A Parent's joy versus animal's torment.

[hoichi]

[

Lots of people don't feel that way. Some do, fine, some don't, also fine. Some get CI, some don't. That's fine. Some learn ASL, some don't, I guess that's fine too. It'd be better if more learned ASL though, it does help..

Well, sure...but plenty of us do feel this way, most have been bullied into submision.and silence. That schtick doesnt work with me. So thus im still standing.

I own a car because I want to move faster than I can run or ride a bike. Sometimes it's nice to drive..

Cool

LI'm not ignoring it, I'm just pointing out that the power relationship, and advice from people who have influence doesn't mean the two are tied as closely as you say they are..

They are tied very close, given a baby is involved..and docs, and a maricle cure for a manufactured curse..

Audiologists identify hearing loss. In babies, you don't know they're deaf until they've been tested. In adults, you don't realize your hearing loss is as bad as it is until it's been tested. And hearing loss could be caused by other more threatening problems (like a tumor). An Audiologist or ENT can diagnose the problem and rule out more dangerous root problems. From there, it's up to you what you want to do, but you need to know there's hearing loss and rule out the potential life disrupting causes..

Yes. But besides that really us Deaf who dont wear aids dont see adioligists..we dont really have a reason too, if aids arent involved besides rare things so on..the most common reason an adiologist is seen is for aids.

So you're really just about kids getting surgery then? Is that it?.

Thats most of it..really thats the line Many of us have taken. Adults can do what they wish. Its thier head. That stated i believe sign to be the better technology all round. So the rest to me is just snake oil feeding of of fear.

There's no conspiracy. .

Oh yes there is...

People just want to help, and some people appreciate that type of help. The ones who don't, need not seek or accept it. As for the babies, their parents get to make that decision. That's how it works. Kids don't get to make decisions independently until they're 18 (or emancipated). Parents can screw their kids up in a billion different ways. Implanting them with CI isn't the worst thing a parent can do to their deaf baby. Personally, I'd recommend they teach their deaf baby sign and get them a CI. Seems like the more options you can give your kid the better. Then when they're ready, let them choose how they want to live. do they want to sign full time and keep the process in their dresser? Do they want to give up on ASL? Leave it truly up to them... .

Thats just a justification..sure there are worse fates...but there is beter

Some people like wearing clothes, other people don't. But wearing clothes, even if the clothing sales person tells you you shouldn't learn ASL, doesn't prevent you from learning ASL. Using a CI, doesn't prevent you from learning ASL, even if the CI sales man tells you not to learn ASL..

Right. But the policy of those who implant the baby will be taken and head by those parents, most people are sheep.

As our conversation goes on, and gets deeper, you're demonstrating and receiving first hand evidence how your arguments push people away instead of bring them closer..

Thats a load of rubbish. My extreme view (roll eyes) not to implant, isnt nearly as extreme as the view and push to implant. Im flattered you feel im that powerefull. To sway you to accept ci.but we both know that rusbish.

I am pro-ASL, I was unsure about CI, especially in kids, but now you have me arguing adamantly against you. Your extreme views, and conspiracy theory like arguments can easily push people to the opposite extreme. Instead of helping your cause, you're making it worse..

I have you doing?...right, and just imagine if i can have a successfull guy like you dancing as i am without even trying, what a white coated doc peddling a maricle cure to two scared parents with a Deaf baby could do?

This isn't a conspiracy, it's not an orchestrated plan to destroy the Deaf community..

Oh yes there is. Another book you should read, is disabaling the Deaf community. Ive also recomended for you, the mask of benevolence, by harlane lane. (He sits on the academy francai and is no small contender) and the war against aign language. Your statements are demonstrating a lack of knowlege of us, and our history and what is actually occuring with us in the present. Its understandible as your new, thats why rather then making closed statements you would be better served to read what ive recomended.

It's not a direct attack. It's one possible solution to a difficulty that does exist. ASL is another solution. Using two solutions is better than using only one.

Those solutions are for two different plms.one ci is oralisms final solution, the other sign is our solution to the actuall plm.

 

[Reba]

Is it over yet?

 

[Jezie]

I don't really think it's surrendering thought, it's just changing your mind. If someone is ignorant to some facts or other aspect of [thing], then they learn those facts or whatever, it makes sense that their opinion could change naturally. People aren't so rigid that they never change their minds.

You do realize that this is very close to saying that a minority group does not agree with the opressing or majority group because they are uneducated. Now within this argument that translates to hearing doctors, educators, politicians, and businessmen all know better than the deaf people whose lives these decisions affect....
Before implanting a baby, do they say hey here is a deaf event why do you not go talk to them... or hey here is a number to a deaf man woman that would be glad to talk to you about growing up deaf? Or do they instead trout out and show this fancy device for their poor unfortunate child?

