I Refuse

[deafbajagal]

, deafbajagal! It's perfectly understandable here.

Hmm... it's so irony that they expect you to speak/hear in order to fit in their hearing world yet you weren't "invited" or never feel like you belong there. But it doesn't work out like that as a part of ugly reality.

I'm deaf and use ASL but couldn't speak so it's always difficult being alone in the hearing world especially my hearing family at times like suppertime, holiday times, etc - same boat as yours. Many hearing parents' deaf kids experienced like that exactly what you and I did. Never enjoy any moments except few god ones... yep, it ain't so fair to you and us to be put in. It doesn't need to be like that... I know, I know. But we have no choice but accept as it is at most times. (yet it sucks lol)

So it's a very reason why deaf friends and deaf people stay close as much as possible because of this that. So those would never be alone and have to face any discrimination and such sorts that displease them.

We indeed have seen some oralism and/or mainstream graduates getting more involved in the deaf community wherever ASL exists or is being openly used. I really think it's great for them so it helps build their self-esteem and etc.

I agree...the experience (the good and the bad) of deafness brings deaf people together, hence forming the deaf communities and ultimately deaf culture.

 

[deafbajagal]

Deafbajagal, I'm totally in your shoes. Sucks sometimes that we can speak as well as we do. Because for as deaf as I am, being in a hearing world is not easy. Whether it's with family, talking to perfect strangers in a restaurant (waitstaff) or at the gas station (cashier), and a thousand other scenarios. Can't get a decent job (I currently freelance and do okay with that) but the moment that it comes out in an interview that I'd need interpreters for group meetings, etc. I see their eyes blank out. Interview over. Basically. I used to get that same stare when I would ask for a TTY at work, especially if I would be responsible for making calls to print vendors, etc. Now that one part isn't as big a deal because I can use my own cell phone and relay, even the internet, to make calls. We all know how that part goes. I'm feeling irritated with my family these days .. My parents have a deaf kid, and they don't seem to know it. My boyfriend's entire family, their girlfriends, wives, etc. all text me and email me all the time. They're great about it! On the other hand, my parents have a cell phone. They refuse to text me. They claim they can't remember how, even after I and my sister have shown them and written down the instructions. It is NOT that hard. They call my IP v/m number and leave me a message. The message is usually what? "Call us back, please". ??!!! They couldn't text me or leave me a detailed message? No, they have to wait until I can get on the Relay or get on my computer to call them. And they don't like to take my calls from the Relay if I'm doing it off my Blackberry "because it's too slow". So for as great as I can communicate, I'm still a deaf person lost in a hearing world.

Yeah...it's all about making THEIR lives easier, huh? (sad, quiet tone)

 

[deafbajagal]

you beat me to it, i was going to say something like that.

id throw in some odd bits and pieces just for foods for thoughts, and i'd admit it now, what i write is not perfect, im just chucking down idea a mixture of from my own experiences and put in some form of pesudo-social-science which has yet been investigated for academic discourses. So here goes...

But yep, now we need to expand on much mor than just family-centred experiences, and yes we all have this 'what happened out in the world' stuff too, but the links dare i say, the links are not strong in two-fold ways.
That is, the linking from missing out on things (hearing culture even?!) information, the know-how to be 'on time' for your age-appropriate-naughtyness-curiousity, (i know this is wierd to say this but tell Deaf kids stay away from marijuana, is not the same thing as telling a hearing kid, also the curiousity is even more, more so its more dangerous just to say straight out no to it, like i think deaf kids NEEDS to be more savvy on how to deal with manipulative kids, so yes the families/parents should be far more supportive in giving ideas on how to be a 'tough nut', wise, strong, self-contented, but not neccessary a know-all or taught to be arrogant (often that is a result of mistaken identity-attachment with already-arrogant silbings- but again often the deaf dont know 'why', as the hearing siblig would (cus chances are the hearing sibling is being 'shaped' to maybe take over family business later in life, whereas the deaf person is not given the same importance , if at all)

