It it really the deaf/Deaf community?

[NorCal20]

[rubs my eyes] good posting!

 

[Daredevel7]

That is what it seems to me when the school officals tell parents that they need to put their deaf child in an oral school. It seems to me that many parents don't question it.

The deaf adults who were on the recieving end of the education and the school officals who decided on what kind of education the deaf students should have - Which ones carry the most weight?

I believe it is the deaf adults who have the most weight but they are least likely listened to. Many deaf adults complained about the quality of education for the deaf and about lack or little usage of ASL in school for long time. The changes are very slow in coming. Who run the Deaf Education? Of course, they are mostly hearing people. I want to see the deaf schools stay on but the education need to be improved. My reason for the deaf schools is deaf kids need the deaf networking. The deaf networking is the safety net. A deaf child can go traveling in both worlds. (I have a hearing friend at home and all those cousins.) If something goes wrong in one of the worlds for that person, that person still have the other world to rely on.

I am going to take a risk and possibly offend people, so I'm sorry in advance.
I can see why hearing parents would take doctor's advice over deaf adults. Doctors are presumed have seen a lot of deaf children and the end results from a unbiased perspective, supposedly. So they are "experts" on the majority of deaf people. When deaf adults tell the parents "Hey! Don't do this! I was struggling big time without ASL. You MUST teach that child ASL!!! I grew up being forced oral, my parents would NOT let me sign, and I was severely delayed. When I learned ASL, my life changed!" I can see why hearing parents do not take them seriously for the following reasons:
1) They probably would think that their parents are bad since the child was obviously struggling and having a hard time.
2) The "few" extremes are all about ASL only, so even if deaf people disagree with only ASL, they are still promoting ASL and it seems more of an agenda than a genuine concern.
3) Unfortunately, what deaf adults may not realize is that while they are telling the parents this, they have quite not so great English skills (I don't mean speaking, I mean writing too). I understand that a lot of people (hearing or not) have bad writing skills and ASL is different from English grammar, but it's hard to convince someone that ASL will help a child when the person doing the convincing has bad grammar skills.

Of course, I am not saying that ALL deaf people who do ASL have bad grammar skills or anything, or that bad grammar skills = not so bright. I am talking about first impressions here (or even the 2nd impression). It seems to me that the most of the eloquent people here in AD are either hearing or deaf/oral raised (but pissed off about how he/she was raised)/early mainstreamed.

SHOOT!! I GOTTA GO TO WORK!!

 

[shel90]

I am going to take a risk and possibly offend people, so I'm sorry in advance.
I can see why hearing parents would take doctor's advice over deaf adults. Doctors are presumed have seen a lot of deaf children and the end results from a unbiased perspective, supposedly. So they are "experts" on the majority of deaf people. When deaf adults tell the parents "Hey! Don't do this! I was struggling big time without ASL. You MUST teach that child ASL!!! I grew up being forced oral, my parents would NOT let me sign, and I was severely delayed. When I learned ASL, my life changed!" I can see why hearing parents do not take them seriously for the following reasons:
1) They probably would think that their parents are bad since the child was obviously struggling and having a hard time.
2) The "few" extremes are all about ASL only, so even if deaf people disagree with only ASL, they are still promoting ASL and it seems more of an agenda than a genuine concern.
3) Unfortunately, what deaf adults may not realize is that while they are telling the parents this, they have quite not so great English skills (I don't mean speaking, I mean writing too). I understand that a lot of people (hearing or not) have bad writing skills and ASL is different from English grammar, but it's hard to convince someone that ASL will help a child when the person doing the convincing has bad grammar skills.

Of course, I am not saying that ALL deaf people who do ASL have bad grammar skills or anything, or that bad grammar skills = not so bright. I am talking about first impressions here (or even the 2nd impression). It seems to me that the most of the eloquent people here in AD are either hearing or deaf/oral raised (but pissed off about how he/she was raised)/early mainstreamed.

SHOOT!! I GOTTA GO TO WORK!!

I disagree...

