A Parent's joy versus animal's torment.

[Nic]

Allot more is needed. Frankly for profound Deaf born asl is what is needed. Contrary to the hype ci isnt the dazzle maricle it claims. Not for profound born. So really implanting Deaf and tossed in hearie school with no support, or soul crushing mainstream...its. short sited. The company still gets paid, the doc still gets paid. The parents think they have a maricle. The kid is screwed. I believe the ci in the above to be more harmfull.

Thats how you measure it. Cool. But the ci industry measures success on how well you can flap your beak like a parrot.

Miracle? No, we all know that. Profoundly different than without? Yes, at least it can be, we all know that too. Countless first hand accounts of it on this site.

Success in procedure can be measured by hearing and talking, sure, but life success is what counts. Anyone who gives a damn knows that. To determine if something is worth doing, you don't measure the success rate of doing it, you measure the overall life success rate of the individuals who had it done to see if it made a difference.

This is the study I want to see (haven't found it). This is another thing to push for. Maybe it'll reveal that CI doesn't help, maybe it'll reveal that CI helps a lot. There's gotta be a non-CI industry group out there that'd fund this study. There are plenty of schools that'd take a grant and perform the study.

Yes, ASL, yes yes yes. Deaf are Deaf with or without CI. ASL works when CI don't, ASL is a great great tool. No, more than a tool. ASL is freedom. So teach the late deafened prior audists and parents of deaf babies. They don't know, they've been hearing their whole life. They're scared. Help them. Bring them into Deaf culture, with or without CI.

 

[hoichi]

[

It'd be their choice, if such a technology existed. And parents would be able to choose for their kids.

It's a superficial change though, it's just a color, it doesn't change their ability to do something like hear. It's really not the same apples and oranges.o.

But what is the samw in the example is the use of technology to assimilte rather then adress the actual discrimintion.

IAudism is real, there's no doubt. Most of it isn't just pure hate though, it's ignorance, impatience, and ineptitude. There aren't really people who are raised with audist parents who talk about how Deaf people are horrible to be avoided at all costs, and oh don't drive in a Deaf neighborhood because you might get shot at... It's different than most forms of racism. It's real, but it's different.o.

Right. Audism is more covert. Its not an overt ideology to most. Where it is overt wnd shows its teeth, is the hearie scorn for sign. And in workplace discrimination

You can't deny that Oral gives more opportunity than non-oral. There are just some jobs that require oral comm. The push for oral when it's possible is a push to bring opportunity. Life is about seizing opportunity. Parents can only help create opportunity, and most really want to do that.




So help them see the light, help them understand. o.

It gives more oppurtunity due to discrimination.

It's not an easy adjustment for late-deafened adults. I completely understand the gut reaction that you want to restore things to how they were no matter what it takes. Adults do this with all sorts of stuff. Most people really don't like change. Most people can't handle it well. Having support, having a sympathetic ear, hearing about other people's journey... these things help. o.

Indeed

It'The Deaf community can bring late deafened in, rather than the many many late deafened who feel pushed out. A couple bad experiences and someone's attitude toward an entire community can be soured. Look at the general thread from that Canvas girl. She had a couple people giving her a hard time and she seems to have taken their comments to heart and was ready to write off AllDeaf as a resource because of it.


o.

We do accept and bring people in. Our ticket for admission to the best seats is sign and the willingless to learn and use sign. For anyone who wont sign or refuses, we are not the community for them.

ITurn all those missed opportunities into a chance at reverse assimilation. Take the deaf and make them Deaf. Help them be Deaf. They want help, they want guidance, the want someone to relate to.

I agree with this

 

[Nic]

Right. Audism is more covert. Its not an overt ideology to most. Where it is overt wnd shows its teeth, is the hearie scorn for sign. And in workplace discrimination

It gives more oppurtunity due to discrimination.

English skill requirement isn't discrimination in the US. Nor is it discrimination to require oral communication for jobs that simply require oral communication. Measuring people on skill and ability to perform a job isn't discrimination either.

It becomes discrimination when the job can be done perfectly fine without oral comm but an employer decides they don't want to deal with the compromises that would have to be made to get there. Or if an employer simply said I don't want to hire a Deaf person no matter what. Or if there was unfair treatment because of hearing ability outside of pure requirements. It all happens, yes, but it's a separate problem. They're loosely related, but it still doesn't mean you can't lean a bit to work around one problem.

So discrimination aside, oral comm opens more doors.

Discrimination is another separate issue. Separate from CI, separate from English proficiency (mostly), and separate from lingual choice.

We do accept and bring people in. Our ticket for admission to the best seats is sign and the willingless to learn and use sign. For anyone who wont sign or refuses, we are not the community for them.

It's not easy to come to the decision to learn a new language for people, especially a language that's so completely different. Sign isn't easy to learn. Most people will be unsure at best, or simply against the idea of learning at first. But they don't know the potential gain. The don't know the world it can open up for them. They somehow don't understand that Sign can take the burden of communication off of their shoulders and make life easier.

I get it, I got it pretty quickly. It makes perfect sense to me, but I'm weird.

 

[hoichi]

[

English skill requirement isn't discrimination in the US. Nor is it discrimination to require oral communication for jobs that simply require oral communication. Measuring people on skill and ability to perform a job isn't discrimination either.
d.

Sure it is.it is by the very definition. Its not considered legally discrimination. B
But is being discriminating. Few jobs really sre dependent on sole oral communication. Radio host? Ok, air traffic control? Sure..call centres, no doubt. Piano tuner...i grant.....you will be suprised how many jobs Deaf can do without the need of being oral. The discrimination comes into play allot of the time by hearies not wishing to accomodate or even give us the time of day so on. But besides radio host, and call centre gigs, ect, i cant think of many jobs that are dependent and rely exclusively on oral communication. Im sure a few are out there i havnt mentioned...meh...But ive met Deaf pilots, and Deaf engeneers, we have Deaf doctors, Deaf paramedics, Deaf programmers a fair few,Deaf laywers, so on so forth..
I know all about measuring peoples skill for jobs. I work for a leaving. And its a very discriminitory process regarding who we accept to work with us and who we tell to f off..

It becomes discrimination when the job can be done perfectly fine without oral comm but an employer decides they don't want to deal with the compromises that would have to be made to get there. Or if an employer simply said I don't want to hire a Deaf person no matter what. Or if there was unfair treatment because of hearing ability outside of pure requirements. It all happens, yes, but it's a separate problem. They're loosely related, but it still doesn't mean you can't lean a bit to work around one problem.

So discrimination aside, oral comm opens more doors.

Discrimination is another separate issue. Separate from CI, separate from English proficiency (mostly), and separate from lingual choice.d.

