though I grew up in A/G church.

 

[Maria]

It is hearing church...its Assembly of God Church...I go there on Sunday mornings at hearing service with an interpreter...but I also go to Missionary Baptist Church for Deaf Bible Study there...the couple teaches in sign language...I have no problem attending at baptist church even though I grew up in A/G church.

Same here.

 

[Crazymanw00t]

It is hearing church...its Assembly of God Church...I go there on Sunday mornings at hearing service with an interpreter...but I also go to Missionary Baptist Church for Deaf Bible Study there...the couple teaches in sign language...I have no problem attending at baptist church even though I grew up in A/G church.

Nice!

 

[deafdyke]

here's a good criticism of the Bibical "proof" that
homomosexuality is a "sin":
http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_essa.
Check out THIS link for proof that your words and beliefs really do hurt and affect people! http://www.gaychristianonline.org/
I 'm not God...I don't know what His personal view on what and what isn't a sin is......but as a bisexual woman I have experianced the love of other women....and I can say one thing: Love is not evil. God is love.....the first time I fell in love with a girl (I was fifteen) it brought me closer to knowing who God is!

 

[Pvt. Parts]

deafdyke, just a heads-up but your first link gives me a 404.

 

[deafdyke]

Awk....can't find the edit button so here's the linky-link!:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_essa.htm

 

[deafdyke]

looks like nobody can think of how to respond to me.....Listen, being gay is not a choice. I can remmy when I was a teenager, and fell in love with a girl for the first time, I didn't even KNOW I could fall in love with a girl. I grew up with a couple of gay uncles and can remmy thinking "Why don't they get married so that I can have aunts and cousins?" If I had a choice...I never would have fallen in love with a girl. Look at my thread entitled confused as hell in the Closet forum..I would give ANYTHING not to have gone through something like that! ...I don't know why I loved Maureen, Jocelyn and Gayle...then again I dunno why I loved Pat, Caleb, Phil and my other significent others.....I will bet in ten or twenty years MANY churches and people will accept GLB love as just a part of God's love. Look how far we've come in stuff like acceptance of Judism and black folks! Back when my grandparents were twentysomthings a lot of people approved of what Hilter was doing to the Jews. Now that sort of belief has shrunk to those extreme Christian Idenity types!
If loving someone is a sin, then how come I feel closer to God when I am in love with someone? I remember when I fell in love with Maureen, she brought me closer to God and she taught me about the essense of God, which after all is love! We're talking about two teen girls who had NO clue whatsoever that it was possible for either of us to fall in love with a GIRL!

 

[Crazymanw00t]

^ If you love the same sex person and that is not called homosexual and it is called normal. To have sex with the same sex person is homosexual and that is sin thing to do. Love the same-sex is not the sin thing. LOVE and SEX is huge different with the same-sex person.

One comments with your comments about this,

"I will bet in ten or twenty years MANY churches and people will accept GLB love as just a part of God's love."

That would be the pragmatic churches for sure!

 

[Rickcares]

THE SECOND EPISTLE OF
PAUL THE APOSTLE TO
TIMOTHY

CHAPTER 3

Paul describes apostasy and perilous times of the last days—The scriptures guide man to salvation.

1 THIS know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was.
10 But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,
11 Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.
12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

(New Testament | 2 Timothy 3)

This chapter shows that the Apostle Paul was given revelation from Jesus Christ and Paul was able to predict what will happen in our day. Review of some verses are as follows:

Notice in verse 3 it says: "Without natural affection,..." When God created our first parents, Adam and Eve, it was natural affection when they made love to each other. When the apostle Paul said, "without natural affection", he was referring to homosexuality (gay and lesbian behaviors) as unnatural affection. There are more scriptures that speak against homosexuality. These are as follows:

Homosexuality (see also Chastity; Sexual Immorality)
Gen. 19:5 bring them out unto us, that we may know them
Lev. 18:22 (20:13) Thou shalt not lie with mankind ... it is abomination
Deut. 23:17 there shall be no ... sodomite of the sons of Israel
Isa. 3:9 declare their sin as Sodom
Rom. 1:27 men ... burned in their lust one toward another
1 Cor. 6:9 nor abusers of themselves with mankind
1 Tim. 1:10 them that defile themselves with mankind
Jude 1:7 as Sodom and Gomorrha ... going after strange flesh
See also Gen. 13:13; 18:20; Isa. 3:9; Ezek. 16:50; 2 Tim. 3:3; 2 Pet. 2:10;
(Topical Guide | H Homosexuality)

There are more scriptures that support and clarify these scriptures posted above. If readers of the Bible do not have the Holy Spirit with them, then it is very hard to understand the Scriptures. How do I get the Holy Spirit to be with me that I might understand the scriptures? I go in my bedroom, close the door for privacy, kneel by my bed, humbly, with an open heart to my merciful Heavenly Parent ("Dear Heavenly Father") to thank Him ("I thank thee") for everything, humbly & sincerely ask him bless me that I may understand the scriptures when I open them to read of His word. Then I close my prayer in Jesus Christ's holy name, Amen.