AD is just a small spectrum of the Deaf community so IRL, I know hundreds of Deaf people who were raised with ASL whose English r as equal or far superior than mine.

Again..ASL is not the root of the English problems. It is the lack of having full access to language during the early years or teachers not knowing how to teach them using 2 languages appropriately.

There r so many ADers who grew up with ASL who have excellent English skills. I won't name them here since I don't have their permission to do so but there are numerous of them.

Many Deaf people value the imoprtance of ASL and the value of having both. It is not an agenda but giving children a healthy balance of exposure to both so that way the children r aware of what's out there. The numerous of deaf who do not see ASL as a critical factor usually do not know ASL themselves. That was what I noticed.

Deaf children can be able to make the decision on what mode of communication to use when they get older. I strongly believe it is our (the adults) responsibility to expose them to a full toolbox and both worlds.

As for Dr's knowing best for deaf children, I disagree because they do not usually take the holistic view of children but rather as the pathological view...which is to "correct' the condiation (deafness) the best they can.

Do drs have the experience and knowledge of educating deaf children in the educational system? My answer to that is no...they only know and understand the inner workings of the ears, the cause of deafness, how to do medical procedures, and diagnose. They do not have the proper training on the education of the deaf and therefore they are crossing the line when telling parents what educational/communication methods they should take. Just like I don't know how to make a diagnosis, correct the diagnosis, prescribe, and do a medical prodecure. It would be unethical of me as a teacher to do that just like it is unethical of drs to make these recommendations for the educational setting for the children but yet, many people see that as being ok.

If Deaf people r accused of telling the parents what to do..then drs' are just as guilty since they do the same by telling parents to take the oral route only.

Most Deaf people IRL and here on AD advocate for the use of both. I have yet seen an ADer advocate for ASL only.

 

[jillio]

I'm not saying all but it would be cool if family/relatives are willing to learn sign language then they are able to communicate with deaf children, don't you think so?

Exactly. No one is claiming that everyone (as in all) must learn sign language. However, we are saying, and its not just me as a hearing parent, but what I have observed after many years of watching the situation play out, those closest to that child and with the most contact with that child should accept the responsibility for doing so. People are constantly making the recommendation that all deaf people learn to speak in order to communicate with hearing people. In the general society that is the way it usually plays out. If a deaf person does not speak, they use the language of the hearing in a different mode (e.g. writing). But that is the general society, and those people to not have a direct and close connection to that deaf person. However, the family is a place where all members need to feel that their needs are attended to, that other family members are willing to take the extra step to make sure that everyone in the family has their needs attended to, and where a deaf child can communicate freely about their feelings, their perceptions, and their ideas. In fact, being able to do that is critical to their development from a cognitive and emotional perspective. When a child is provided with that kind of environment where they feel cared for and that their needs are understood and addressed, it gives the the skills they need to deal with wider society who may not be so concerned about the needs of the deaf.

 

[jillio]

I am going to take a risk and possibly offend people, so I'm sorry in advance.
I can see why hearing parents would take doctor's advice over deaf adults. Doctors are presumed have seen a lot of deaf children and the end results from a unbiased perspective, supposedly. So they are "experts" on the majority of deaf people. When deaf adults tell the parents "Hey! Don't do this! I was struggling big time without ASL. You MUST teach that child ASL!!! I grew up being forced oral, my parents would NOT let me sign, and I was severely delayed. When I learned ASL, my life changed!" I can see why hearing parents do not take them seriously for the following reasons:
1) They probably would think that their parents are bad since the child was obviously struggling and having a hard time.
2) The "few" extremes are all about ASL only, so even if deaf people disagree with only ASL, they are still promoting ASL and it seems more of an agenda than a genuine concern.
3) Unfortunately, what deaf adults may not realize is that while they are telling the parents this, they have quite not so great English skills (I don't mean speaking, I mean writing too). I understand that a lot of people (hearing or not) have bad writing skills and ASL is different from English grammar, but it's hard to convince someone that ASL will help a child when the person doing the convincing has bad grammar skills.