Every issue is separate, but also connected. The above do not exist in a vacume.
The oralists have been.droning on for about 200 years now regarding how oral leads to more oppurtunity and better jobs. The plm is that those jobs a signer can also do, its not the job that is dictating the oral requirment. Its audist hearie culture. The doors are opining and shutting due to ideology. Not due to the actual job requirments. So rather the address the discrimination and rampant audism instead its technological assimilation, in some nations forced with no choice, in others heavly coerced. Considering how much loot the industry has and who its friends are, its not suprisng

It's not easy to come to the decision to learn a new language for people, especially a language that's so completely different. Sign isn't easy to learn. Most people will be unsure at best, or simply against the idea of learning at first. But they don't know the potential gain. The don't know the world it can open up for them. They somehow don't understand that Sign can take the burden of communication off of their shoulders and make life easier.

I get it, I got it pretty quickly. It makes perfect sense to me, but I'm weird.

Allot of the reason why they dont get it, is audism.and the disdain most hearie hold for sign. Its good you got it..for how many poeple with ci that came.in here sign?

 

[Nic]

Sure it is.it is by the very definition. Its not considered legally discrimination. B
But is being discriminating. Few jobs really sre dependent on sole oral communication. Radio host? Ok, air traffic control? Sure..call centres, no doubt. Piano tuner...i grant.....you will be suprised how many jobs Deaf can do without the need of being oral. The discrimination comes into play allot of the time by hearies not wishing to accomodate or even give us the time of day so on. But besides radio host, and call centre gigs, ect, i cant think of many jobs that are dependent and rely exclusively on oral communication. Im sure a few are out there i havnt mentioned...meh...But ive met Deaf pilots, and Deaf engeneers, we have Deaf doctors, Deaf paramedics, Deaf programmers a fair few,Deaf laywers, so on so forth..
I know all about measuring peoples skill for jobs. I work for a leaving. And its a very discriminitory process regarding who we accept to work with us and who we tell to f off..

Discrimination "is treatment or consideration of, or making a distinction in favor of or against, a person or thing based on the group, class, or category to which that person or thing is perceived to belong to rather than on individual merit.".

Individual merit is key here. It's not discrimination if someone with a different ability can do a job better. I probably won't ever get a job as a football player or a model... It's not because I'm discriminated against though.

Every issue is separate, but also connected. The above do not exist in a vacume.
The oralists have been.droning on for about 200 years now regarding how oral leads to more oppurtunity and better jobs. The plm is that those jobs a signer can also do, its not the job that is dictating the oral requirment. Its audist hearie culture. The doors are opining and shutting due to ideology. Not due to the actual job requirments. So rather the address the discrimination and rampant audism instead its technological assimilation, in some nations forced with no choice, in others heavly coerced. Considering how much loot the industry has and who its friends are, its not suprisng

You can't tackle every issue at once though. The best strategy is to pick the one you can tackle and work out from there. Focusing on ASL, broadening it's use, growing the size of the ASL using Deaf community is achievable. It leads to more awareness, more understanding. More people means more support to tackle the bigger issues.

I get it about the oral only approach, I think it's stupid, and I've found plenty of studies that agree, oral only is bad. ASL leads to more academic success too, especially once kids hit HS and College level. The ones who are ASL and English do better academically than non-ASL deaf. Oral only also puts the entire communication burden on the Deaf person. Which I think is enormous BS.

The study I found took place at RIT... so there could be some imbalance there in the findings. But overall I believe it makes sense. They also cited another study that demonstrated English proficiency as important for pre-HS aged kids academic success, and that carried some weight through to HS/College success with or without ASL.

Allot of the reason why they dont get it, is audism.and the disdain most hearie hold for sign. Its good you got it..for how many poeple with ci that came.in here sign?

I don't believe most hearies hold a disdain for sign. I believe they're overwhelmed, feel they can't learn it, and are set back because of it. But they just need help.


Really I don't know what we're talking about exactly anymore. I think we both got something out of the conversation so far though. I know I did.

I'm just glad I had another day of working on stuff with a lot of idle time. I'm about to leave though and I have a full evening of stuff to do, so I won't see replies until tomorrow probably.

All in all, I still think early implants are alright, because they help kids learn English more easily, are easier to adapt to when young, and give sound awareness. I also think it's extremely important to also learn ASL. I'm a fan of the bilingual approach. I think this gives the kids the real ability to choose which culture (or both) they'd like to be a part of.

I think the more we can do to provide opportunity the better. It's opportunity that's key, not the actual seizing of the opportunity. That's for kids to do on their own terms. Just need to keep the doors open for them.

 

[Nic]

Sure it is.it is by the very definition. Its not considered legally discrimination. B
But is being discriminating. Few jobs really sre dependent on sole oral communication. Radio host? Ok, air traffic control? Sure..call centres, no doubt. Piano tuner...i grant.....you will be suprised how many jobs Deaf can do without the need of being oral. The discrimination comes into play allot of the time by hearies not wishing to accomodate or even give us the time of day so on. But besides radio host, and call centre gigs, ect, i cant think of many jobs that are dependent and rely exclusively on oral communication. Im sure a few are out there i havnt mentioned...meh...But ive met Deaf pilots, and Deaf engeneers, we have Deaf doctors, Deaf paramedics, Deaf programmers a fair few,Deaf laywers, so on so forth..
I know all about measuring peoples skill for jobs. I work for a leaving. And its a very discriminitory process regarding who we accept to work with us and who we tell to f off..

I should add more about discrimination, I ignored the latter part of this in my reply.

Education is the gateway into those higher level careers. Good schools, good programs, and academic success are key. There are good Deaf schools NTID and Gally are two good examples that produce Deaf alum who go on to find good jobs.

A big part of the under-representation of minorities in these fields is related to education. Tech, programming, specifically I know a lot about. There's a serious lack of minorities, of females, or older programmers. But tech programs in schools also have an under-representation of minorities, females, etc. People aren't getting the education to get the jobs.

To give Deaf kids the best opportunity to get those higher level jobs, the ones that don't require much oral comm at all, they need all the educational foundation they can get to reach them.

I do agree that there's also other issues surrounding this though, with accommodations, but I'm out of time. I'll check back tomorrow and have more to add maybe.

 

[hoichi]

[

Discrimination "is treatment or consideration of, or making a distinction in favor of or against, a person or thing based on the group, class, or category to which that person or thing is perceived to belong to rather than on individual merit.".m.

Right. So if a Deafie goes for a job that is not oral dependent (very very few are), then what is the issue if the Deafie babbles like a hearie parot or not?

