ASL, SEE, PSE, etc.

[Reba]

...What is it with you, ASLers who have that right to mock SEE signs, just because you do not understand our signs....

I agree with you that no one should mock how another person signs. Deaf people use whatever signs they grew up with. Same situation with hearing people. They shouldn't mock each other's speech.

 

[jillio]

Let us go back a bit to when I first learned to sign: This would be when I was about 9 or 10 years old; over 50 years ago. Back then hearing people who were pro deaf, or at least neutral, referred to deaf people as "deaf and dumb" and referred to sign language as "talking with your hands." Hearing people who were unsympathetic to deaf called them "dummies" and called sign language "dummy talk", and if you signed in school you were suspended for three days. Deaf people did NOT sign in public. Oralism was the Holy Grail of those great souls who chose to spend their lives helping deaf to rise above the limits God had imposed upon them.

My best friend was CODA and we spent a lot of time out. His parents were chastized for teaching us that crap. Sign language was viewed at best as a bunch of garbled up gestures that served as a sort of makeshift substitue for English.

Then along came a guy named William Stokoe who proved deaf signers had a real language that was not just a bunch of gestures serving as a substitute English: ASL was born and people, including deaf people, started signing proudly, right out in public.

But wait a minute, some educators were not happy with this so someone came up with SEE, which is a makeshift substitute for English, and now ASL signers are supposed to give up their language for this wonderful improvement.

SEE users got the right to sign proudly in public from the fact ASL is a real language in its own right, even though SEE is not. Riding on our linguistic coat tails, so to speak.

It is sort of like being knocked down, kicked around, then somebody comes along, helps you back on your feet, dusts you off, and as soon as they walk off here comes somebody new who tries to knock you down all over again.

Enough is enough.

That is why ASL users, hearing and deaf alike, are very defensive when they feel the language they love is under attack.

Very good explanation.

 

[Cheri]

So basically Berry, You're blaming me for what you "ASLers" went through just because I've learned SEE sign language? There is no "universal sign language" Sign languages develop specific to their communities and is not universal, It's the same as there isn't a universal spoken language if you think ASL is the universal sign language, then you are wrong, When you meet a Deaf person from another country their signs will not be ASL either, their signs would matched up what community they're in. Even though ASL is the most commonly used of sign language in the USA by the deaf culture, it doesn't mean we all uses ASL, It's the same as what method we grew up in, we don't all go to deaf schools, share the same program. There's many and many communication tools for the deaf, parents choose one tool for us or maybe just maybe they'll chosen them all.

We are all deaf, does it matter what signs we uses? Why can't we just all get along and learned from each others signs.

 

[shel90]

So basically Berry, You're blaming me for what you "ASLers" went through just because I've learned SEE sign language? There is no "universal sign language" Sign languages develop specific to their communities and is not universal, It's the same as there isn't a universal spoken language if you think ASL is the universal sign language, then you are wrong, When you meet a Deaf person from another country their signs will not be ASL either, their signs would matched up what community they're in. Even though ASL is the most commonly used of sign language in the USA by the deaf culture, it doesn't mean we all uses ASL, It's the same as what method we grew up in, we don't all go to deaf schools, share the same program. There's many and many communication tools for the deaf, parents choose one tool for us or maybe just maybe they'll chosen them all.

We are all deaf, does it matter what signs we uses? Why can't we just all get along and learned from each others signs.

That is not what Berry is saying. He is not blaming u...he is explaining why he becomes defensive when the language he loves is being attacked and sharing his experiences during a time when deaf children were punished for using the only language that is fully accessible to them. He made a post emphasizing that he wasnt attacking u.

 

[Cheri]

. Yes, I love ASL and I do become defensive when I feel it is under attack especially by the oralists blaming it for poor literacy skills

I grew up being an oralist, and I never once attacked any ASLers for their poor literacy skills. :| and I do not agree who does.

 

[Cheri]

That is not what Berry is saying. He is not blaming u...he is explaining why he becomes defensive when the language he loves is being attacked and sharing his experiences during a time when deaf children were punished for using the only language that is fully accessible to them. He made a post emphasizing that he wasnt attacking u.