I do agree, there is almost certainly discrimination against Deaf when seeking jobs. It's illegal though, there are plenty of people who feel it's wrong. Fixing it... that's a challenge. The more insiders the Deaf community can get the better. But a lot of Deaf who find good jobs are oral, or have CIs, and they make more of the compromises to fit in to the hearing world than the hearing world makes to bring them in.

Again... compromises.... compromises is The give and take on both sides... not just one.

The Deaf community needs more advocates on the inside. Instead of railing against the establishment, become the establishment and change it from the inside.

Agreed...

No you shouldn't get a CI to make others happy. Getting a CI is a personal decision. If you think it can make you happier, that's when you'd get it. Having others around you happier tends to make a person happier, but compromising fundamental beliefs or doing something you're really against negates all that, usually.

I agree others around one should make one happy ... but experience shows that on this not many are happy if the deaf do not "try" to become normal...

Nature is brutal... life is a cycle, and death is part of it. The decisions between sacrificing a small amount now to save a lot later is the single toughest ethical question ever. With pure logical, the choice is obvious, you always save the great number. But there's more to it than that, which is why humanity has struggled with these questions for a long time. We, as a species, are only becoming more humane, more aware. Eventually this stuff will stop, but not while it's seen as a necessity to preserve our own lives and well being.

In part, it's because we don't have necessity demanding we make these sacrifices as often anymore. It's because someone else already made them in the past for us. If it weren't for those sacrifices, we'd be a lot less well off than we are now.

Research with testing on animals, while a brutal act, is still something that advances our us. Right now, it's still an unfortunate necessity.

Are you saying you support brutal test like these even though no information is given on how it is expected to help people?

I agree about the brutality of life, and try to teach my kids the simple fact to thank the life given and respect the fact that that is an animal on uour plate... but at the same go we have the "pointy teeth" for a reason (liked that but by the way )

 

[Nic]

You do realize that this is very close to saying that a minority group does not agree with the opressing or majority group because they are uneducated. Now within this argument that translates to hearing doctors, educators, politicians, and businessmen all know better than the deaf people whose lives these decisions affect....
Before implanting a baby, do they say hey here is a deaf event why do you not go talk to them... or hey here is a number to a deaf man woman that would be glad to talk to you about growing up deaf? Or do they instead trout out and show this fancy device for their poor unfortunate child?

No I'm saying the exact opposite as demonstrated in the examples I used. It's the majority that's oppressing that's in the wrong. Equality and freedom is what the US is about. Oppression is the opposite of that. Of course some minorities could be in the wrong, like the Manson family for example.

My argument (supported by research) is that the doctors are both right and wrong. They're right that CI early is better than later, but if they're actually against ASL as hoichi claims, they're also wrong. ASL helps, there's research supporting this.

People went to a doctor, doctors fix medical conditions. There are alternate ways to deal with thing too, and smart people explore those as well as doctors.

Again... compromises.... compromises is The give and take on both sides... not just one.

that's what I'm saying. Doctors should be pushing for CI because it can help, the community should be pushing for ASL because it can help. Neither should be saying the other is horrible because the experience is different for everyone.

I agree others around one should make one happy ... but experience shows that on this not many are happy if the deaf do not "try" to become normal...

I didn't mean to imply others should make you happy. I meant being around happy people itself makes a person happier. As a result I advocate for making those around me happier to increase happiness for all.

Are you saying you support brutal test like these even though no information is given on how it is expected to help people?

I do actually, yes. Scientists and researchers don't torture animals for fun. I'd rather we spend energy and resources going after the people who do. This serves a greater purpose. I'm a logic driven person who believes in the greater good. 16 cats isn't a big sacrifice. If you want to help cats focus on preventing the release of strays and the prevention of feral cats.

The simple fact is millions of animals die every day. If a death can serve a greater purpose, the death is more valuable than typical. It's the same reason people serve their country and risk their lives, greater good.

I agree about the brutality of life, and try to teach my kids the simple fact to thank the life given and respect the fact that that is an animal on uour plate... but at the same go we have the "pointy teeth" for a reason (liked that but by the way )

I eat meat and I try not to be ignorant about where that meat came from, or hypocritical about the circle of life and the nature of our reality. As a meat eater I'd be a hypocrite to say hunting is wrong. My consumption of meat results in far more animal deaths per year than a typical hunter will take down. It's the same reason I accept animal farming. It's inhumane, but its necessary for the time being.

Which leads to the same reason I accept animal testing. We eat them, so using them in a similar way (maybe even a slightly more humane way) to advance the longevity or quality of life for millions or billions to come seems fair. If I'm willing to accept the sacrifice of 9B chickens every year to feed people, why wouldn't I accept the death (or discomfort) of a few thousand test animals every year?