Individual merit is key here. It's not discrimination if someone with a different ability can do a job better. I probably won't ever get a job as a football player or a model... It's not because I'm discriminated against though.m.

Sure

You can't tackle every issue at once though. The best strategy is to pick the one you can tackle and work out from there. Focusing on ASL, broadening it's use, growing the size of the ASL using Deaf community is achievable. It leads to more awareness, more understanding. More people means more support to tackle the bigger issues.m.

I like this...

I get it about the oral only approach, I think it's stupid, and I've found plenty of studies that agree, oral only is bad. ASL leads to more academic success too, especially once kids hit HS and College level. The ones who are ASL and English do better academically than non-ASL deaf. Oral only also puts the entire communication burden on the Deaf person. Which I think is enormous BS.m.

Indeed. Oralism has been travesty. Its been kept alive from rather deep pockets and deep deep ingrained ideology that views sign with scorn. Sadly right when it was looking like oralism was showing cracks in its dominance, ci essentialy became its savoir...and both have been ascendent since.

The study I found took place at RIT... so there could be some imbalance there in the findings. But overall I believe it makes sense. They also cited another study that demonstrated English proficiency as important for pre-HS aged kids academic success, and that carried some weight through to HS/College success with or without ASL.m.

Alright

I don't believe most hearies hold a disdain for sign. I believe they're overwhelmed, feel they can't learn it, and are set back because of it. But they just need help.m.

Oh come now, your a part time stand up comedian arent you?

Really I don't know what we're talking about exactly anymore. I think we both got something out of the conversation so far though. I know I did.

I'm just glad I had another day of working on stuff with a lot of idle time. I'm about to leave though and I have a full evening of stuff to do, so I won't see replies until tomorrow probably.

All in all, I still think early implants are alright, because they help kids learn English more easily, are easier to adapt to when young, and give sound awareness. I also think it's extremely important to also learn ASL. I'm a fan of the bilingual approach. I think this gives the kids the real ability to choose which culture (or both) they'd like to be a part of.m.

Well, i rather enjoyed the dsicussion. It was time well spent. And i think we hit a few points both ways. Its still a live discussion though..allot of food for thought.

I think the more we can do to provide opportunity the better. It's opportunity that's key, not the actual seizing of the opportunity. That's for kids to do on their own terms. Just need to keep the doors open for them.

I agree...and you have a good night nic...
Its been a pleasure..

 

[Nic]

Indeed. Oralism has been travesty. Its been kept alive from rather deep pockets and deep deep ingrained ideology that views sign with scorn. Sadly right when it was looking like oralism was showing cracks in its dominance, ci essentialy became its savoir...and both have been ascendent since.

Ya, oral when pushed as oral only is really bad, but oral + ASL is arguably useful. All this can exist in addition to ASL, but ASL needs to be there, always. That's the message that should be sent to every new parent of a deaf baby.

The Deaf community should embrace new deaf baby parents and accept implants and oral, but push really hard for ASL. It shouldn't be a tough sell. You have a bunch of Deaf who can articulate the value of ASL, how it has enriched their lives, how it brings people together, the community, studies about success with ASL, etc. etc. There's tons of evidence that ASL is super important and parents just want the best for their kids, happiness, opportunities, and future financial success. They just need to be informed better, and CI-professionals, doctors, and audiologists aren't going to do it.

My ENT and AuD never once mentioned ASL. I don't expect they ever will. It's not a medical treatment. It's not what they do. But now, this day in age, with the internet? Who doesn't search? who doesn't look for more info than just a doctor gives? The Deaf community is online and discoverable, just needs more ASL advocates convincing new parents of deaf babies to learn ASL and have their kid learn ASL too. Again, I don't think it's a hard sell. I mean, I'm 36, might not lose all my hearing, but my mom who lives on the other side of the country is already like hey I want to learn some ASL too.

Oh come now, your a part time stand up comedian arent you?

No way, come on. There are plenty of people who think ASL is a beautiful language, more who understand that it's useful, and some who want to put in the effort to learn it themselves. There are lots of people who respect and appreciate ASL as a language.

The class I've been taking (taught by a Deaf instructor at a local college) has mostly hearing people in. There are a couple people who have Deaf family or friends, there's a lady learning so she can teach her newborn some sign, I think I'm the only HOH person there learning for myself, the rest are all just hearies who are doing it for fun. I doubt most will stick it out and actually become conversational, but they all have a foundation now and could already communicate a bit if they had to, albeit super poorly. Most importantly, though, they all respect the language.

 

[Jezie]

Sorry for delay, have not been feeling well... I have read what you and Hoichi have been discussing and will add as I go, hope you guys do not mind.

There is only no possibility so long as people believe there is no possibility. There is in fact a possibility. Anything is possible... anything at all; but only if given enough time.

Not true... someone's happiness can depend on the exact opposite of what makes another person happy... thus it not possible....

It has been stated that factory farming is "gross" and that no one cares for the 9 billion chickens. Yet, here I have to disagree.

Animal farming us inhumanine, i do not think many would disagree with that. Yet, those 9 billion chickens provided how many meals for people? They feed not only our nation but nations around the world. Yes there are other options than eating chickens, I could drink some man made crap that has chemicals in it. Something that is unnatural and foreign to it.
Now, those 9 billion chickens that died...all efforts were taken to ensure no undue cruelty was inflicted on them. This is also done to enure food is economically available for all persons. So again while "gross" money sadly even runs this ethical delimima.

But yes, I do take things literally, and do answer rhetorical questions when they are used for the bases of an discussion.

Overall, I must admit that you two talking she'd light in various aspects... but when one group seeks and manages to oppress another there is no possibility of everyone becoming happy...

 

[Nic]

Sorry for delay, have not been feeling well... I have read what you and Hoichi have been discussing and will add as I go, hope you guys do not mind.



Not true... someone's happiness can depend on the exact opposite of what makes another person happy... thus it not possible....

It has been stated that factory farming is "gross" and that no one cares for the 9 billion chickens. Yet, here I have to disagree.

Animal farming us inhumanine, i do not think many would disagree with that. Yet, those 9 billion chickens provided how many meals for people? They feed not only our nation but nations around the world. Yes there are other options than eating chickens, I could drink some man made crap that has chemicals in it. Something that is unnatural and foreign to it.
Now, those 9 billion chickens that died...all efforts were taken to ensure no undue cruelty was inflicted on them. This is also done to enure food is economically available for all persons. So again while "gross" money sadly even runs this ethical delimima.

But yes, I do take things literally, and do answer rhetorical questions when they are used for the bases of an discussion.

Overall, I must admit that you two talking she'd light in various aspects... but when one group seeks and manages to oppress another there is no possibility of everyone becoming happy...