Yes, all that above can not be shared orally, because it is almost impossible and higly straining on a deaf person to recieve it all in the oral manner. no two ways about it. it just surppresses the 'real deaf person's heart down more hidden behind the puppet's mouth. awful.(while I am intrigued at why some of those 'highly successful oralist' take places on the 'board' for the Deaf-based organisation and proclaim they are 'Deaf" , really gets up my nose...they are bloody liars, and probably criminals against the Deaf-dom'

No im not a hardened Deaf, I dont believe in Deaf philiosophy like a crazed fanatic, it has its place, but and Iam also truely firmly against oralism as well it done me no good, I am isolated now as an adult I just hate it, its a fate that come from all this ridiculous priority which hearing people has place on soley on oral communication environment. It has to change. The stuggle already begun, however it is getting more trickier to overcome and eradicate the 'germs' of oralist pretending to be Deaf, taking place as an Elitist in the Deaf Board of members (why the fucking hell is that? they are a 'good job' because of good money, ego, fun to take control of the lesser educated Deafs?' whatever... or on a different slant, they may rather "be confused" WHILE, there are some silly Deafs (from the DODA background) who thinks they should be kings/queens as well, when they are being cultural-bullies.

Maturity is something that we have to be mindful as well be wary of how "mental health" or "deaf mental health" could sometimes actually be inappropriate, as i sometimes thinks its a form of 'shutting them up' and ignore the real problem of social abuse they had faced as a child or as an adult 'as failure' in the eyes of 'then-hopeful' hearing family... I just can't help it, something's is not right. Almost like, 'lets control this angry deaf person, teach them management, talk to them ' find out what make them tick' and show them how to be calm, but all this doesnt fit the bigger picture on the what Jillio's said that the big picture is where "the fallicies of true integration based on the ability to use voice" has its real effects, which is far far more dangerous than what hearing people (and D/deaf people) has estimated its magnitude of its impact.

Sorry if this is bad english I will refine this later in a future post but for now, time is pressing and i just want to contribute to this thread by throwing in a differenet light. but yeah Oralism sux big time.

I liked the term "social abuse." Interesting!

 

[sabasushi2]

Interesting thread. I myself do not speak, either. Reasons are many:

1) Let's face it...me talking is akin to a blind person trying to paint a picture. No matter how much the effort, it'll be crappy anyway.

2) Even if my speech is perfect, it's kinda moot because of one little detail: I can't read lips to save my life. So it's basically an one-way street. Lip-reading is a knack that you either have or don't have.

3) How many deafies out there have emotional baggage with speech dating from childhood? These endless sessions with speech therapists? Parents and teachers pushing you to speak, to mimic a hearie? It has gotten to a point where speaking make you feel like a f**king "goody-goody shoes". At times, it even makes you feel filthy, as if your deaf identity is being compromised (kind of like a devout Catholic woman being forced to strip-dance in public, for example).

4) Ever notice how people (including hearies -- like these with cerebal palsy for example) who had speech therapy, talk in a very distinctive way that practically screams SPEECH THERAPY? The way they move their lips, how they place their tongues *just so* -- you could practically hear a tiny speech therapist in their heads commanding them to do that and do this. A friend and I used to joke that you could tell the dental histories of these people because they have a tendency to open their mouths wide while speaking.

5) Ever notice how really different the spoken English is from the written English? For example, the written English has only five vowels, but the spoken English has a zillion vowels, like short a, long a, et cetera. And spelling don't always match the pronouncation. And let's not talk about accents...

I think I've gone long enough on this.

 

[Grummer]

1) Let's face it...me talking is akin to a blind person trying to paint a picture. No matter how much the effort, it'll be crappy anyway.

i know of a Blind painter finishing an Arts degree and paint! also a court cae pending to let her finish the course. not sure the details, appearently she' s quite an artist, art painting does NOT have to be like Remebrant, can be like Pollock.

 

[Dixie]

Been down that road. Having good speech skills is a blessing and a curse all at the same time.

People will treat you normally because they assume you are normal by their hearing standards. Then your not able to understand them, and when you explain, they begin to shun you like leper, like your deafness is contagious.

And lets not forget the times that they wanted you to speak but when you spoke it wasn't perfect so they spent an entire conversation complaining that you 'run your words together' or 'you mumble' or 'I cant understand you'. And your original outgoing message is lost in transmission, so you give up, turn around, and walk away defeated once again trying to do what the hearies want you to do.