That's fine if he loves ASL, two wrongs do not make it right, Shel. He did say something about SEE on his first post. If he don't want his beloved ASL being attacked then he should take his own advice for what he said about SEE sign language.

 

[shel90]

I grew up being an oralist, and I never once attacked any ASLers for their poor literacy skills. :| and I do not agree who does.

I grew up oral...I am talking about the doctors, audiologists and oral deaf ed teachers...

 

[Angel]

I respectful disagree, because my sister and I signed and sang Christmas songs in exact English at mainstream school, I wish my dad video taped it because I'll love to show you how beautiful it looks.

Right Cheri, most of our friends knows we sign SEE, they accept us no matter which sign lauguage methods we use.

 

[Angel]

With no disrespect intended, signing songs in SEE is very awkward coompared to ASL wich is smooth-flowing, concise and graceful.

Smh whatever.

 

[jillio]

I grew up oral...I am talking about the doctors, audiologists and oral deaf ed teachers...

Me, too. If a deaf person wants to sign SEE, and is more comfortable with that, I will accept that, and I will adjust myself to whatever communication method they want to use. That is why I took the time to learn SEE.

I don't mean to sound judgemental toward SEE signers at all. Nor do I judge oral deaf. If they want me to speak, I will speak to them without signing. If a deaf friend want to sign SEE with voice, I will sign SEE with voice. If they want to sign PSE with or without voice, I will sign PSE with or without voice. It doesn't matter to me on a personal level. What I am concerned with on a personal level is being able to communicate with my friends. Period.

But when we discuss education and linguistics, it is not so personal as it is professional. As a professional, I have to look at the differences. As a friend, all I need to know is that I can communicate with my friend.

 

[restless_heart]

So basically Berry, You're blaming me for what you "ASLers" went through just because I've learned SEE sign language? There is no "universal sign language" Sign languages develop specific to their communities and is not universal, It's the same as there isn't a universal spoken language if you think ASL is the universal sign language, then you are wrong, When you meet a Deaf person from another country their signs will not be ASL either, their signs would matched up what community they're in. Even though ASL is the most commonly used of sign language in the USA by the deaf culture, it doesn't mean we all uses ASL, It's the same as what method we grew up in, we don't all go to deaf schools, share the same program. There's many and many communication tools for the deaf, parents choose one tool for us or maybe just maybe they'll chosen them all.

We are all deaf, does it matter what signs we uses? Why can't we just all get along and learned from each others signs.

I was going to say the same thing. There is a girl I work with, she speak Spanish and I am deaf...we got along good because we have found ways to communicate by using hand motions (Not SEE, ASL or PSE-maybe a new language for us ). We accepted the way we are and the way we were taught. It is interesting to learn other language and share it, not to mock each other to say who is better one here.

 

[Kaitin]

I hope I didn't seem to attack SEE or people using SEE. SEE and PSE in conversation sometimes just confuse me, but I have no problem with people using SEE or PSE. Most time communication is hard (I think), so if SEE or PSE or something else works, then great.

We are all deaf, does it matter what signs we uses? Why can't we just all get along and learned from each others signs.

I hope we can, Cheri.

 

[Berry]

So basically Berry, You're blaming me for what you "ASLers" went through just because I've learned SEE sign language?

That question is so layered you have to be very good at English in order to present it. It also has a couple of presuppositions that are not correct. Please slow down. Relax, no one here is against Cheri, even those who are the most radically anti SEE.

You are not the language you speak.

Also every language, including ASL and English, has some incongruities in it that make both native speakers and foriegners sit back and blink.

You are certainly not to blame for something you were not even alive to experience. It is only part of my personal experience because I am old and first learned to sign when sign language was socially castrated. But I learned it and used it any way because it was one of the most fun things I had ever done and my best friend's parents were deaf. We signed everywhere all the time, and enjoyed the consternation we caused, but my friends parents would not allow us to sign openly in public when they were around unless we absolutely had too -- Because it caused undo attention. Back then some hearing people thought that deaf people "talking with their hands" was an urban myth. Only those who had close contact with deaf people were even aware of it let alone use it.

You are not to blame for that.