No problem Jezie, I hope you're feeling better

When opposing beliefs exist such that happiness for both cannot be achieved, the solution is for one belief to change. In time, this tends to happen because the unhappy group will be pushing for happiness. So when that change does happen both parties can be happy simultaneously.

Look at the marriage equality movement. At first the majority of people were against it, now the majority are ok with it. More people are happy in-spite of the past. The same applies to woman's rights, black rights, immigration stuff, etc. Time changes everything, our universe is very fluid.

When one group oppresses another, for happiness to reach both groups, the oppressing group needs to be managed (for lack of a better word). To relate to what Hoichi and I have been talking about, in the case of CI industry trampling on Deaf culture, to manage that oppression, pushing for ASL regardless of CI and gained hearing ability is probably a solid option to keep both groups flourishing. Deaf culture gains more signers, and the CI industry implants more people, makes money, and can feel good at night because they helped more deaf hear, to some degree or another.

 

[hoichi]

[

Ya, oral when pushed as oral only is really bad, but oral + ASL is arguably useful. All this can exist in addition to ASL, but ASL needs to be there, always. That's the message that should be sent to every new parent of a deaf baby.
e.

Yes, and its not a new messege. Eaither. Another book you should read is the war on sign language. It will give you a taste on what actually has occured and why.

The Deaf community should embrace new deaf baby parents and accept implants and oral, e.

The heaire community should accept Deaf babies as bieng Deaf, and accept sign language.

but push really hard for ASL. It shouldn't be a tough sell. You have a bunch of Deaf who can articulate the value of ASL, how it has enriched their lives, how it brings people together, the community, studies about success with ASL, etc. etc. There's tons of evidence that ASL is super important and parents just want the best for their kids, happiness, opportunities, and future financial success. They just need to be informed better, and CI-professionals, doctors, and audiologists aren't going to do it.e.

Indeed

My ENT and AuD never once mentioned ASL. I don't expect they ever will. It's not a medical treatment. It's not what they do. e.

They exist to make you hearie so, no suprise

But now, this day in age, with the internet? Who doesn't search? who doesn't look for more info than just a doctor gives? The Deaf community is online and discoverable, just needs more ASL advocates convincing new parents of deaf babies to learn ASL and have their kid learn ASL too. Again, I don't think it's a hard sell. I mean, I'm 36, might not lose all my hearing, but my mom who lives on the other side of the country is already like hey I want to learn some ASL too.e.

Thats great, and wicked!!

No way, come on. There are plenty of people who think ASL is a beautiful language, more who understand that it's useful, and some who want to put in the effort to learn it themselves. There are lots of people who respect and appreciate ASL as a language.e.

Ive been Deaf, and a signer for 30 years. Until your a signer as a prime language, you really have no idea the trash we get from hearies man
Yeah, allot of hearies like sign, mostly chicks sure, i grant that, i cant sign in public these days without a hearie teen grabbing me and babbling..(oh i watch swithed at birth....(rollbeyes))
Sure. But thats not the majority. Even when asl was finnaly grudingly accepted with allot of gnashing of hearie teeth as a full real language, 50 years ago by academia, its hardly been noticed really. Fact is audism is so deeply ingrained most hearie view sign as an inferior gesture, mime, hey monkeys can do it...thing..we even get that trash on here, we even had a linguist once come in here, she was a phd and wag her finger at us about how sign wasnt a true language...(roll eyes)...
Anyway

The class I've been taking (taught by a Deaf instructor at a local college) has mostly hearing people in. There are a couple people who have Deaf family or friends, there's a lady learning so she can teach her newborn some sign, I think I'm the only HOH person there learning for myself, the rest are all just hearies who are doing it for fun. I doubt most will stick it out and actually become conversational, but they all have a foundation now and could already communicate a bit if they had to, albeit super poorly. Most importantly, though, they all respect the language.

Of course, there will always be hearie wanting to learn. I dont deny that...but thats not the majority. The majority view us as inferior when we sign

 

[Nic]

Yes, and its not a new messege. Eaither. Another book you should read is the war on sign language. It will give you a taste on what actually has occured and why.

That's a good idea. I've read a bit about the history, Alexander Graham-bell and all the problems he caused, some history of the founding of Gallaudet, and different bits of the formation of ASL, but I don't have comprehensive knowledge of the history yet.

The heaire community should accept Deaf babies as bieng Deaf, and accept sign language.

Agreed, and whether they accept it or not, it's true, so they might as well accept it and embrace it.

Thats great, and wicked!!

Ya, my mom is pretty cool. Sometimes kind of goofy, but always supportive.

Ive been Deaf, and a signer for 30 years. Until your a signer as a prime language, you really have no idea the trash we get from hearies man
Yeah, allot of hearies like sign, mostly chicks sure, i grant that, i cant sign in public these days without a hearie teen grabbing me and babbling..(oh i watch swithed at birth....(rollbeyes))
Sure. But thats not the majority. Even when asl was finnaly grudingly accepted with allot of gnashing of hearie teeth as a full real language, 50 years ago by academia, its hardly been noticed really. Fact is audism is so deeply ingrained most hearie view sign as an inferior gesture, mime, hey monkeys can do it...thing..we even get that trash on here, we even had a linguist once come in here, she was a phd and wag her finger at us about how sign wasnt a true language...(roll eyes)...
Anyway

lol switched at birth. At least it brought more awareness, but ya, that's gotta be annoying.

Those people who view sign as gesture, mime, etc. They're ignorant; they need to be taught. Sign can convey more meaning and more emotion than voice. I don't get how people can't see that. It's like... make hearies play a game of charades against a couple of deafies... see how well the hearies do with mime while you use a real language. I'm confident I could predict the winner.

Of course, there will always be hearie wanting to learn. I dont deny that...but thats not the majority. The majority view us as inferior when we sign

The majority can be changed though. Take the ones you can, assimilate them over time, they in turn bring on others, and before you know it you have a majority. The marriage equality movement did it, and it worked. It's what black lives matter is trying to do now. They want people, all people of any race or whatever involved because that's what you need to convince the majority that you're right. You need to become a majority. Alienating the majority just leaves you trapped, forever.

It sort of sucks because it takes time and sacrifice (of time, effort, patience, etc) to make change happen. But in the end, future generations benefit from it.

I like to think some day people won't be so ignorant. I really think if we pushed education more a lot of these problems would just go away on their own.

 

[Jezie]

No problem Jezie, I hope you're feeling better

When opposing beliefs exist such that happiness for both cannot be achieved, the solution is for one belief to change. In time, this tends to happen because the unhappy group will be pushing for happiness. So when that change does happen both parties can be happy simultaneously.