 

[Nic]

Is it over yet?

Haha, we're all being civil and I think we're all enjoying the conversation, at least. I'm actually blown away by how well its been going. Hasn't gotten toooo repetitive yet either, I think. :-p

 

[Nic]

Yes. But besides that really us Deaf who dont wear aids dont see adioligists..we dont really have a reason too, if aids arent involved besides rare things so on..the most common reason an adiologist is seen is for aids.

But even at the first appt, when identified as Deaf, the docs make recommendations. So at that first appt. The docs will be giving advise. By this logic even 1 hearing exam is too much. It's not choosing CI, its choosing to see a doctor that you're arguing against. That'll never fly. Tell people not to go to a doctor when their baby can't seem to hear... That just can't work. You can't win more hearing parents of Deaf babies over that way, its impossible.

Thats most of it..really thats the line Many of us have taken. Adults can do what they wish. Its thier head. That stated i believe sign to be the better technology all round. So the rest to me is just snake oil feeding of of fear.

This argument is like that thread about age of consent where you said the law is clear. Parents are legally responsible and kids don't get independence until 18. They get the legal say, not you, me, or anyone else.

Thats just a justification..sure there are worse fates...but there is beter

It doesn't matter because it's their right. Parents are allowed to mess up their kids. We don't want government mandates decisions. If that were to be CI would win and ASL could lose.

Right. But the policy of those who implant the baby will be taken and head by those parents, most people are sheep.

Then after the first appt its too late. If doctors have that much influence its over from the beginning. Impossible to win this way.

Thats a load of rubbish. My extreme view (roll eyes) not to implant, isnt nearly as extreme as the view and push to implant. Im flattered you feel im that powerefull. To sway you to accept ci.but we both know that rusbish.

By extreme I mean the conspiracy theory part. I'm a partially informed new comer and I don't understand this argument and push against it and am tempted to dismiss it at crazy conspiracy theory stuff. For average hearies? They won't give that the time of day, and they'll make a CI appt the next day.

I have you doing?...right, and just imagine if i can have a successfull guy like you dancing as i am without even trying, what a white coated doc peddling a maricle cure to two scared parents with a Deaf baby could do?

this is the opposite of what you think. What you have me doing is getting defensive and digging in on the opposition. If docs generated that response nobody would get a CI.

Oh yes there is. Another book you should read, is disabaling the Deaf community. Ive also recomended for you, the mask of benevolence, by harlane lane. (He sits on the academy francai and is no small contender) and the war against aign language. Your statements are demonstrating a lack of knowlege of us, and our history and what is actually occuring with us in the present. Its understandible as your new, thats why rather then making closed statements you would be better served to read what ive recomended.

I admit I need to read more about the history. But history can be dangerous too. It's not the past right now, moods and minds have changed. Focusing on the present. Finding a strategy that can work. That's the better route for this debate, its a way to exert more influence instead of driving people away.

Those solutions are for two different plms.one ci is oralisms final solution, the other sign is our solution to the actuall plm.

They can and do coexist. CI and what oral is possible when needed, but ASL and other accommodations still too. It's easier to initiate change on the inside than the out.

 

[Jezie]

No I'm saying the exact opposite as demonstrated in the examples I used. It's the majority that's oppressing that's in the wrong. Equality and freedom is what the US is about. Oppression is the opposite of that. Of course some minorities could be in the wrong, like the Manson family for example.

Help me through a slow brain lol I am trying to see your side... in a few days I may laugh at how slow I am...
Okay... you say that when you have two groups that disagree the smaller group should follow the facts and change their mind... yet the world is not black and white...as much as that would be nice... most topics are not a right or wrong, yes or no, do or do not quandary....

My argument (supported by research) is that the doctors are both right and wrong. They're right that CI early is better than later, but if they're actually against ASL as hoichi claims, they're also wrong. ASL helps, there's research supporting this.

People went to a doctor, doctors fix medical conditions. There are alternate ways to deal with thing too, and smart people explore those as well as doctors.

One can argue that smart people listen to their doctors as well... I actually agree that ci and asl are a good mix... i do not agree with implanting childern though... but this mirrors many of the points Hoichi makes so will leave that be... to avoid redundancy

that's what I'm saying. Doctors should be pushing for CI because it can help, the community should be pushing for ASL because it can help. Neither should be saying the other is horrible because the experience is different for everyone.

Then for the most part you are happy with how things are? For this is what happens... for the most part ...at least when the implanted individual is allowed around the deaf...
Know a girl since boot...her kid is deaf... they implant and follow doctors orders no sign... not allowed sign... not allowed around sign... it works to a point... but doctors (maybe not all...but the ones i know and know of are) are pushing for oral only...no sign...