On the other hand if you sign, and if you are American: Then this is part of YOUR history whether you are deaf or not -- Regardless what kind of sign language you use.

There is no "universal sign language" Sign languages develop specific to their communities and is not universal, It's the same as there isn't a universal spoken language if you think ASL is the universal sign language, then you are wrong, When you meet a Deaf person from another country their signs will not be ASL either, their signs would matched up what community they're in. Even though ASL is the most commonly used of sign language in the USA by the deaf culture, it doesn't mean we all uses ASL, It's the same as what method we grew up in, we don't all go to deaf schools, share the same program. There's many and many communication tools for the deaf, parents choose one tool for us or maybe just maybe they'll chosen them all.

This is true. In fact there are areas in Canada that are really insane; my friend told me in Quebic she ran into signers of ASL, BSL, and FSL (American, Brittish, and French). I'm surprized they don't come up with their own QSL.

The problem with SEE, from an ASL, BSL, or Auslan (Australian sign language) point of view is that it is not a "language" in the same sense. SEE; like the words you see printed here; is manually coded English: Which in and of itself is not a bad idea. SEE used ASL signs: Which is actually a very good idea; it should allow most deaf American signers easy access to it.

But then the inventors of SEE took a bad turn. They were hearing people "doing something for the deaf" and their innate egotistical belief in the superiority of English caused them to mutilate ASL at any and every point where compromise between the two languages was possible. Suddenly an excellent idea that should have given ASL signers easier access to English and give hearing people easier access to ASL became just one more problem to over come.

Please note I am disparaging those who created SEE, not those who use it.

Of course as a native SEE signer you don't have these problems until you confuse an ASLer by using a familier sign in a manner that appears nonsensical to them. (Such as a nose that runs on legs like a person or an animal rather than flows like a liquid, which by the way is just as stupid in English as it is in sign, but is used so commonly no one thinks about it).

We are all deaf, does it matter what signs we uses? Why can't we just all get along and learned from each others signs.

Well that places me firmly as an outsider who has no right to speak about deaf issues. I'm not only hearing but my signing ability has fallen unused for so long it is pathetic. The signers in my family (all hearing) seem to all be busy nowadays and the hoh peeps I've met in the past few years reject sign language in toto.

But I see myself as part of the signing community and all deaf sign language issues as issues that concern the entire signing community. I want the right to sit in a restuarant and sign with my family just as much as you do. I want the right to go to the principal's office of my grand daughter's school and sign to her without being told "We don't allow that here" just as much as you do. The fact that my family and grand daughter are hearing is not the issue.

The right to sign and be proud of it is.

I would like to end on this note: Can't we have differing points of view on the merits the language we are discussing without disrespecting the person who uses the language?

Some Mexicans have told me that Germans sound like horses and Americans sound like geese.

Should I be mad at them?

I don't think so: They love me and we laugh at each other.

 

[jillio]

That question is so layered you have to be very good at English in order to present it. It also has a couple of presuppositions that are not correct. Please slow down. Relax, no one here is against Cheri, even those who are the most radically anti SEE.

You are not the language you speak.

Also every language, including ASL and English, has some incongruities in it that make both native speakers and foriegners sit back and blink.

You are certainly not to blame for something you were not even alive to experience. It is only part of my personal experience because I am old and first learned to sign when sign language was socially castrated. But I learned it and used it any way because it was one of the most fun things I had ever done and my best friend's parents were deaf. We signed everywhere all the time, and enjoyed the consternation we caused, but my friends parents would not allow us to sign openly in public when they were around unless we absolutely had too -- Because it caused undo attention. Back then some hearing people thought that deaf people "talking with their hands" was an urban myth. Only those who had close contact with deaf people were even aware of it let alone use it.

You are not to blame for that.

On the other hand if you sign, and if you are American: Then this is part of YOUR history whether you are deaf or not -- Regardless what kind of sign language you use.




This is true. In fact there are areas in Canada that are really insane; my friend told me in Quebic she ran into signers of ASL, BSL, and FSL (American, Brittish, and French). I'm surprized they don't come up with their own QSL.