Look at the marriage equality movement. At first the majority of people were against it, now the majority are ok with it. More people are happy in-spite of the past. The same applies to woman's rights, black rights, immigration stuff, etc. Time changes everything, our universe is very fluid.

Do not like doctors, but they mean well lol but will gice this a go... will be in and out the next few days...
Yes the universe is fluid... things change at a rather rapid pace in society. Equality is a great thing, do not get me wrong... everyone having the right to marry who they want, to vote, obtain jobs etc... but the flip side of equality is the right not to marry someone they do not want, they can choose not to vote, or they can choose not to work in a field...
I have a hard time believing that it is true happiness if a person has to change to the dominant theory. I will grant you compromise is needed for happiness when faced with opposite views are held... but a surrender of thought is not conductive to happiness.

When one group oppresses another, for happiness to reach both groups, the oppressing group needs to be managed (for lack of a better word). To relate to what Hoichi and I have been talking about, in the case of CI industry trampling on Deaf culture, to manage that oppression, pushing for ASL regardless of CI and gained hearing ability is probably a solid option to keep both groups flourishing.

Managed by who though? Generally speaking it will follow the guide of the group with the loudest voices and deeper pockets. How would that benefit the smaller group?

Employment within the deaf community is horrible... yes education and programs can help... being oral can help... but in truth the lable of being deaf stops things short... maybe it is where I am at, i really have no idea... I have only been deaf in one area... but, Hoichi (sorry ifbit was yiu to, a little fogged at the moment) went through a list of jobs that a are oral only.
I have to disagree... call centers stuck out in my mind. For this is a job deaf can do. There are call centers that go through text or instant messengers...why can deaf not fill this role...
Security I will give you, yet even here I see areas that deaf can fill... but none educate the employers...

While I agree with education being key... I have one that is not to shabby yet the title of deaf keeps me from working...
Should I get a CI just to make others happy when it is not guaranteed to help me in the least...being non-reversible and would keep me from an almost guaranteed necessary test as i get older to prolong life? To me this does not seem like people are open to making any compromises...

Deaf culture gains more signers, and the CI industry implants more people, makes money, and can feel good at night because they helped more deaf hear, to some degree or another.

I am new to the scene... but I see a difference between deaf with CI and deaf without... not different as lesser or greater and not in the way of one being superior to the other... just a different.... mind set for lack of better word...
More signers I admit is a good thing...families being willing to learn ASL together is also a good thing...


You are interested in genetics, you come off as being well read in the subject so I assume (I know dangerous just correct me if I am wrong ) that you can see the vast benefits that gene therapies can have on the human race.... yet at what cost?
Stem cell research, in its infancy has proven to cure cancers ... but is unethical to go further... why then is it not unethical to harm others to harm others that do not relate and without a clear cause?

Sadly, the holocaust and other devistating times and actions in history have given us a lot of information on the human body, life, death, and dispatch.... yet are we not doing that to other living creatures for "science" and people support these actions when they use the products...

I believe it was Caz who mentions from time to time about using prisoners for this research, that has been accepted as being unethical even though some research and experiments are conducted using prisoners... I do not find this ethical.... there are people who are willing to be subjects of study...

 

[Nic]

Do not like doctors, but they mean well lol but will gice this a go... will be in and out the next few days...
Yes the universe is fluid... things change at a rather rapid pace in society. Equality is a great thing, do not get me wrong... everyone having the right to marry who they want, to vote, obtain jobs etc... but the flip side of equality is the right not to marry someone they do not want, they can choose not to vote, or they can choose not to work in a field...
I have a hard time believing that it is true happiness if a person has to change to the dominant theory. I will grant you compromise is needed for happiness when faced with opposite views are held... but a surrender of thought is not conductive to happiness.

I don't really think it's surrendering thought, it's just changing your mind. If someone is ignorant to some facts or other aspect of [thing], then they learn those facts or whatever, it makes sense that their opinion could change naturally. People aren't so rigid that they never change their minds.

Managed by who though? Generally speaking it will follow the guide of the group with the loudest voices and deeper pockets. How would that benefit the smaller group?

Employment within the deaf community is horrible... yes education and programs can help... being oral can help... but in truth the lable of being deaf stops things short... maybe it is where I am at, i really have no idea... I have only been deaf in one area... but, Hoichi (sorry ifbit was yiu to, a little fogged at the moment) went through a list of jobs that a are oral only.
I have to disagree... call centers stuck out in my mind. For this is a job deaf can do. There are call centers that go through text or instant messengers...why can deaf not fill this role...
Security I will give you, yet even here I see areas that deaf can fill... but none educate the employers...

While I agree with education being key... I have one that is not to shabby yet the title of deaf keeps me from working...

For call centers, we both were assuming voice call centers. Text or online chat places would be fine for Deaf/HOH. It shouldn't need any oral comm requirement.

I do agree, there is almost certainly discrimination against Deaf when seeking jobs. It's illegal though, there are plenty of people who feel it's wrong. Fixing it... that's a challenge. The more insiders the Deaf community can get the better. But a lot of Deaf who find good jobs are oral, or have CIs, and they make more of the compromises to fit in to the hearing world than the hearing world makes to bring them in.

The Deaf community needs more advocates on the inside. Instead of railing against the establishment, become the establishment and change it from the inside.

Should I get a CI just to make others happy when it is not guaranteed to help me in the least...being non-reversible and would keep me from an almost guaranteed necessary test as i get older to prolong life? To me this does not seem like people are open to making any compromises...

No you shouldn't get a CI to make others happy. Getting a CI is a personal decision. If you think it can make you happier, that's when you'd get it. Having others around you happier tends to make a person happier, but compromising fundamental beliefs or doing something you're really against negates all that, usually.

With kids, the decision is on the parents though, so Hoichi typically argues that the kids don't get a choice, but if you don't implant kids, they lose the opportunity to learn with some hearing via the CI, so you eliminate their choice either way, not acting is just as big an impact as acting.

By "keep me from an almost guaranteed necessary test as i get older to prolong life" do you mean MRI? This is one of my concerns too. If CI becomes an option for me in the future, MRI access will be one of my big concerns and I'll eventually look into more about it, how complicated the surgery to remove the metal bits from the CI is, stuff like that. But if CI can help guarentee I keep my job when my hearing gets worse, keeping my job will probably improve the quality of my life more than access to MRI.

MRIs are a really great technology, and losing access to them would suck. But there are lots of ways people lose access to MRIs. Pacemaker, metal screws to mend broken bones, metal plates for bone repair, etc.

I am new to the scene... but I see a difference between deaf with CI and deaf without... not different as lesser or greater and not in the way of one being superior to the other... just a different.... mind set for lack of better word...
More signers I admit is a good thing...families being willing to learn ASL together is also a good thing...