The family gatherings where you pretend to understand but you don't, you can't follow the conversation. The way your family 'orders' you around or force you to sit at the kids table to 'babysit'. (God I had to sit with the little ones until I moved out of the house the first time)

And oh yeah lets talk about the days your family gripes at you for 'spending too much time on the Internet'. Well ummm, it's kinda difficult to communicate with you and when we do 'communicate' it usually involves you telling me I'm wrong and your'e right, or I can't understand you or you ignore me and starely blankly at the TV - at which I am unable to understand due to you refusing to use the captions. Ive found it easier to communicate on the Internet because it is the written word, and it enables me to engage in conversations with other people.

I rarely talk to anyone at work because I am HoH. I rarely talk to anyone at home because I am HoH. Am I only allowed to go through life with very little interaction with others and an ongoing feeling of isolation? I think not.

The hearies created this 'monster', they have to deal with it. It is their oralist philosophy that has become my making and undoing.

When will the hearies step back and realize that the all oralist approach is only making a lot of angry, depressed, and isolated deafies. Sure their speech is near perfect, but it still doesnt make up for the fact that they STILL CAN'T HEAR! I guess they assume that speaking well means your'e cured of deafness. WRONG!

 

[frogsign]

Wow---this is all such powerful stuff. I would really like to use your expressions to write an article on this "social abuse" (such a great term!), but I don't want to do it without anyone's permission. I work for an agency that was established to educate and inform the hearing world about Deaf life and culture, and also advocate for change in the community. Everything that's been said here I have seen in the education system and in the community. The kids with speech skills get the short end of the stick because people ASSume that means they can hear.

My friend (Deaf) and I are starting up a website and I would love to write an article about this subject; or better yet....would one of you want to do it? Then we can post it?

 

[Deaf Mortgage]

Wow---this is all such powerful stuff. I would really like to use your expressions to write an article on this "social abuse" (such a great term!), but I don't want to do it without anyone's permission. I work for an agency that was established to educate and inform the hearing world about Deaf life and culture, and also advocate for change in the community. Everything that's been said here I have seen in the education system and in the community. The kids with speech skills get the short end of the stick because people ASSume that means they can hear.

My friend (Deaf) and I are starting up a website and I would love to write an article about this subject; or better yet....would one of you want to do it? Then we can post it?

If you start up a website or write a book collection of all topics. Please make sure you get media release signature from each story. That way you can legally use their story. Some might not want to share to public.

Smiles.

 

[tienchii]

According to everyone I meet, I can speak like a hearing person. Occasionally my words have a hint of an accent. Other than that, it's "perfect."

Oh, good. Thanks, but no thanks.

Fourteen years of intense speech and aural-verbal training is in the toliet and I'm flushing it. Round and round the water goes down.

Speech never helped me. It made other people's lives easier. The more I learned how to speak, the more I became isolated from the world. I could tell people my feelings, thoughts, needs, and wants. But no one stopped to consider...I wanted to know their feelings, thoughts, needs, and wants, too. I learned to speak...but no one listened. I learned to listen...but no one would look at me. And I learned to cry...and no one heard me.

My childhood memories such as Thanksgiving and Christmas memories are so painful that I block myself from remembering. Those moments at the dinner table where I'm sitting there, laughing along (and wondering what was so funny?)...while inside I was hurting. I resented, and still resent, my family...especially my mother. I missed out. So who gives a damn that I can say the words out of my mouth? Especially when I could never really speak my mind.

People say if I learn to speak, then I'll be ready for the hearing world. How ironic is it that because I learned to speak that the hearing world became unreachable. It was not until I was able to use American Sign Language again that I was able to be fully part of the world. It was then I was able to really speak my mind.

Yeah, I can speak. Thanks, but no thanks.

wow, you really hit the spot. i totally relate to you.

 

[frogsign]

I would never do anything without permission---believe me.

 

[deafskeptic]

When speech hides your deafness, do you consider that a good thing or a bad thing?

Thanks for replying.

I consider that a bad thing. sorry it took me so long to reply!

 

[deafbajagal]

Kacee - this is the thread I was referring to.

So you're not alone, girl. It's okay.

