It it really the deaf/Deaf community?

Last year, I posted a post and in one of my sentences I said "Hearing people......." I cant remember what I said but after posting it, another hearing ADer who has a deaf son, told me that he doesnt think that way and that I was generalizing all hearing people when I made that statement. I told him that he was right and apologized. I always kept in mind to say "some hearing people instead of hearing people...."

So, I would expect the same respect from people if they talk about the Deaf community and to keep in mind that the Deaf community is composed of individuals who have their own opinions and views. By saying "The Deaf community did this or that..." is generalizing.
 
So, I would expect the same respect from people if they talk about the Deaf community and to keep in mind that the Deaf community is composed of individuals who have their own opinions and views. By saying "The Deaf community did this or that..." is generalizing.

It is bad to take a few individuals and assume that their beliefs represent the whole population.

I have to say something here though. I am not quite sure why some deaf people are upset at hearing parents HERE on AD. Isn't the fact that they made the effort to come on AD and listen to other deaf people show that they do want to interact with the deaf community? They don't even have to come here at all nor talk to other deaf people AT ALL. It seems to me that they don't reject the deaf community, but rather they just defend their choices on their child. To me, rejection of the deaf community is not even interacting with them at all, not defending your choices for your child.
 
I am going to answer based on my mother's answers to me. When my mother asked for assistanced she felt rejected. My hearing loss was found when I was 3 and my mother tried to find the appropriate educational placement for me and was refused. She then made a choice for oral education. My daily life did not have contact with HOH or deaf individuals. I lived in the country our neighbors were the cows. I only had one deaf individual in all my years of school as a friend. I didn't seek since I did not feel the connection.

I have noticed on more than one occasion that hearing parents of deaf children have accused the deaf/Deaf community of being unreceptive toward their CI implanted child.I have seen hearing parents accuse the deaf/Deaf community of trying to set their deaf child apart based on the fact that they are implanted. It always, in any discussion of implantation of deaf children, comes down to, "The Deaf community has rejected my child because I chose to give him/her the gift of sound!" The Deaf community, in the end, is always blamed for the lack of contact with other deaf/Deaf that the child has.
We don't know what they have been through. The choice for CI is so difficult, I can see they want to shield the child from rejection. I don't believe that they should blame the whole community. The online community I believe is more vocal then the people we deal with daily. It is the parent's responsiblity to shield the child from harm, words, signs are harmful to the child.
I have been around long enough to remember the early days of the CI, and will agree that the deaf/Deaf community has not always been open to the idea of implantation...either for adults or children. I have also seen this attitude change and become more and more accepting toward those that make the choice for themselves or their child. I can honestly say that I do not know a single deaf individual that would, today, reject a deaf child or that child's hearing parents, simply because that child has a CI. I do not know a single deaf individual today that would reject another deaf adult simply because they had chosen to undergo a surgical procedure to provide access to sound, even if it is not a personal choice they would make for themselves. Yet, I continue to hear hearing parents of deaf children claim that the deaf/Deaf community rejected them because their child was implanted.
Sorry that is not true in my case. I was rejected by another deaf teacher. She felt I did not want to be deaf and could not accept my implants. She makes comments that now here comes the hearing teacher. I have gone out of my way to show her I am still me. My hearing aids just didn't work for me anymore.
Here is my question: Is it really the deaf/Deaf community that is rejecting hearing parents and deaf children with CI, or is it the hearing parents themselves who are continuing to set their child apart from the deaf/Deaf community?
It might be both. One rejection can keep the parents away from the community. These are little children we are discussing, parents want to protect them from harmful words.
In discussions of education, I am still seeing hearing parents make statements such as, "Well, the experience of a deaf adult does not apply to my child, because my child is different. He/she has an implant. It is not the same as it used to be." In discussions of language, I am still seeing hearing parents say, "Well, my child no longer needs sign language, because my child now has a CI, and he/she can hear more than children with HA could ever hear." In discussions of the psycho-social issues of growing up as a deaf child in a hearing environment, I am still seeing parents make the statement, "Well my child will easily integrate into the mainstream because my child has a CI. Better hearing and better oral skills will mean that he/she will not experience the same problems as an adult who grew up without a CI."
My experiences are nothing like the children. It is different. But I do hear more than with a hearing aid ever.
For 20 years, I have been hearing these very same comments come from a wide variety of hearing parents of implanted children. And for the same 20 years, I have seen the deaf/Deaf community try to reach out to these parents, relate the painful and negative experiences they have lived through and overcome, only to see these hearing parents of implanted children reply, "Well, I'm sorry, but it will be different for my child." What I have not seen, over the past 20 years, is a great deal of difference in the educational achievement, the linguitic competency, or the psycho-social well being of these kids. I have not seen that it is different for the deaf child with a CI any more than it is different for the deaf child that grew up with a digital hearing aid instead of an analogue.
I am 39 with 36 years being deaf. It has not changed that much. There are still people who place judgement on others. Since I have experience with analogue, digital and CI, yes they are very different. The educational data I don't know. If the child is working without an IEP or 504, the data is not there.