You are interested in genetics, you come off as being well read in the subject so I assume (I know dangerous just correct me if I am wrong ) that you can see the vast benefits that gene therapies can have on the human race.... yet at what cost?
Stem cell research, in its infancy has proven to cure cancers ... but is unethical to go further... why then is it not unethical to harm others to harm others that do not relate and without a clear cause?

Sadly, the holocaust and other devistating times and actions in history have given us a lot of information on the human body, life, death, and dispatch.... yet are we not doing that to other living creatures for "science" and people support these actions when they use the products...

I believe it was Caz who mentions from time to time about using prisoners for this research, that has been accepted as being unethical even though some research and experiments are conducted using prisoners... I do not find this ethical.... there are people who are willing to be subjects of study...

Somewhat well read, it's more of a curiosity for me than a passion. There's a lot of debate over stem cell research as to whether or not it is unethical. I'm of the opinion that fetal stem cells, when harvested from "medical waste" (horribly insensitive term, but it does get thrown out), is perfectly ethical. Why not put that biological material to good use?

It's along the same lines as organ donation. Some people are all for it, others aren't. Personally, I can't really fathom why someone would be against organ donation. If I die and my body parts can help save someone else, why on earth would I not want that? I'm not using them anymore.

In regards to supporting practices when we use products... People are typically ok with what they don't see. It's that don't ask don't tell mentality. We all know meat we eat was an animal, but most don't like to think about it. We'd rather stay ignorant. It's why I brought up the 9B chickens we eat every year. Most of us don't have to see them slaughter 9B chickens, so most of us keep eating chicken, it's cheap, reasonably nutritious, and it tastes good. We eat smarter animals too, cows, deer, pigs, etc. They taste good, we like to eat them, it's in our nature, it's why we have sharp pointy teeth.

Nature is brutal... life is a cycle, and death is part of it. The decisions between sacrificing a small amount now to save a lot later is the single toughest ethical question ever. With pure logical, the choice is obvious, you always save the great number. But there's more to it than that, which is why humanity has struggled with these questions for a long time. We, as a species, are only becoming more humane, more aware. Eventually this stuff will stop, but not while it's seen as a necessity to preserve our own lives and well being.

In part, it's because we don't have necessity demanding we make these sacrifices as often anymore. It's because someone else already made them in the past for us. If it weren't for those sacrifices, we'd be a lot less well off than we are now.

Eventually we'll replace farming with some sort of nutrient made in a lab. They'll even make it taste good, and it'll feed us perfectly, we'll feel better than ever, healthier than ever. Farming animals will seem like a brutal thing our ancestors did. It'll be looked at like a dark time for the human race. But right now, it's still a necessity. Research with testing on animals, while a brutal act, is still something that advances our us. Right now, it's still an unfortunate necessity.

 

[hoichi]

You claim its not acting by giving Deaf sign wnd wllowing them to be deaf and lewrn sign. I actually hold.it to.be the other way around.
Its being proctve to give the child the best technology. And thwt technology is sign. Its sts not w crutch drilled into the skull, it has no wires, or bwtteries needed. That gives true choice in my opinion. Not a product with a kife expectancy.
Now i highly doubt the deaf you met, with ci and wre oral in good jobs hwve gotgen those gigs bwcause they flapped their beak really well.
If you took a pull on here of those who where implwnted wgainst theie wills ws bbies oe kids, you will see, not the maricle cure, great job, lots of loot, peefect beak flapping, smokin hot wife. Yaght, whwt ever the current dribble peddled to scred parents with a Deafbaby iw these dsys.
Instead
You will find many ..plenty hwve dibikitating migrains, dont wear the ci, dont have the wonder job have been mwinstreamed, denied fluency in wign or have really needed to woek at it against preasure otherwise.
So in my eyes. This more oppirtunity, good job oralist tale, is just that..
A tall tale. Mainly wishfull thinking.
We wont agree here. And thats fine. But those arebfacts though. And the longer your around, the more you will see and meat Deafies who suffer do to early implantation
All beacuse theybwerent allowed tonbe Deaf. All because they must be assimilated at all costs.
Its authoritarian. It doesnt respect freedom.
We shouls be left to be what we are Deaf. We sign.our babies are oir future.
Im sure there is a maricle story out there for ci, i can imagine the comercials now
Some guy loaded on a yaght surounded with smookin chicks, and a table full of loot..
(He stretches his arms)
"All this i have cuz ci....you can too, look how well my lips move, i speakie like the best parrot, alll this will be yours"
(Chicks slobber over him)
(deaf signer serves him a drink, he scoffs, and speaks)
"Ci, the maricle of a lifetime"
(Chick falls to knees, moves head to his crotch)
"Ci..oppururtunity, hasnt felt so good)
(Fade out)
Yeah well sure....i grant that...(roll eyes)

 

[Nic]

You claim its not acting by giving Deaf sign wnd wllowing them to be deaf and lewrn sign. I actually hold.it to.be the other way around.
Its being proctve to give the child the best technology. And thwt technology is sign. Its sts not w crutch drilled into the skull, it has no wires, or bwtteries needed. That gives true choice in my opinion. Not a product with a kife expectancy.
Now i highly doubt the deaf you met, with ci and wre oral in good jobs hwve gotgen those gigs bwcause they flapped their beak really well.
If you took a pull on here of those who where implwnted wgainst theie wills ws bbies oe kids, you will see, not the maricle cure, great job, lots of loot, peefect beak flapping, smokin hot wife. Yaght, whwt ever the current dribble peddled to scred parents with a Deafbaby iw these dsys.
Instead
You will find many ..plenty hwve dibikitating migrains, dont wear the ci, dont have the wonder job have been mwinstreamed, denied fluency in wign or have really needed to woek at it against preasure otherwise.
So in my eyes. This more oppirtunity, good job oralist tale, is just that..
A tall tale. Mainly wishfull thinking.
We wont agree here. And thats fine. But those arebfacts though. And the longer your around, the more you will see and meat Deafies who suffer do to early implantation
All beacuse theybwerent allowed tonbe Deaf. All because they must be assimilated at all costs.
Its authoritarian. It doesnt respect freedom.
We shouls be left to be what we are Deaf. We sign.our babies are oir future.
Im sure there is a maricle story out there for ci, i can imagine the comercials now
Some guy loaded on a yaght surounded with smookin chicks, and a table full of loot..
(He stretches his arms)
"All this i have cuz ci....you can too, look how well my lips move, i speakie like the best parrot, alll this will be yours"
(Chicks slobber over him)
(deaf signer serves him a drink, he scoffs, and speaks)
"Ci, the maricle of a lifetime"
(Chick falls to knees, moves head to his crotch)
"Ci..oppururtunity, hasnt felt so good)
(Fade out)
Yeah well sure....i grant that...(roll eyes)

I don't claim that at all. Teaching sign to Deaf is great, it should definitely happen, and it is acting, but it's separate from getting CI.