I didn't mean to imply others should make you happy. I meant being around happy people itself makes a person happier. As a result I advocate for making those around me happier to increase happiness for all.

We actually mostly agree here, I just worded it funny... sorry about that... being around happy people will make one happier... but when the people around you try to force what their level of happiness is, is where issues arise. But no, others are not to be responsible for ones happiness...

I do actually, yes. Scientists and researchers don't torture animals for fun. I'd rather we spend energy and resources going after the people who do. This serves a greater purpose. I'm a logic driven person who believes in the greater good. 16 cats isn't a big sacrifice.

It is good that you can admit this... and have good rationality for your reasons...

I eat meat and I try not to be ignorant about where that meat came from, or hypocritical about the circle of life and the nature of our reality. As a meat eater I'd be a hypocrite to say hunting is wrong. My consumption of meat results in far more animal deaths per year than a typical hunter will take down. It's the same reason I accept animal farming. It's inhumane, but its necessary for the time being.

Off topic, but had to nibble at this tidbit a bit...
A hunter who is not taught well leaves waste...while factory farming uses and reuses "by product"... curious how does your consumption of meat cause more animal deaths than a hunter.... along with additional waste a hunter is (generally) only suplimenting the food that s/he purchases at the store...

Which leads to the same reason I accept animal testing. We eat them, so using them in a similar way (maybe even a slightly more humane way) to advance the longevity or quality of life for millions or billions to come seems fair. If I'm willing to accept the sacrifice of 9B chickens every year to feed people, why wouldn't I accept the death (or discomfort) of a few thousand test animals every year?

Again, good rationality...I would want to review the numbers... but I believe that number is actually quite higher... but I could be wrong...

 

[Nic]

Help me through a slow brain lol I am trying to see your side... in a few days I may laugh at how slow I am...
Okay... you say that when you have two groups that disagree the smaller group should follow the facts and change their mind... yet the world is not black and white...as much as that would be nice... most topics are not a right or wrong, yes or no, do or do not quandary....

No its the smaller group that needs to find allies and educate the large group. The more people from the larger group the smaller group gains the easier it becomes. There's just a lot of ignorant people out there that need to think before doing stupid stuff (Like saying "you're too pretty to be Deaf" which apparently happens).

One can argue that smart people listen to their doctors as well... I actually agree that ci and asl are a good mix... i do not agree with implanting childern though... but this mirrors many of the points Hoichi makes so will leave that be... to avoid redundancy

True, but they also know doctors are human and make mistakes. Many doctors will disagree too, that's the whole point of a second opinion. Dogmom has a thread that shows how smart she was in exploring different opinions and getting educated about hernias before committing to a treatment. I'd like to think anyone with a bit of experience does the same sort of thing, or at least Google's and reads some stuff.

The main reasons I decided childhood implants are OK is because research shows CI are more effective when they get them early. It makes sense to me too, young brains adapt more easily. It also gives the kid more choices later instead of robbing them from choices.

Then for the most part you are happy with how things are? For this is what happens... for the most part ...at least when the implanted individual is allowed around the deaf...
Know a girl since boot...her kid is deaf... they implant and follow doctors orders no sign... not allowed sign... not allowed around sign... it works to a point... but doctors (maybe not all...but the ones i know and know of are) are pushing for oral only...no sign...

No I wish more hearing parents of Deaf babies learned ASL with their Deaf children. There are too many cases where they don't do a bibi approach and go the oral/ make them hear only route. Without sign is worse. Sign means the communication burden is shared. Research also shows that kids who learned sign do better academically in HS and college.

So my opinion is early CI is fine, but ASL should be a must. Bilingual Bicultural.

We actually mostly agree here, I just worded it funny... sorry about that... being around happy people will make one happier... but when the people around you try to force what their level of happiness is, is where issues arise. But no, others are not to be responsible for ones happiness...

When someone tries to force their beliefs, I typically just smile and nod. Different stuff work for different people. I only get vocal if they are extra pushy or rude or just want to discuss. Then I'll challenge their beliefs occasionally.

If it's outright oppression, I go straight to challenge their beliefs mode though. Logically we humans can all coexist. Freedom and right to your own happiness so long as it doesn't trample on others happiness directly.

It is good that you can admit this... and have good rationality for your reasons...

Dont get me wrong though. I do also think it sucks. I actually think animals are self aware, don't deserve to be eaten, experimented on, etc. I just know I can't change it, and I don't think it can really be changed in the next few decades either. Eventually I think we'll science and technology animal slaughter away. I think that's for the better, but we have a way to go to get there.