The problem with SEE, from an ASL, BSL, or Auslan (Australian sign language) point of view is that it is not a "language" in the same sense. SEE; like the words you see printed here; is manually coded English: Which in and of itself is not a bad idea. SEE used ASL signs: Which is actually a very good idea; it should allow most deaf American signers easy access to it.

But then the inventors of SEE took a bad turn. They were hearing people "doing something for the deaf" and their innate egotistical belief in the superiority of English caused them to mutilate ASL at any and every point where compromise between the two languages was possible. Suddenly an excellent idea that should have given ASL signers easier access to English and give hearing people easier access to ASL became just one more problem to over come.

Please note I am disparaging those who created SEE, not those who use it.

Of course as a native SEE signer you don't have these problems until you confuse an ASLer by using a familier sign in a manner that appears nonsensical to them. (Such as a nose that runs on legs like a person or an animal rather than flows like a liquid, which by the way is just as stupid in English as it is in sign, but is used so commonly no one thinks about it).




Well that places me firmly as an outsider who has no right to speak about deaf issues. I'm not only hearing but my signing ability has fallen unused for so long it is pathetic. The signers in my family (all hearing) seem to all be busy nowadays and the hoh peeps I've met in the past few years reject sign language in toto.

But I see myself as part of the signing community and all deaf sign language issues as issues that concern the entire signing community. I want the right to sit in a restuarant and sign with my family just as much as you do. I want the right to go to the principal's office of my grand daughter's school and sign to her without being told "We don't allow that here" just as much as you do. The fact that my family and grand daughter are hearing is not the issue.

The right to sign and be proud of it is.

I would like to end on this note: Can't we have differing points of view on the merits the language we are discussing without disrespecting the person who uses the language?

Some Mexicans have told me that Germans sound like horses and Americans sound like geese.

Should I be mad at them?

I don't think so: They love me and we laugh at each other.

 

[shel90]

That question is so layered you have to be very good at English in order to present it. It also has a couple of presuppositions that are not correct. Please slow down. Relax, no one here is against Cheri, even those who are the most radically anti SEE.

You are not the language you speak.

Also every language, including ASL and English, has some incongruities in it that make both native speakers and foriegners sit back and blink.

You are certainly not to blame for something you were not even alive to experience. It is only part of my personal experience because I am old and first learned to sign when sign language was socially castrated. But I learned it and used it any way because it was one of the most fun things I had ever done and my best friend's parents were deaf. We signed everywhere all the time, and enjoyed the consternation we caused, but my friends parents would not allow us to sign openly in public when they were around unless we absolutely had too -- Because it caused undo attention. Back then some hearing people thought that deaf people "talking with their hands" was an urban myth. Only those who had close contact with deaf people were even aware of it let alone use it.

You are not to blame for that.

On the other hand if you sign, and if you are American: Then this is part of YOUR history whether you are deaf or not -- Regardless what kind of sign language you use.




This is true. In fact there are areas in Canada that are really insane; my friend told me in Quebic she ran into signers of ASL, BSL, and FSL (American, Brittish, and French). I'm surprized they don't come up with their own QSL.

The problem with SEE, from an ASL, BSL, or Auslan (Australian sign language) point of view is that it is not a "language" in the same sense. SEE; like the words you see printed here; is manually coded English: Which in and of itself is not a bad idea. SEE used ASL signs: Which is actually a very good idea; it should allow most deaf American signers easy access to it.

But then the inventors of SEE took a bad turn. They were hearing people "doing something for the deaf" and their innate egotistical belief in the superiority of English caused them to mutilate ASL at any and every point where compromise between the two languages was possible. Suddenly an excellent idea that should have given ASL signers easier access to English and give hearing people easier access to ASL became just one more problem to over come.

Please note I am disparaging those who created SEE, not those who use it.

Of course as a native SEE signer you don't have these problems until you confuse an ASLer by using a familier sign in a manner that appears nonsensical to them. (Such as a nose that runs on legs like a person or an animal rather than flows like a liquid, which by the way is just as stupid in English as it is in sign, but is used so commonly no one thinks about it).