What hasn't changed very much at all is the experience of the deaf child. We have seen more and more deaf children with CIs mainstreamed, but we have not seen a decreased need for accommdations that deaf children have always needed in the mainstream. We see deaf children with CIs growing into deaf adults with CIs, but we have not seen a decrease in the number that develop close and abiding friendships with other deaf once they are out of their hearing parent's home. We have seen deaf children with CI learning sign language as adults because their hearing parents insisted on an oral only environment, and we are still seeing reports of them saying they wished they had been given ASL as children. We see deaf children with CI gowing up and getting married, and we still continiue to see that a deaf adult (no matter what technology they use) will still be more likely to marry another adult with hearing loss than a hearing partner. We are seeing deaf children with CIs graduate from high school, despite having been mainstreamed their entire educational career, with literacy rates that fall well below the norm for the hearing students. We see deaf children with CIs grow into deaf adults with CI and still remain underemployed. We see deaf children with CIs enter into their adoloescent years unprepared to complete the transition of separation from the parent, and continue to experience social problems and relationship problems that destroy their self esteem and their sense of identity. We still see deaf adults that have been implanted for many many years that complain of being caught between hearing and deaf worlds, and not feeling as if they belong to either. They are still telling us that they do not fit with the hearing because, despite the advantage of a CI, they were never able to integrate with that group because they missed too much of what went on. They are uncomfortable with the deaf because they were never given the opportunity to associate with other deaf, to learn a visual language, to find the bond of being the same as those with whom they spend their time. As a consequence, they are not "different" than one group, and "alike" another. The feel different with both groups and where ever they go. We see deaf children with CI growing into deaf adults who have no idea what their career options are, because they have never been given the opportunity to observe successful deaf role models in all walks of life. They only know that, because they have a CI, they still can't do some of the same things that their hearing peers can do, but see it as more restricting on their choices because they have never been given an example of what a deaf adult can do, and what deaf adults all over the country do, on a daily basis.
I fit into my own world. The one I created for myself.
Why is this continuing to happen? Because hearing parents are saying, with ever increasing numbers as the rate of childhood implants go up, "My child is different. My child doesn't need the deaf community, because my child will function, in all ways, the same as a hearing child. My child will have better speech skills. My child will receive a mainstream education. My child will grow up with hearing kids. My child will be different from all the other deaf children that have ever grown up before!"
the hopes and dreams parents have for their children is why. Didn't you have high hopes and dreams for your child? I have them for my daughter. My mom always told me, I can do anything I put my mind to. She supported me and provided the best she could.
B]

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It is bad to take a few individuals and assume that their beliefs represent the whole population.

I have to say something here though. I am not quite sure why some deaf people are upset at hearing parents HERE on AD. Isn't the fact that they made the effort to come on AD and listen to other deaf people show that they do want to interact with the deaf community? They don't even have to come here at all nor talk to other deaf people AT ALL. It seems to me that they don't reject the deaf community, but rather they just defend their choices on their child. To me, rejection of the deaf community is not even interacting with them at all, not defending your choices for your child.