It's like how we have a lot of war left. I think eventually people will be better educated, and more understanding of our differences and war we be part of our barbaric past. From what I can tell history suggests that we're getting more and more educated and more and more humane as a species. I think human future is bright and full of potential.

It's like growing up. You have to get through all the crap to become responsible, independent, level headed, etc. Humanity is still young.

Off topic, but had to nibble at this tidbit a bit...
A hunter who is not taught well leaves waste...while factory farming uses and reuses "by product"... curious how does your consumption of meat cause more animal deaths than a hunter.... along with additional waste a hunter is (generally) only suplimenting the food that s/he purchases at the store...

Animal waste in the wild is eaten by other animals or becomes fertilizer. I honestly don't know exactly how much meat I eat a year but in chickens alone it must be a hundred or so. Most bird hunters don't take down 100+ birds a year. And with deer, there's typically a clear cap on points or whatever. I don't eat too much beef, but maybe an average size deers worth?

It's really just a guess, but I base it on how much venison a buck puts in a freezer (I have family members who hunt, don't do it myself, never really interested me).

Again, good rationality...I would want to review the numbers... but I believe that number is actually quite higher... but I could be wrong...

Ya its probably more than thousands, but not billions like for food. Billions is just insane. More chickens are eaten in the US than there are people in the world. It makes sense, people eat 365 days a year, its just a startling number.

I'd half want to become a vegetarian on the principal of not killing, but its just not natural for us to not eat meat. We probably eat more than we should or need to though. And I'll admit I do enjoy a steak, burger, or even just some BBQ chicken.

It really is natural, killing. It's creepy though. And I do think we can rise above it eventually.

 

[hoichi]

[

QUOTE=Nic;2435563]But even at the first appt, when identified as Deaf, the docs make recommendations. So at that first appt. The docs will be giving advise. By this logic even 1 hearing exam is too much. It's not choosing CI, its choosing to see a doctor that you're arguing against. That'll never fly. Tell people not to go to a doctor when their baby can't seem to hear... That just can't work. You can't win more hearing parents of Deaf babies over that way, its impossible.ut.[/QUOTE]

Im not stating that at all. Im stating most people see audiologists for aids to hear. For those of us who dont wear aids, we dont really see adiologists. In.my experience anyway, if you dont wear glasses, would you see an optomotrist?
Ive never stated not to have socs look at you or any babies. Im not sure where you got that idea from.

This argument is like that thread about age of consent where you said the law is clear. Parents are legally responsible and kids don't get independence until 18. They get the legal say, not you, me, or anyone else.ut.

Ive never argued otherwise. The legality of parents putting ci into their kids heads has never been questiined. Yes its legal,

It doesn't matter because it's their right. Parents are allowed to mess up their kids. We don't want government mandates decisions. If that were to be CI would win and ASL could lose.



Then after the first appt its too late. If doctors have that much influence its over from the beginning. Impossible to win this way.
ut.

Well,buman beings are interesting creatuters, sme are easy to sell snake oil too, somenot. Some are taken.easy by advertising and marketing some not. Most are sheep, most just do as theyre told, most will trust a doc. Yes parents have the right to mess up theyre kids..thats a nice.comfort for the kids messed up.

By extreme I mean the conspiracy theory part. I'm a partially informed new comer and I don't understand this argument and push against it and am tempted to dismiss it at crazy conspiracy theory stuff. For average hearies? They won't give that the time of day, and they'll make a CI appt the next day.ut.

Well. First ill ask is forming a bussiness and eaeninf a profit a conspiricy? Are three or people involved in the organization, maintenence, and opperation of the bussiness? Ci is a billion dollor industry, with ties to goverment, as well as deep ties to the medical industry its a part up. It resembles.big pharma in all respects. Why is it hard to see human beinga at woek together. Ie conspiring in its growth?
You admit to not knowing the history. Before you claim no conspiricy exists. Educate yourself.
Further, you need to be aware, the Deaf faced and face havy prejeduce, in our schools in.some places up to the70s in others the 80s, we werent even permitted to use our own language, deaf hands were tied, sign was banned. Many people still living remember that. Dont wag a finger in here, wnd telk us no conspiricy exists withbour culture in its sights. We know full well what we as a people and culture hwve been through, go tell blacks there was no conspiricy from whites against them...and see how far you get.

this is the opposite of what you think. What you have me doing is getting defensive and digging in on the opposition. If docs generated that response nobody would get a CI.ut.

Your missing the point. Try again

I admit I need to read more about the history. But history can be dangerous too. It's not the past right now, moods and minds have changed. Focusing on the present. Finding a strategy that can work. That's the better route for this debate, its a way to exert more influence instead of driving people away.ut.