 

[Daredevel7]

I find all of this really interesting. I can't say that I am unhappy with the way I was raised (pure oralism) but I'm sure people think I don't know better since I am not really part of the deaf community. I do have one question though. A lot of people say that they feel isolated in the hearing world and blames it on their oral upbringing. I am not sure how knowing ASL or whatever other method you prefer would connect you more to the hearing world? Are you saying that knowing ASL would boost your self esteem or are there other factors here?

 

[deafbajagal]

Knowing and using ASL gained me access to the world...before I didn't know what people were saying. Now I have a medium to use to allow the fullest access of what is going on.

I'm pretty good at lipreading and can carry on a good conversation as a pure oralist...but even during those times I'm always worried about what I'm missing or pronoucing wrong. With ASL, I feel very free to express myself and I know I can understand what is being said.

 

[Jiro]

Knowing and using ASL gained me access to the world...before I didn't know what people were saying. Now I have a medium to use to allow the fullest access of what is going on.

I'm pretty good at lipreading and can carry on a good conversation as a pure oralist...but even during those times I'm always worried about what I'm missing or pronoucing wrong. With ASL, I feel very free to express myself and I know I can understand what is being said.

My first day of ASL class is this tuesday evening.

 

[Daredevel7]

Knowing and using ASL gained me access to the world...before I didn't know what people were saying. Now I have a medium to use to allow the fullest access of what is going on.

I'm pretty good at lipreading and can carry on a good conversation as a pure oralist...but even during those times I'm always worried about what I'm missing or pronoucing wrong. With ASL, I feel very free to express myself and I know I can understand what is being said.

I understand that part. I just meant in terms of talking to hearing people who don't know ASL, hence the "hearing world". It seemed implied that a lot of oral deaf people wished they knew ASL earlier so they wouldn't be as isolated in the hearing world. But I guess they meant they would be more connected to the deaf community and immerse themselves in it? And/or their self esteem would be boosted and they would be more "ready" to deal with communicating with hearing people?

 

[Jiro]

I understand that part. I just meant in terms of talking to hearing people who don't know ASL, hence the "hearing world". It seemed implied that a lot of oral deaf people wished they knew ASL earlier so they wouldn't be as isolated in the hearing world. But I guess they meant they would be more connected to the deaf community and immerse themselves in it? And/or their self esteem would be boosted and they would be more "ready" to deal with communicating with hearing people?

I don't believe it has anything to do with self-esteem. It's about being recognized as a person fully-participating in a community. When you're oral deaf - you have 2 worlds... the hearing and deaf worlds. Obviously it's very hard to participate in hearing world. If you don't know ASL, then you're useless in deaf world. End result? you're very lonely. Yes on AD is nice but nothing replaces physical human interactions.

Why not learn ASL as 2nd language? You get to be in either world.

 

[deafbajagal]

My first day of ASL class is this tuesday evening.

Really? That's awesome!

 

[deafbajagal]

I understand that part. I just meant in terms of talking to hearing people who don't know ASL, hence the "hearing world". It seemed implied that a lot of oral deaf people wished they knew ASL earlier so they wouldn't be as isolated in the hearing world. But I guess they meant they would be more connected to the deaf community and immerse themselves in it? And/or their self esteem would be boosted and they would be more "ready" to deal with communicating with hearing people?

Interpreters do come in handy.

The first time I ever "heard" my father expressed that he loves me was through a sign language interpreter. It was priceless.

 

[Daredevel7]

I don't believe it has anything to do with self-esteem. It's about being recognized as a person fully-participating in a community. When you're oral deaf - you have 2 worlds... the hearing and deaf worlds. Obviously it's very hard to participate in hearing world. If you don't know ASL, then you're useless in deaf world. End result? you're very lonely. Yes on AD is nice but nothing replaces physical human interactions.

Why not learn ASL as 2nd language? You get to be in either world.

Ahead of you there, Jiro. 5th ASL class on Monday. Already went to a deaf social. Very interesting. About the self esteem stuff, I was referring to what web730 said:

"We indeed have seen some oralism and/or mainstream graduates getting more involved in the deaf community wherever ASL exists or is being openly used. I really think it's great for them so it helps build their self-esteem and etc. "