I agree and what happens when they experience rejection again. It pushes them away again and again. Or it validates their opinion of the community. The reason to keep their child away. The only thing is this is not a complete view of the Deaf Community.
 
It is a concern.


My parents made sure I got both. I mainstreamed from a deaf school to a public school

I took algebra, English, history, in mainstreaming
Other classes I took at the deaf school.

A split placement like this is a great solution to the issue of education, as well as the psycho-social needs of children. I wish we saw more of them.
 
I think that is a very good point. Why would a parent want to put their child in an enviroment with kids who are so far behind? That is why I chose not to put my child in TC. The students were unable to use sign or speech, why would I want my child is on level in a class that is moving way too slow, with children who have no language? I was lucky that we had another choice, but 10 years ago there wouldn't have been. I would have mainstreamed my child too, rather than put them in that Deaf school.

You are making a generalization about Deaf schools that simply cannot hold up to scrutiny. And, we are not so much discussing the issue of education, but the issue of hearing families being willing to interact with and socialize with deaf/Deaf individuals for the purpose of providing their deaf child with exposure to Deaf Culture. The educational environment is only one way this is accomplished, and the educational environment exposes only the deaf child. What about the parents and the siblings? When we place all the impetus on the Deaf School to provide social and cultural exposure for the deaf child of hearing parents, we take away some of the time that could well be spent in classroom instruction. I continue to hear parents say, and some teachers on this forum, that the parent is the child''s first teacher. Whyt is it that parents are not making the effort to learn and teach their deaf children about deaf history? Why is it that parents are not making the effort to develop social contact with deaf families?
 
I always said "Came to our program" not to "me"...

I have one who was failed by the oral only approach and he is catching up...thank god! I am working my ass off to work with him to make up for what he has lost and so has the other teachers who have had him prior to me. He is all caught up now. He worked hard too and I applaud him. He deserves it big time.

Let's move on.

Now, why do many parents deny their children the opportunity to learn ASL and to meet other deaf/Deaf children? Is it cuz they think the Deaf community will harrass them or what?

Thanks for bringing us back on topic. The intent of this thread is to discuss the social and psychological, not to mention linguistic, benefits of a hearing family with a deaf child having integrated social relationships with deaf individuals and families.
 
This thread is not really about why CI is awesome/not so awesome, but rather how and why hearing/deaf people reject each other. However, you and Buffalo just showed a perfect example of rejecting each other. Buffalo "rejected" faire jour for her actions towards the child because she feels that a surgery on a baby is not worth the risk especially when she has seen deaf people thrive without CI. Faire jour, in another thread, has noticed that people are giving her shit for implanting her child, and Buffalo is one of them, so Buffalo added fuel to the fire, even though s/he is simply showing his/her own opinion in a diplomatic way. Parents (hearing or not) are more sensitive about their choices towards a child, so several comments from a community about how they think that the parents are doing the "wrong thing" may be enough for the parents to reject the community. (Not faire though because she IS teaching her child ASL and plans to make the deaf community a big part of her daughters life.)

Making a statement regarding a personal opinion regarding the choice of implantation is not, and I repeat, not a rejection of the individual who has made a choice different from the one we ourselves would make. That is my whole point. We have got to stop seeing difference of opinion as rejection of the individual. It is not one and the same.

I personally can say, without a shadow of a doubt, that Buffalo would never reject a child or an adult with a CI that came to the deaf community looking for friendship, support, and knowledge. She has her opinion regarding the surgical procedure and the devise. She is quite capable of separating that from the individual. The CI does not determine who the individual is as a person, nor does it determine acceptance or rejection. Faire Jour has assumed that she is being rejected simply because a deaf individual has make a statement regarding her personal opinion on CI. That is definately not the case. She is simply stating her opinion of the technology. As long as we continue to bring the discussion back to who would decide to implant and who wouldn't, we are missing the bigger picture. If one sees rejection in every differing opinion, one will find rejection. It is a self fulfilling prophecy.
 