You keep trying to tie the two together and it's simply not the case. They're separate problems, separate decisions. Parents make two separate choices when they have a deaf baby. They choose to implant or not, and they choose to teach sign or not. Parents can choose to not implant, and not have their kid learn ASL. They can choose to implant and to learn ASL. Just having an implant does not negate learning ASL. Nor does not having an implant immediately require ASL.

Having both gives the greatest opportunity to the child and lets the child actually choose later. Having one or the other leaves that choice on the parent only, and the kid never really gets a choice later.

Getting more parents to choose ASL (with or without CI) that's the real issue. It's all about ASL, not CI. They're related, but separate decisions.

 

[hoichi]

[

I don't claim that at all. Teaching sign to Deaf is great, it should definitely happen, and it is acting, but it's separate from getting CI.

You keep trying to tie the two together and it's simply not the case.

Im not the one putting them together as ivw stated. They are. All im doing is pointing out that fact. When i stated re what you claimed, i wanted to edit, to make myself more clear, but just got back on, and youve posted. In the end here its really one of paradigms. If onw holds the medical paradigm as deafness as an curse in need of abcure then ci is certainnly a tool for assinikatiin. But if ine hokds Deafness not as a curse but to as a gift then really we see.no need for assinikation via technology. Its thats simple. We believe and hold sign to have solved the plm ci claims to address. so

They're separate problems, separate decisions. Parents make two separate choices when they have a deaf baby. They choose to implant or not, and they choose to teach sign or not. Parents can choose to not implant,

Maybe its because i used to work in sales, and know how damn easy people are to peddle peoducts too, especiially when they are scared, i see preety clear the socially conditioned free will and choice involved or lack of it, especcially.given the billion.dollor profit deiven industry on onw hand, qnd two scred parents and a deaf baby on the other. You really need to ask how much "choice"" is being offered as opposed to manipulation. Also in america sure parents are not forced , but in some countires there is no choice. Ci industry is international. Im not going to stop at the border, they certainly dont.

and not have their kid learn ASL. They can choose to implant and to learn ASL. Just having an implant does not negate learning ASL. Nor does not having an implant immediately require ASL.

Right, but its not just have the implant, not with kids. Allot is invokved. Parents generally will head the docs advice, esoeccially when a maricale cure is.bieng peddled, and for cheap.

Having both gives the greatest opportunity to the child and lets the child actually choose later. Having one or the other leaves that choice on the parent only, and the kid never really gets a choice later.

Well again, for.those babies implanted in the 90s to now, how real was that peomised.oppurtnity? Most ive met, if not all werent making the same loot as mw, nor even as stable, or anything close. So its just an assunption, i havnt really seen it turn as such in reality.
But
Ive seen the sufferers of life kong migrains, of those who csnt.wear the ci due to massive pain, of dorced mainstreaming in the idea the ci dis cure.the affliction, the loss and stripping.of sign as a peimary language fir hwlf baked engkish oralism
So here i think we are going a bit in circles. Your stting what yoir opinion is, what should.hapen, im stating the stark reality of the marickle wonder tech,
Which is far removed from the dazzle of the advertising

Getting more parents to choose ASL (with or without CI) that's the real issue. It's all about ASL, not CI. They're related, but separate decisions.

Well they are not seperete if those in the industry are insisting that sign is a negative and the child shoud not sign lest the child revert to being Deaf, (as if thats a bad thing...roll eyes
Indeed. Its allways been about sign. The hesries incabality to simply acceot sign and Deaf. Thats what the wholw assimiliation has been about

 

[Nic]

Im not the one putting them together as ivw stated. They are. All im doing is pointing out that fact. When i stated re what you claimed, i wanted to edit, to make myself more clear, but just got back on, and youve posted. In the end here its really one of paradigms. If onw holds the medical paradigm as deafness as an curse in need of abcure then ci is certainnly a tool for assinikatiin. But if ine hokds Deafness not as a curse but to as a gift then really we see.no need for assinikation via technology. Its thats simple. We believe and hold sign to have solved the plm ci claims to address. so

This is like saying you can't own a bike if you go to a car dealership and buy a car. The guy at the car dealership is obviously going to push you to buy a car, he's going to say, you don't want to bike, look you'll get rained on, and it's slower. in a car you have this fancy GPS, and a roof over your head when it's raining... But you can own and ride a bike in addition to having a car.

CI and ASL are separate. They are 2 decisions. Just because someone says don't learn ASL while they're selling you a CI/HA doesn't make them mutually exclusive.

Maybe its because i used to work in sales, and know how damn easy people are to peddle peoducts too, especiially when they are scared, i see preety clear the socially conditioned free will and choice involved or lack of it, especcially.given the billion.dollor profit deiven industry on onw hand, qnd two scred parents and a deaf baby on the other. You really need to ask how much "choice"" is being offered as opposed to manipulation. Also in america sure parents are not forced , but in some countires there is no choice. Ci industry is international. Im not going to stop at the border, they certainly dont.

If you go that route, you're basically saying Deaf shouldn't go see an Audiologist or ENT about their hearing loss beyond maybe identifying a root cause in case it's something more serious (tumor or something else that should be ruled out).

So again, it's not about saying no to the CI, it's about killing off the sales pitch.

Right, but its not just have the implant, not with kids. Allot is invokved. Parents generally will head the docs advice, esoeccially when a maricale cure is.bieng peddled, and for cheap.

So what you really want are docs to suggest CI AND ASL.

Well again, for.those babies implanted in the 90s to now, how real was that peomised.oppurtnity? Most ive met, if not all werent making the same loot as mw, nor even as stable, or anything close. So its just an assunption, i havnt really seen it turn as such in reality.
But
Ive seen the sufferers of life kong migrains, of those who csnt.wear the ci due to massive pain, of dorced mainstreaming in the idea the ci dis cure.the affliction, the loss and stripping.of sign as a peimary language fir hwlf baked engkish oralism
So here i think we are going a bit in circles. Your stting what yoir opinion is, what should.hapen, im stating the stark reality of the marickle wonder tech,
Which is far removed from the dazzle of the advertising

This is again mostly a problem where the parents only took one option and not two. ASL + CI is definitely better than just CI. Research suggests that kids who learn ASL do better in HS and college. And that kids who have CI do better in elementary and middle school (while learning language).