Now I may so read and study with a prayerful heart.

For quick reference to certain topics any of you wish to study, use the index or topical guide if your scriptures have any. It would be difficult to find the topic of your interest. If any of you don't have scriptures but wish to buy them, be sure you check the scriptures first to see if they have the INDEX or TOPICAL GUIDE before buying. I suggest the KJV (King James Version) of the Bible, but it is up to you. I also have the Bible Dictionary, maps, etc. It makes study much easier and worth it. Anyone is free to choose to read the scriptures or not to read. Anyone is free to choose the life wanted, but no one is free to choose the consequences or change the consequences to become favorable. Consequences depends on choices made, period! I have no control of that. Only God has control of the consequences. For example, if I chose (made a choice) to drive my car faster than the speed limit of 25 mph, say 70 miles per hour through downtown or city center, ran the red light and crashed into a large truck, am I going to make my consequence favorable by just not be hurt and get out of the totally damaged car and just walk away unharmed? That is not likely going to happen. Everyone knows I will either be badly injured or killed. If I live, but have multiple broken bones, lost a kidney or spleen, or teeth, an eye and so forth and so on and on, THEN THAT IS THE CONSEQUENCE I must accept. I cannot change that, but time will heal while I pay my debts and make restitution (repentance) to that truck driver for any damage to his truck. (insurance? Yes, of course, gotta have insurance, heh!)

The traffic signs are our "guide to physical salvation" or safety and same with the scriptures as our guide to SPIRITUAL salvation stated in the subject heading under "Chapter 3" above... The scriptures guide man to salvation.
No offense meant in this post. I'm just sharing and caring with love in my heart as prompted by the Spirit. Please be sensitive to one another because the Holy Spirit withdraws from contention, strife, quarreling, fighting, arguments, etc. I have no hard feelings against anyone and I hope you all are the same. Be loving, forgiving with open hearts always learning and edifying with kind words and deeds. Thank you! I love you all!

 

[Askjo]

Remember the story about Sodom and Gomorrah in the Old Testament? Why did God destroy two Homosexual cities by sending fire from heaven? The Biblical evidence shows that God hates the sin, not sinners. However if sinners refuse to repent. God will surely send him in hell.

 

[Askjo]

God is against *SIN*....He created for man and woman for sex and have family.

Make sense: Why did God made Eve? He gave Eve to Adam for pleasure, socialize and relationship. God never made man to man or woman to woman.

God will sent homosexuals and bisexuals to hell~ Im sorry to disappoint for you to hear this. Its the truth and fact! The devil influenced alot of people into thinking it is alright to be homosexuals or bisexuals.

Yes, God loves us all...there is no doubt about this. BUT God hates SIN..He despise what we are doing in SIN....homosexuals and bisexuals are SIN in His eyes.

I second that!

 

[deafdyke]

Askjo, actually the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah was inhospitality!!! There's even a Biblical verse that says that!!! It's late right now, but will try to look it up lata. Also the incident at Sodom and Gomorrah was NOT about a loving honest relationship between two consenting people, but rather about RAPE/sexual assault. Crazymanwoot, I undy what you're saying, but the feelings that I had towards Jocelyn, Gayle and Maureen, were different from the feelings I have towards my friends who I love. I've never desired to kiss or have sex with say OB or Kerry or Becca or Nattie or Steve....but I do love them.
Why is expressing my love for someone evil? Hetrosexual folks do a lot of the same things that we gay folks do, and yet nobody is knocking on their doors, saying that they are comitting sins or going to hell.
I don't eat excretement for sexual pleasure, I don't kill or injuire small kittens or children when I tell my signifcent others that their love is a wonderful gift...
I don't use an iron madien, I don't molest kids....I simply show (through physical actions) that my love for my significent others is the best thing in the world. God gave me those feelings, and He gave me the instinct to perform those physcial acts...Before I fell in love with Maureen, I had NO CLUE what girls did in bed together!
Crazymanwoot...what's a pragmatic church and how does it differ from the types of churches you attend? You'd probaly be surprised...even now there are religious support groups who are agitating for change in even the most conservative of churches. Please stop jugding us....Your words are doing a great deal of harm. There's a book out there written by a mom who thought exactly like you do. She was all "being gay is evil...homosexuality is evil!" and kept harping after her son...until he finally killed himself. Many homeless teens, many suicdes are the direct result of attitudes and thinking like yours.
Even I went through that, and I live in a very libral family! Matter of fact, I still am trying to deal with it every single day!
I have just one question...How would YOU feel if one day you met someone who was nice, awesome, sweet, funny and kind...how would YOU feel if you fell in love with a man? Go talk to someone who's dealt with that!! Maybe you'll understand!