I believe many hearing parents want their deaf child to be a part of the whole world. Perhaps, the rejections towards hearing parents approach by going oral/CI route makes hearing parents think that the Deaf Community is only separating themselves from the majority, the hearing world.

I have read certain deaf people actually believe that it's wrong for hearing parents to keep their deaf children at home. They think it's a child's right to live in a deaf school with other deaf children. I think this is a ridiculous comment. Being away from their parents just to be with other deaf children full-time? Parents love their children just like hearing children. They'd rather take care of them over the deaf school system. I think this is one example of separation from the hearing world.

In many ways, I have thought that deaf schools and other resources programs were mainly to help prepare children to be in the mainstream system not stay in the deaf or resources program.

You are correct, Clearsky, in that the deaf educational programs are intended to provide a child with what they need to function in the wider society. However, it takes more than learning to read and write to be able to fundtion in the wider society. It takes providing a child with an environment that allows them to pass through the developmental stages on schedule, to become comfortable with their own identity and their own deafness, to develop a healthy self image through exposure to others that share their characteristics and to adult role models who have "been there", and therefore, being able to transfer those skills into carry over into being able to travel between cultures...both hearing and deaf. That is where the social experience comes in. That is where developing relationships with deaf families and deaf individuals comes in. It is not something we can just stick a child into at school and expect that all problems will be solved. It is something that we need to do as families. A parent telling a deaf child that they love and accept them just the way they are doesn't mean much to that child if the hearing parent doesn't demonstrate it. A hearing parent that has not taken the time to develop even one friendship with a deaf person is not demonstrating accceptance to that child, and the child will most definately see the difference between what they are being told, and what the parent demonstrates by their own actions.
 
Not all of students at Deaf schools live there. My brother didnt. He came home daily and wasnt kept away from the hearing world. Too many misconceptions about Deaf schools out there..that's the problem.

Yes, deaf schools have their problems like public schools do.

What's wrong with being with other deaf kids? It seems like deaf kids arent good enough for each other?

We are gonna be honest here so I want to know why is keeping deaf children away from other deaf children ok but keeping deaf children awya from other hearing kids is not. Tell me what's wrong with this picture?

As did my son. I relocated so that he would be able to attend a Deaf School as a day student. Almost every week-end, a residential student who was unable to get home every week-end came to stay with us for the week-end. My son also spent overnights at other student's homes. That is what I am talking about. Social ties that extend far beyond the boundaries of a class room and into the lives of the children and their families.
 
Making a statement regarding a personal opinion regarding the choice of implantation is not, and I repeat, not a rejection of the individual who has made a choice different from the one we ourselves would make. That is my whole point. We have got to stop seeing difference of opinion as rejection of the individual. It is not one and the same.

Very true, that's why I said "rejected". However, it is hard to distinguish between someone who is against CI and someone who is against CI AND would alienate the child with a CI, especially online. If I was a parent and decide to do a CI on my child, it would only take a few comments (especially if unprovoked) about how a CI on a child is barbaric, etc, to make me worry about my child being in that environment.

Consider the following responses (Just using CI as an example for an issue):

"Hi. My name is Jane. I am a mother of a 2 year old child. I would like to find out more information about what you think of a CI"
"I think implanting a child is wrong in my opinion."

vs

"Hi Jane here. I'm a mother of a 2 year old who was born profoundly deaf. I just implanted my child."
"I think implanting a child is wrong in my opinion."

Same answer, but different emotion provoked.
 
No, it's not the same way because the real world is not like that. I can choose to say, "I am not working with hearing people because that's too limiting." Today, we can go to social groups just to be with others like us if we choose like this forum AllDeaf to share a common understanding.

But the point is, that socialization process needs to begin in childhood, and needs to be a family involvement. If you wait until a child is an adult, the negative consequences of a limiting social experience are already firmly in place.
 