Well they are not seperete if those in the industry are insisting that sign is a negative and the child shoud not sign lest the child revert to being Deaf, (as if thats a bad thing...roll eyes
Indeed. Its allways been about sign. The hesries incabality to simply acceot sign and Deaf. Thats what the wholw assimiliation has been about

If the clothing sales industry starts telling Deaf people not to learn ASL, will you advocate that Deaf people shouldn't buy clothes, and insist that wearing clothes means deaf babies won't learn sign?

 

[hoichi]

[

This is like saying you can't own a bike if you go to a car dealership and buy a car.

No. Its stating we dont need a cure, as were are not sick. We dont need to get fixed. We are not broken. Thats what this is about. The medical aproach is that apporach. Your broken, you need to be cured, you need to be fixed. We dont hold that view. It really is that simple

The guy at the car dealership is obviously going to push you to buy a car, he's going to say, you don't want to bike, look you'll get rained on, and it's slower. in a car you have this fancy GPS, and a roof over your head when it's raining... But you can own and ride a bike in addition to having a car.

Sure you can. But will you take a cure for an illness you dont have?
I wouldnt.

CI and ASL are separate. They are 2 decisions. Just because someone says don't learn ASL while they're selling you a CI/HA doesn't make them mutually exclusive./

Right, and your ignoring the very real realiy of power relations, involved. Just because two scared parents are peddled the dazzle of a maricle doenst mean they shoukd buy into it. True. Fact is marketing, and advertising are effective, and add in a doctor. Pushing a product on scared parents, the choice you keep claiming gets seriously restricted.

If you go that route, you're basically saying Deaf shouldn't go see an Audiologist or ENT about their hearing loss beyond maybe identifying a root cause in case it's something more serious (tumor or something else that should be ruled out).

So again, it's not about saying no to the CI, it's about killing off the sales pitch.

Those of us who dont wear aids have no reason to see an adiologist. Really, those who do see one.

If So what you really want are docs to suggest CI AND ASL.).

No. I want the docs and their drills to stay away from our kids. But its been rather clear, Deaf wishes are not relavant. So meh

This is again mostly a problem where the parents only took one option and not two. ASL + CI is definitely better than just CI. Research suggests that kids who learn ASL do better in HS and college. And that kids who have CI do better in elementary and middle school (while learning language).

Thats one part of the plm. The plm is one of cultural assimilation and cultural colonialism.

If the clothing sales industry starts telling Deaf people not to learn ASL, will you advocate that Deaf people shouldn't buy clothes, and insist that wearing clothes means deaf babies won't learn sign?

If i have no need for those cloths why are they bieng puhed to me? For loot. Of course. So if a need isnt real, one will be manufactured, And besides this isnt about cloths. Its about assimilation, and cultural genocide. Ci has been a mqnufactured need, now seen as a need. Its not though.
The ci is a tool, one of many, the latest in the arsenal, but its not the ony tool being used. Thats what this is aboit. Hearies unwillingness to accept us Deaf aa Deaf..no!!
You will.be made a hearie, or as close as.twch alllows. Thats what its about.
Its the oralsit wet dream

 

[Nic]

No. Its stating we dont need a cure, as were are not sick. We dont need to get fixed. We are not broken. Thats what this is about. The medical aproach is that apporach. Your,your broken, you need to.becured, you need to be fixed. We dont hold that view. It really is that simple

Lots of people don't feel that way. Some do, fine, some don't, also fine. Some get CI, some don't. That's fine. Some learn ASL, some don't, I guess that's fine too. It'd be better if more learned ASL though, it does help.

Sure you can. But will take a cure for an illness you dont have?
I wouldnt.

I own a car because I want to move faster than I can run or ride a bike. Sometimes it's nice to drive.

Right, and your ignoring the very real realiy of power relations, involved. Just because two scared parents are peddled the dazzle of a maricle doenst mean they shoukd buy into it. True. Fact is marketing, and advertising are effective, and add in a doctor. Pushing a product on scared parents, the choice you keep claiming gets seriously restricted.

I'm not ignoring it, I'm just pointing out that the power relationship, and advice from people who have influence doesn't mean the two are tied as closely as you say they are.

Those of us who dont wear aids have no reason tosee an adiologist. Really, those who do see one.

Audiologists identify hearing loss. In babies, you don't know they're deaf until they've been tested. In adults, you don't realize your hearing loss is as bad as it is until it's been tested. And hearing loss could be caused by other more threatening problems (like a tumor). An Audiologist or ENT can diagnose the problem and rule out more dangerous root problems. From there, it's up to you what you want to do, but you need to know there's hearing loss and rule out the potential life disrupting causes.

No. I want the docs.and their drills to stay away from our kids.

So you're really just about kids getting surgery then? Is that it?

Thats onw part of the plm. The plm is one of cultural assimilation and cultural colonialism.

There's no conspiracy. People just want to help, and some people appreciate that type of help. The ones who don't, need not seek or accept it. As for the babies, their parents get to make that decision. That's how it works. Kids don't get to make decisions independently until they're 18 (or emancipated). Parents can screw their kids up in a billion different ways. Implanting them with CI isn't the worst thing a parent can do to their deaf baby. Personally, I'd recommend they teach their deaf baby sign and get them a CI. Seems like the more options you can give your kid the better. Then when they're ready, let them choose how they want to live. do they want to sign full time and keep the process in their dresser? Do they want to give up on ASL? Leave it truly up to them...

If i have no need for those cloths why are they bieng puhed to me? And besides this isnt about cloths. Its about assimikation, and cuktural genocide.
The ci is a tool, one of many, the latest in the arsenal, but its not the ony tool being used. Thats what this is aboit. Hearies unwillingness to accept us Deaf aa Deaf..no!!
You will.be made a hearie, or as close as.twch alllows. Thats what its about.
Its the oralsit wet dream

Some people like wearing clothes, other people don't. But wearing clothes, even if the clothing sales person tells you you shouldn't learn ASL, doesn't prevent you from learning ASL. Using a CI, doesn't prevent you from learning ASL, even if the CI sales man tells you not to learn ASL.

As our conversation goes on, and gets deeper, you're demonstrating and receiving first hand evidence how your arguments push people away instead of bring them closer. I am pro-ASL, I was unsure about CI, especially in kids, but now you have me arguing adamantly against you. Your extreme views, and conspiracy theory like arguments can easily push people to the opposite extreme. Instead of helping your cause, you're making it worse.

This isn't a conspiracy, it's not an orchestrated plan to destroy the Deaf community. It's not a direct attack. It's one possible solution to a difficulty that does exist. ASL is another solution. Using two solutions is better than using only one.