Well that places me firmly as an outsider who has no right to speak about deaf issues. I'm not only hearing but my signing ability has fallen unused for so long it is pathetic. The signers in my family (all hearing) seem to all be busy nowadays and the hoh peeps I've met in the past few years reject sign language in toto.

But I see myself as part of the signing community and all deaf sign language issues as issues that concern the entire signing community. I want the right to sit in a restuarant and sign with my family just as much as you do. I want the right to go to the principal's office of my grand daughter's school and sign to her without being told "We don't allow that here" just as much as you do. The fact that my family and grand daughter are hearing is not the issue.

The right to sign and be proud of it is.

I would like to end on this note: Can't we have differing points of view on the merits the language we are discussing without disrespecting the person who uses the language?

Some Mexicans have told me that Germans sound like horses and Americans sound like geese.

Should I be mad at them?

I don't think so: They love me and we laugh at each other.

 

[Cheri]

I understand what you're saying berry. But, ASL doesn't follow the grammar of written English, ASL certainly isn't good English but it's a good language for deaf people. So, they set out to improve sign language, to make it conform more closely to English. Today, we have Signed English and PSE. I know you don't like that idea, but I think that they just want to do what's best for deaf people, even if we don't agree with how they do it. I've known that some deaf people's right to sign were restricted all because of Alexander Graham Bell. The oralists won many battles and for a long time the use of sign was not allowed to be use by many deaf. Many of us who grew up oralism had no concept of what sign language was, because we did not know it was out there for us. That's one reason why I don't like the Alexander Graham Bell organization, because they took away sign language from deaf children, and we only had to be taught speech. I don't agree with how we all have to stick with one tool instead of learning them all, I love each sign languages that each deaf person uses, even if it's in ASL, or PSE, or SEE. no sign is better than the other, and this is what I believe.

 

[shel90]

I understand what you're saying berry. But, ASL doesn't follow the grammar of written English, ASL certainly isn't good English but it's a good language for deaf people. So, they set out to improve sign language, to make it conform more closely to English. Today, we have Signed English and PSE. I know you don't like that idea, but I think that they just want to do what's best for deaf people, even if we don't agree with how they do it. I've known that some deaf people's right to sign were restricted all because of Alexander Graham Bell. The oralists won many battles and for a long time the use of sign was not allowed to be use by many deaf. Many of us who grew up oralism had no concept of what sign language was, because we did not know it was out there for us. That's one reason why I don't like the Alexander Graham Bell organization, because they took away sign language from deaf children, and we only had to be taught speech. I don't agree with how we all have to stick with one tool instead of learning them all, I love each sign languages that each deaf person uses, even if it's in ASL, or PSE, or SEE. no sign is better than the other, and this is what I believe.

From a person who has studied language acquistion and linguistics, it would be like saying ok to change spoken English to follow ASL grammar. That would mean having people talk in ASL or use ASL-speak. Now, hearing people wouldnt accept English being changed to match Deaf people's language, wouldnt they? That was what happened when SEE was invented. That's in essence to what Berry is trying to explain. Hope that makes sense?

No offense but from a linguistic's standpoint, that was what happened when SEE was invented. For children who dont have a strong language foundation, SEE can be confusing to them and hasnt helped with literacy skills historically.

 

[RDC_girl]

This is true. In fact there are areas in Canada that are really insane; my friend told me in Quebic she ran into signers of ASL, BSL, and FSL (American, Brittish, and French). I'm surprized they don't come up with their own QSL.

It is funny you say that Berry... Quebec does have their own Sign language, LSQ

Quebec Sign Language, known in French as Langue des signes québécoise (LSQ),

Here is the link if you want to read about it.
Quebec Sign Language - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Berry]

I understand what you're saying berry. But, ASL doesn't follow the grammar of written English, ASL certainly isn't good English but it's a good language for deaf people. So, they set out to improve sign language, to make it conform more closely to English. Today, we have Signed English and PSE. I know you don't like that idea, but I think that they just want to do what's best for deaf people, even if we don't agree with how they do it. I've known that some deaf people's right to sign were restricted all because of Alexander Graham Bell. The oralists won many battles and for a long time the use of sign was not allowed to be use by many deaf. Many of us who grew up oralism had no concept of what sign language was, because we did not know it was out there for us. That's one reason why I don't like the Alexander Graham Bell organization, because they took away sign language from deaf children, and we only had to be taught speech. I don't agree with how we all have to stick with one tool instead of learning them all, I love each sign languages that each deaf person uses, even if it's in ASL, or PSE, or SEE. no sign is better than the other, and this is what I believe.