Yes I understand, but you're assuming that only hearing people go to "hearing schools". There was one other deaf child in my elementary school, plus a vision impaired child. I don't mean ethnic backgrounds, I mean ALL backgrounds including other kids with a disability. In fact, I would say that I was limited in terms of interacting with kids from a low income household since I went to an expensive private school. It was a wake up call when I went to college and realized that not everyone can afford to fly. Same concept.

The majority of deaf schools have children that not only are deaf, but have been diagnosed with other disabilities, as well.
 
It's not about being a role model. It's about being with everyday people. We can be a role model ourselves, too. Why should kids with disabilities be separated? What is deafness so different from other disabilities? Should all people with wheelchairs be with others who use a wheelchair? Should a few black people in a majority white school be transferred to a majority black school because of their culture background?

It is very much about role models. A deaf child cannot imagine success for themselves if they have never seen a successful deaf person. A Black child cannot imagine success for themselves if they have never seen a successful Black person. A blind child cannot imagine success for themselves if they have never seen a successful blind person. A child needs role models to imagine the possibilities for themselves as they grow up. If all we provide are hearing role models, we show a deaf child what a hearing person can grow up to do, but we do not show them what a deaf person can grow up to do. If you think children don't realize this as they go through their childhood years, you are sadly mistaken.
 
I've had my share of fights

To be honest I have been into more fights in a mainstreamed school than I have been in a deaf school. :hmm:

I think that can generally hold true for any child who is different in any way. Unfortunately.
 
Now I'm hoping I don't sound silly but majority of deaf children have hearing parents so they are more less likely to be exposed to deaf family members
And to the deaf culture

Majority of black people have Other black family members so they are exposed more to their culture.


Make sense??

Exactly. We have to step outside of our own comfort zones to embrace something that is not present in our every day lives. For the hearing family with a deaf child, that would be Deaf Culture. They already have the hearing perspective in their daily lives and existence. They have to step outside what they know and what they are comfortable with, and be willing to be taught a different cultural perspective, and integrate that with their own.
 
Yes, you're reinforcing what I'm saying. You are "rejecting" the hearing parents who are implanting their child because you don't think its worth the risk, among the many other reasons you just stated. Same thing as hearing parents rejecting you for implying that they are wrong to do this to their own child. And it's possible that they consider "you" to be a representative of the Deaf community, especially if this happens only a few times from other people.

I'm going to ask you to step back for a moment and try to separate Buffalo's feelings regarding the CI from the "rejection" of a deaf individual (adult or child) who comes to the community looking for friendship and understanding. Just because Buffalo does not agree with implantation does not mean that she is rejecting all who have chosen that path.

It would seem that it is all too easy to place the focus on a devise, rather than on the person using the devise. They are two separate things.
 
There you go. "There are some who abused the deaf people legally by putting a knife on some of us" ... that kind of rhetoric is what is causing much friction.
Nobody is forcing CI against the will... For the youngest children, the parents take the decision. It is not forced against the will of the child...
That could only happen if the child is old enough to realise the procedure & implication.


Keep in mind that most hearing people don't have any contact with d/Deaf people, let alone a view of them. I would say all deaf people have a view towards hearing people.

And that is the problem in a nutshell. It doesn't have anything to do with a CI.
 
Good start of a thread...
Of course the answer is "No". But not because all of the examples you lay out about how hearing parents are behaving... That view is very one-sided..

The statements you make regarding hearing parents basically point where according to you the problem is.. With those parents.
Basically, you don't really ask a question, you accuse..

But, that's fine... still a good start....

I will remind you, don't even start with the word "accusation". It is possible to state feelings without making anyone else have to be responsible. It is possible to discuss the topic of cultural exposure without accusing. Accusations are not a part of this thread. Both sides need to stop being so defensive and looking at things from an accusatory position and just attempt to understand what the other is saying. People are not understanding becasue they spend their time trying to figure out how to defend themselves against some perceived "accusation." That is why I called for honesty in this thread. If you cannot be honest regarding your own behaviors and your own motives, then you have no business attempting to contribute to this discussion, because all you will be doing is looking for someone else to blame.
 
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