Of course, I am not saying that ALL deaf people who do ASL have bad grammar skills or anything, or that bad grammar skills = not so bright. I am talking about first impressions here (or even the 2nd impression). It seems to me that the most of the eloquent people here in AD are either hearing or deaf/oral raised (but pissed off about how he/she was raised)/early mainstreamed.

SHOOT!! I GOTTA GO TO WORK!!

Ahhh....but that perception is false. My son's pediatrician, despite having been in practice for over 25 years when my son came along, had never had a deaf child as a patient. And he was a pediatric nuerologist by specialty. Many, many ENTs have a thriving practice without ever having seen a prelingually deafened child. Likewise, when they do encounter a prelingually deafened child, their focus is on the pathology of the deafness and how to take medical steps to correct the pathology, not on the long term consequences of deafness. I fully understand why hearing parents would place a high degree of confidence in the physician, but it also needs to be kept in mind that he/she is a doctor, and not an educator, not a deaf person (usually, although there are deaf doctors) and certainly has never been a deaf child. While their expertise is valuable, it is also limited to the area of their expertise. That area is medical.

 

[Daredevel7]

Ahhh....but that perception is false. My son's pediatrician, despite having been in practice for over 25 years when my son came along, had never had a deaf child as a patient. And he was a pediatric nuerologist by specialty. Many, many ENTs have a thriving practice without ever having seen a prelingually deafened child. Likewise, when they do encounter a prelingually deafened child, their focus is on the pathology of the deafness and how to take medical steps to correct the pathology, not on the long term consequences of deafness. I fully understand why hearing parents would place a high degree of confidence in the physician, but it also needs to be kept in mind that he/she is a doctor, and not an educator, not a deaf person (usually, although there are deaf doctors) and certainly has never been a deaf child. While their expertise is valuable, it is also limited to the area of their expertise. That area is medical.

I'd like to clarify my previous post. I was attempting to look from the perspective of a clueless parent. Some people, including myself, think that hearing parents do not simply reject the deaf community ONLY because of the few people who criticize them. I have personally seen deaf people saying to hearing parents "Please do not let the few critical deaf people get to you. The majority of the deaf population do NOT share their opinions." and that's great except...... it does not seem to be working. So I am attempting to speak out the possible reasons why hearing people reject the deaf community including the reasons that may be hurtful. Now you and Shel responded to me as if I believed in those reasons why hearing people do not take the deaf community seriously, but that's not what I'm saying. I know some of you firmly do not believe that any of the reasons I stated are true BUT I'm asking if it is possible that hearing parents may have these perceptions (even if its false)?

The reason why I am trying to list all the perceptions is because perhaps hearing parents feel that they may be too insulting to admit to the deaf community. It's easier to work with one when you know their fears.

 

[shel90]

I'd like to clarify my previous post. I was attempting to look from the perspective of a clueless parent. Some people, including myself, think that hearing parents do not simply reject the deaf community ONLY because of the few people who criticize them. I have personally seen deaf people saying to hearing parents "Please do not let the few critical deaf people get to you. The majority of the deaf population do NOT share their opinions." and that's great except...... it does not seem to be working. So I am attempting to speak out the possible reasons why hearing people reject the deaf community including the reasons that may be hurtful. Now you and Shel responded to me as if I believed in those reasons why hearing people do not take the deaf community seriously, but that's not what I'm saying. I know some of you firmly do not believe that any of the reasons I stated are true BUT I'm asking if it is possible that hearing parents may have these perceptions (even if its false)?

The reason why I am trying to list all the perceptions is because perhaps hearing parents feel that they may be too insulting to admit to the deaf community. It's easier to work with one when you know their fears.

Oh..thanks for clarifying. I thought it was from your view and perspective.

Yea..it is something to think about.