Mood mind.indeed have changed, thats never been argued otherwise. Your stating water is wet. Ok. Cool.
You need to free yourself from the cage of the medical paradigm. Once you do, you see what where trying to show you.

They can and do coexist. CI and what oral is possible when needed, but ASL and other accommodations still too. It's easier to initiate change on the inside than the out.

Then go inside and start the change. We will stay on the outside. We dont want to be assimilated. We dont want to be hearie half breads, we dont have curse, we have a Gift. we are Deaf!

 

[caz]

Hitler had genetic deaf killed in gas ovens CI would made no difference and still many people would do it now(truth definatly hurts)

 

[iKhan]

Honestly, I dont think most parent wouldn't care about this if they could get their child to hear. I'm sad to hear this. But there cannot be a progress without prices. This seems to be our price for getting CIs.

 

[ecp]

Hi ambrosia....
I wouldnt state being deaf is fine and dandy..deaf is still viwing oneself rhrough the hearie medical paradigm, as deafness as a curse, in need of a cure.
The gift of being Deaf isnt in the medical paradigm, the capital D the gift is our culture, language and community.
Cats cant sign can they?

The gift of being Deaf?
I'm all for ASL and inclusive education but when people educated in Deaf schools can't hold menial jobs because of the inability to communicate, that isn't a gift.
Deaf education isn't funded or implemented well and the level of literacy reflects that.
Giving kids oppornituities through hearing aids and cochlear implants isn't cultural genocide, it is removing restraints and allowing children to communicate with the world. Having a cochlear implant doesn't make me any less able to communicate in ASL. I got my CI a year ago as an adult and my hands still work BUT, I can also have a normal conversation with nearly anybody without needing to resort to writing or an interpreter.

I have tools (ASL and audition) and am empowered.

 

[ecp]

Hitler had genetic deaf killed in gas ovens CI would made no difference and still many people would do it now(truth definatly hurts)

Hitler learned about eugenics from americans and their forced sterilization of seemingly subpar (meaning not as good as "normal people") people.

The "genetic deaf" you refer to were students or "inmates" at German schools/asylums for the Deaf and they weren't killed in ovens, they were the test subjects for the T4 program which first used intravenous drugs to kill children but soon turned to gasses. Other groups were also included in the T4 program (mentally deficient, deaf, dumb, blind, retarded, psychotic, etc (all their terms)).
The ovens were used for burning the bodies of people killed by gassing.
Facts, they matter.

What you are saying is that getting a cochlear implant, or the opportunity to hear, is the same as being murdured by Hitler.
That is simply not true.
Germans at the time of the beginning of World War II were growing weary of living in an impoverished country and supporting "drains on society" which were anybody who didn't contrubute to society in a meaningful way. Deaf people were often instutionalized because diagnosis of deafness wasn't made until age 3 or 4 and by then, critical language development windows had closed. Schools and institutions for the deaf were meant for the "trainable" deaf, ie people who could be taught things like sewing or shoe repair.
The Nazi party and others first raised the idea that non-contributors (do not even begin to compare this idea with socialism or communism) shouldn't be supported (sound like any republican candidates you know? Or all of them). Their solution would become the "final solution". The final solution began with getting rid of those pesky disabled people and then those less desirable people like gays, Jews, gypsys, and other people they didn't like.

Caz- I doubt you have read this far but a cochlear implant is absolutely nothing like genocide. Not even a little bit.

 

[Jane B.]

Hitler had genetic deaf killed in gas ovens CI would made no difference and still many people would do it now(truth definatly hurts)

Hitler learned about eugenics from Americans and their forced sterilization of seemingly subpar (meaning not as good as "normal people") people.

The "genetic deaf" you refer to were students or "inmates" at German schools/asylums for the Deaf and they weren't killed in ovens, they were the test subjects for the T4 program which first used intravenous drugs to kill children but soon turned to gasses. Other groups were also included in the T4 program (mentally deficient, deaf, dumb, blind, retarded, psychotic, etc (all their terms)).
The ovens were used for burning the bodies of people killed by gassing.
Facts, they matter.

What you are saying is that getting a cochlear implant, or the opportunity to hear, is the same as being murdured by Hitler.
That is simply not true.
Germans at the time of the beginning of World War II were growing weary of living in an impoverished country and supporting "drains on society" which were anybody who didn't contrubute to society in a meaningful way. Deaf people were often instutionalized because diagnosis of deafness wasn't made until age 3 or 4 and by then, critical language development windows had closed. Schools and institutions for the deaf were meant for the "trainable" deaf, ie people who could be taught things like sewing or shoe repair.
The Nazi party and others first raised the idea that non-contributors (do not even begin to compare this idea with socialism or communism) shouldn't be supported (sound like any republican candidates you know? Or all of them). Their solution would become the "final solution". The final solution began with getting rid of those pesky disabled people and then those less desirable people like gays, Jews, gypsys, and other people they didn't like.