I actually agree with everything you say. No one language is better than another, but some languages seem better suited to one purpose than another. People say French is the language of diplomats, English the language of science, and Spanish the language of love. There are things I can express with ease in Spanish or ASL, which are second languages to me, that I have great difficulty in expressing in my native tongue, English.

I am actually against anyone doing anything for someone else "for their own good".

At least one hard line user of ASL drives me up the wall. She is a relative of mine. I am older. Some of the signs I use naturally are older. When I learned sign language the signs for "and", "because", "that", "for", and "for - for" were normal signs. They were around long before SEE and when I learned them SEE had not been invented yet. But whenever I use one of those she tells me "Don't use that sign. It is not ASL it is SEE."

From a person who has studied language acquistion and linguistics,

I love linguistics: have never studied language acquisition ( Don't have the time right now either) -- But please can you give me a couple of things to read that would give me a solid handle on this subject?

From a person who has studied language acquistion and linguistics, it would be like saying ok to change spoken English to follow ASL grammar. That would mean having people talk in ASL or use ASL-speak. Now, hearing people wouldnt accept English being changed to match Deaf people's language, wouldnt they?

No, they wouldn't, but in an aside, English could do with a solid dose of influence from ASL. One of the barriers to teaching ASL to hearing people is to get them to realize how many words we use in every sentence that have no real valid reason for their existence.

Learning a second language enables us to look at our native language in a new, fresh light.

For children who dont have a strong language foundation, SEE can be confusing to them and hasnt helped with literacy skills historically.

That is sad.

It is funny you say that Berry... Quebec does have their own Sign language, LSQ

Quebec Sign Language, known in French as Langue des signes québécoise (LSQ),

Here is the link if you want to read about it.
Quebec Sign Language - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is what I think happens naturally when two or more languages mix freely.

What really blows me away is that boys and girls sign differently.

 

[Reba]

...ASL doesn't follow the grammar of written English

It's not supposed to. ASL is a language separate from American English. It's like saying "German doesn't follow the grammar of written English." It's not supposed to because it's a separate language. People who are native speakers of German have to learn the grammar for English if they want to become fluent in English as a second language. That's what ASL users do. They learn English grammar as a second language.

ASL certainly isn't good English

It's not supposed to be. German isn't good English either. That's the same concept. German is good German but it's not good English.

...So, they set out to improve sign language, to make it conform more closely to English.

That's one of the major sticking points of SEE. Who are "they" and what right to do "they" have to tamper with someone's language? I don't think American English speakers would quietly accept some "experts" from Mexico trying to "improve" our language to make it conform more closely to Spanish. That's not improving; that's tampering.

Today, we have Signed English and PSE. I know you don't like that idea, but I think that they just want to do what's best for deaf people, even if we don't agree with how they do it.

Again, who are "they" and who gave them the right to change someone else's language? Doing "what's best for deaf people" is a paternalistic 19th Century viewpoint that many people resent. Suppose someone suggested "doing what's best for black people" whether or not they liked it? There would be rioting in the streets.

... I don't like the Alexander Graham Bell organization, because they took away sign language from deaf children, and we only had to be taught speech.

That's how some ASL Deaf feel about SEE. They feel that ASL was taken away from deaf children, and were taught only SEE for many years. That's why it's such a sensitive subject.

I don't agree with how we all have to stick with one tool instead of learning them all, I love each sign languages that each deaf person uses, even if it's in ASL, or PSE, or SEE. no sign is better than the other, and this is what I believe.

I also believe that no one should criticize another for the signs that they use.

The differences just need to be clearly understood so people can make educated choices. ASL is the native language of American Deaf, SEE is an invented manual mode of English, and PSE is an adaptation of ASL on a long continuum used to bridge two language groups (ASL signers and English speakers). (Those are just summary definitions.)