 

[jillio]

I'd like to clarify my previous post. I was attempting to look from the perspective of a clueless parent. Some people, including myself, think that hearing parents do not simply reject the deaf community ONLY because of the few people who criticize them. I have personally seen deaf people saying to hearing parents "Please do not let the few critical deaf people get to you. The majority of the deaf population do NOT share their opinions." and that's great except...... it does not seem to be working. So I am attempting to speak out the possible reasons why hearing people reject the deaf community including the reasons that may be hurtful. Now you and Shel responded to me as if I believed in those reasons why hearing people do not take the deaf community seriously, but that's not what I'm saying. I know some of you firmly do not believe that any of the reasons I stated are true BUT I'm asking if it is possible that hearing parents may have these perceptions (even if its false)?

The reason why I am trying to list all the perceptions is because perhaps hearing parents feel that they may be too insulting to admit to the deaf community. It's easier to work with one when you know their fears.

I agree with you 100%. I don't think that a few critical people are the reason that the majority of hearing parents avoid the deaf community, either. But they don't seem to be very forthcoming regarding the actual reason, either.:shrug:

 

[shel90]

I agree with you 100%. I don't think that a few critical people are the reason that the majority of hearing parents avoid the deaf community, either. But they don't seem to be very forthcoming regarding the actual reason, either.:shrug:

I think Daredevel's and my theories are more likely true.

 

[jillio]

I think Daredevel's and my theories are more likely true.

Agreed.

 

[deafskeptic]

Bingo!!!

I was thinking last night about this whole thing and I was thinking how Jill and I got accused of driving the parents away.

Well, I want to clear that up. When parents first join here, I am welcoming and supportive of them. I dont question nor criticize them for implanting their children or the educational choices they made for their child even if they say they chose oral-only. I remain nuetral about it. The reasons I got tough on them was when they made disrespectful comments about the Deaf community, ASL, give the implications that having speech skills is superior to ASL, that hearing kids are superiror to other deaf children, or simply make nasty comments about me. I wont sit back and be passive. I will speak up if I see anyone making these statements. Why should I sit back and let them say these false statements? They speak up if anyone spreads misinformation or makes nasty comments about CIs..that's their right and I support that. However, I feel when I speak up about them making false or nasty comments about ASL, the Deaf community, and Deaf schools, I am "responsible" for driving them away from AD?



Sure, I made comments to some of them that could have had better wording or stated in differently but guess what? They also are as guilty of the same thing too.

I have always took responsibility for my actions whenever I made comments that were wrong or unfair and apologized publicity. I have yet seen some of you do the same.

So, dont talk about Jillo and I being responsible for "driving" away the parents.

*not you, Buffalo* LOL!

I don't recall ever saying the two of you drive parents away. Even if jillio and you weren't around, I don't think many of those parents would stick around anyway. There are times when I think I'm too polite for my own good.

And we need people like you to speak out against those who would put down ASL even though there are times when I wish jillio would phrase it differently so she doesn't get in trouble with mods... or even get banned.

However, she is not at al the only one.. Rick has done his share as well. I still have not forgotten that post by cloggy about ASL either.

 

[shel90]

I don't recall ever saying the two of you drive parents away. Even if jillio and you weren't around, I don't think many of those parents would stick around anyway. There are times when I think I'm too polite for my own good.

And we need people like you to speak out against those who would put down ASL even though there are times when I wish jillio would phrase it differently so she doesn't get in trouble with mods... or even get banned.

However, she is not at al the only one.. Rick has done his share as well. I still have not forgotten that post by cloggy about ASL either.

It wasnt you...not at all.

Thanks..yea, I wish Jillo would phrase her statements differently too but she is a grown woman and only she is responsible for how she addresses others.

Yea, exactly...and I will continue to speak up if anyone spreads misinformation or lies about the Deaf community and ASL to correct and educate them. When it comes to putting down the Deaf community and ASL, then it is a different story cuz I resent that.

 

[BradB08]

I think the parents are to blame more than deaf culture itself.

Especially those who delude themselves into believing that their CI implanted children will fit in better with that they define as "normal". They just can't stop being selfish long enough to consider the needs of their child.