Caz- I doubt you have read this far but a cochlear implant is absolutely nothing like genocide. Not even a little bit.

The meaning I took from what caz said is that if CIs existed at the time of Hitler hearing via a CI would make no difference. You would still have been killed for being "genetic deaf"

 

[Reba]

. . .
Caz- I doubt you have read this far but a cochlear implant is absolutely nothing like genocide. Not even a little bit.

Wow, that's patronizing and rude.

You can't state your "facts" without a snide dig?

 

[hoichi]

[

The gift of being Deaf?
I'm all for ASL and inclusive education but when people educated in Deaf schools can't hold menial jobs because of the inability to communicate, d.

That is a plm of discrimination, as well as Deaf education. Interesting, since oralism held dominance in Deaf schools for close to a century, your just stating oralisms failure.

that isn't a gift.

That wasnt the gift i was refering to. Try again

Deaf education isn't funded or implemented well and the level of literacy reflects that.ed.

This is true, you should educate yourself on the history as to why,

Giving kids oppornituities through hearing aids and cochlear implants isn't cultural genocide, it is removing restraints and allowing children to communicate with the world.ed.

Right.and if we would of used the same idea of removing the restraints imposed by discrimination on blacks with a technological means rather then a legal and political one, should it have been used? The oppurtiunity bieng closed is due to discrimination, as for cultural genocide, it is very much the result of policies by porfessionals whithin the industry against sign language aquisition for children lest the revert back to bieng Deaf. This has been having a drastic impact on the level of fluency attained. Language and culture are connected deeply, attacking one, our language and preventing its flourishing in our youth, our future leaders, poets, story tellers, teachers, families, it seriously effects the other, our culture in every way.

Having a cochlear implant doesn't make me any less able to communicate in ASL. I got my CI a year ago as an adult and my hands still work BUT, I can also have a normal conversation with nearly anybody without needing to resort to writing or an interpreter.ed.

Normal conversation? Heres a patt on the back for bieng "normal", (roll eyes), indeed for you ci doesnt effect your ability to learn sign. If you are unable to descern the difference between you an adult. Getting a ci, and a newly born Deaf baby, or Deaf child, not much more for us to discuss.

I have tools (ASL and audition) and am empowered.

Heres another patt on the back...
(Roll eyes)
Good for you

 

[hoichi]

Hitler learned about eugenics from americans and their forced sterilization of seemingly subpar (meaning not as good as "normal people") people.

The "genetic deaf" you refer to were students or "inmates" at German schools/asylums for the Deaf and they weren't killed in ovens, they were the test subjects for the T4 program which first used intravenous drugs to kill children but soon turned to gasses. Other groups were also included in the T4 program (mentally deficient, deaf, dumb, blind, retarded, psychotic, etc (all their terms)).
The ovens were used for burning the bodies of people killed by gassing.
Facts, they matter.t.

Yes they do.

What you are saying is that getting a cochlear implant, or the opportunity to hear, is the same as being murdured by Hitler.
That is simply not true.t.

No one has stated this.

Germans at the time of the beginning of World War II were growing weary of living in an impoverished country and supporting "drains on society" which were anybody who didn't contrubute to society in a meaningful way. Deaf people were often instutionalized because diagnosis of deafness wasn't made until age 3 or 4 and by then, critical language development windows had closed. Schools and institutions for the deaf were meant for the "trainable" deaf, ie people who could be taught things like sewing or shoe repair.t.

The critical language window for auditory language was always closed. Due to deafness, in various degrees. The window for aquiring sign language deeply and in fluency was closed due to hearie ingrained audism and prejudice. Which dictated negative policies against sign language. Deaf kept sign language alive against hearie polices, and we did that in a number of ways, all of which were contrary to hearie policies in Deaf schools they controlled.

The Nazi party and others first raised the idea that non-contributors (do not even begin to compare this idea with socialism or communism) shouldn't be supported (sound like any republican candidates you know? Or all of them). Their solution would become the "final solution". The final solution began with getting rid of those pesky disabled people and then those less desirable people like gays, Jews, gypsys, and other people they didn't like.t.

Yes

Caz- I doubt you have read this far but a cochlear implant is absolutely nothing like genocide. Not even a little bit.

No one has stated they are the same or like. Toss your rudeness. Leave caz alone. If you want to pick on someone, im more then happy to play
You are aware genocide can take more then one form? Racial is one, which you are aware of, culural another clearly your not aware of. Perhaps its time for you to broaden your horizons and expand your self declared empowerment.
(Roll eyes)

 

[Nic]

Im not stating that at all. Im stating most people see audiologists for aids to hear. For those of us who dont wear aids, we dont really see adiologists. In.my experience anyway, if you dont wear glasses, would you see an optomotrist?
Ive never stated not to have socs look at you or any babies. Im not sure where you got that idea from.