It's as if the child is an extension of the parents' insecurities and if the child is Deaf and the parents insist on rejecting deaf culture while implanting their kids, they are adding fuel to the fire.

I'm puzzled as to why they insist on being a part of this community, though they may reject the idea that their child is Deaf in the first place.

As controversial as this may sound, this is how I feel about people who insist upon CIs as the "final solution" to deafness without considering the feelings of their children. Children deserve a choice.

Honesty hurts but it's much better than living a lie.

 

[Daredevel7]

I think the parents are to blame more than deaf culture itself.

Especially those who delude themselves into believing that their CI implanted children will fit in better with that they define as "normal". They just can't stop being selfish long enough to consider the needs of their child.

It's as if the child is an extension of the parents' insecurities and if the child is Deaf and the parents insist on rejecting deaf culture while implanting their kids, they are adding fuel to the fire.

I'm puzzled as to why they insist on being a part of this community, though they may reject the idea that their child is Deaf in the first place.

As controversial as this may sound, this is how I feel about people who insist upon CIs as the "final solution" to deafness without considering the feelings of their children. Children deserve a choice.

Honesty hurts but it's much better than living a lie.

Not to point out the obvious, but....... didn't you just reject hearing parents and their choices just now?

 

[BradB08]

Not to point out the obvious, but....... didn't you just reject hearing parents and their choices just now?

More like rejecting selfish parents that will not allow their children to have a say in what they want.

My parents gave me more freedom than I think I deserved (looking back on some of my life choices) and I decided my own course from those choices.

 

[Cloggy]

.....
Hearing parents need to let go of the obsession of being judged as a "good parent" or a "bad parent".

Where do these hearing parents get those ideas from?

.....
The issue is not one of good or bad, but of being adult enough to put your own feelings aside in order to take the perspective of your child. It's called empathy, and if we don't develop it for our own children, who can we develop it for?

Empathy.... Yes! that's what parents are looking for....

 

[Grummer]

Where do these hearing parents get those ideas from?

Easy, it stems from the medicalisation, informed from hegemony, that manifests itself as guilt, despair. This pressure to conform is a strong impetus of guilt and confusion. Not easy to ascertain if the parents 'are' giving their deaf child a chance ' to life', that is a life to push them to talk or a life to let them be (while worrying about sub-standard education that pervail in 'most' deaf schools, which are argued to have 'nothing to do with 'inferiority' of sign langauge). So hence i understand what Jillio meant by parents pressuring themselves (intentionally or not) to be 'good parents' or 'bad parents'
- this equally applies to parents who are devoted to straight oralism.

Empathy.... Yes! that's what parents are looking for....

I wouldnt be so sure if i would call this empathy, it is a poorly understood word, especially if used in this topic.

 

[jillio]

I don't recall ever saying the two of you drive parents away. Even if jillio and you weren't around, I don't think many of those parents would stick around anyway. There are times when I think I'm too polite for my own good.

And we need people like you to speak out against those who would put down ASL even though there are times when I wish jillio would phrase it differently so she doesn't get in trouble with mods... or even get banned.
However, she is not at al the only one.. Rick has done his share as well. I still have not forgotten that post by cloggy about ASL either.

I'm trying, deafskeptic, I'm trying!

 

[jillio]

It wasnt you...not at all.

Thanks..yea, I wish Jillo would phrase her statements differently too but she is a grown woman and only she is responsible for how she addresses others.

Yea, exactly...and I will continue to speak up if anyone spreads misinformation or lies about the Deaf community and ASL to correct and educate them. When it comes to putting down the Deaf community and ASL, then it is a different story cuz I resent that.

I am making every attempt not to respond in kind to the attacks that usually set me off.

 

[jillio]

Not to point out the obvious, but....... didn't you just reject hearing parents and their choices just now?

I didn't see it that way, really. He did not say they weren't welcome here, or that they weren't welcome in the deaf commuity based on their choices, but rather that the attitudes behind the behaviors needed to be examined as more of a cause of the tension.

And we all also need to keep in mind that disagreement with a choice is not a personal rejection.