You say CI is an attack on Deaf culture because doctors make a recommendation that kids not learn ASL. But deaf kids of hearing parents are going to see an ENT and AuD regardless as to whether they get a CI or not. It's that first appointment, when teh doctor says "You child has profound hearing loss" and then starts to make recommendations "here are your options..." that it's too late. You say that doctors making these recommendations is why CI is bad, but these recommendations come before CI. You've been arguing that doctors recommending against ASL is the death of ASL. So yes, you are arguing that by seeing a doctor even once, it's too late.

Ive never argued otherwise. The legality of parents putting ci into their kids heads has never been questiined. Yes its legal

And yet you were arguing that since it's legal (age of consent) it doesn't matter. So why now are you arguing against this legal act, but used the same argument (it's legal) to defend age of consent?

Well,buman beings are interesting creatuters, sme are easy to sell snake oil too, somenot. Some are taken.easy by advertising and marketing some not. Most are sheep, most just do as theyre told, most will trust a doc. Yes parents have the right to mess up theyre kids..thats a nice.comfort for the kids messed up.

This is why seeing a doctor even once makes it too late. It's not CI that's the problem then, it's seeing a doctor and having him recommend whatever the sheeple will believe that you don't want them to.

Well. First ill ask is forming a bussiness and eaeninf a profit a conspiricy? Are three or people involved in the organization, maintenence, and opperation of the bussiness? Ci is a billion dollor industry, with ties to goverment, as well as deep ties to the medical industry its a part up. It resembles.big pharma in all respects. Why is it hard to see human beinga at woek together. Ie conspiring in its growth?
You admit to not knowing the history. Before you claim no conspiricy exists. Educate yourself.
Further, you need to be aware, the Deaf faced and face havy prejeduce, in our schools in.some places up to the70s in others the 80s, we werent even permitted to use our own language, deaf hands were tied, sign was banned. Many people still living remember that. Dont wag a finger in here, wnd telk us no conspiricy exists withbour culture in its sights. We know full well what we as a people and culture hwve been through, go tell blacks there was no conspiricy from whites against them...and see how far you get.

Forming a business for profit is not a conspiracy. Conspiracy suggests cloak and dagger, hidden from the public, sneaky... Conspiracy is a term that gets associated with people who think Roswell has hidden aliens and the government is implanting us with chips while we sleep.

Mood mind.indeed have changed, thats never been argued otherwise. Your stating water is wet. Ok. Cool.
You need to free yourself from the cage of the medical paradigm. Once you do, you see what where trying to show you.

So if mood and mind have changed, why apply the same logic, same stereotypes, that existed in the past just because throughout history those problems existed? You're carrying those problems forward instead of leaving them in the past.

Then go inside and start the change. We will stay on the outside. We dont want to be assimilated. We dont want to be hearie half breads, we dont have curse, we have a Gift. we are Deaf!

You want things to be better for the Deaf community. You understand that Deaf education is underfunded. You know that these reasons drive people to mainstream their kids. Parents want kids to have the greatest chance for success. So long as mainstreaming leads to a greater chance of success, parents will choose it.

In order to lift up Deaf education, it needs money. Money comes from people who have it. The mainstream people have it. Turn them to your side, bring the money, bring the education, uplift the Deaf community. Make the world a better place for the kids, give them the opportunity to succeed.

Arguing against CI does none of that. It just further alienates and triggers a stronger opposite reaction from mainstream culture.

 

[Nic]

What you are saying is that getting a cochlear implant, or the opportunity to hear, is the same as being murdured by Hitler.
That is simply not true.

No one has stated this.

You sort of did state this, though, Hoichi.

Thats one way to frame them. Another is ci is a technology of normalization used and implented in cultural genocide

Caz didn't, in my opinion, though. I'm with Jane B. (and Reba) on the interpretation of what Caz said. I think she just meant
CI wouldn't have saved Deaf from Hitler's genetic cleansing, and I agree. Hitler was about artificially "cleaning up" the genetic variance in the human race... making a more "perfect" human.

 

[hoichi]

You sort of did state this, though, Hoichi.



Caz didn't, in my opinion, though. I'm with Reba on the interpretation of what Caz said. I think she just meant
CI wouldn't have saved Deaf from Hitler's genetic cleansing, and I agree. Hitler was about artificially "cleaning up" the genetic variance in the human race... making a more "perfect" human.

That is not what echo stated caz stated.
I was very clear in my statement. I even used "cultural genocide"
And i stand by my statment.