A Parent's joy versus animal's torment.

Jezie

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Cochler's silence on on Animal Testing is Deafening

Warning: distressing content

As you read this, one of Australia's great international success stories, Cochlear, is testing a version of its famous "bionic ear" on 16 cats for which the company has paid almost $450,000 to be deafened.

When I received a copy of the confidential "project agreement" between Cochlear and the Bionics Institute to enact this fate upon the animals, I was unsure what to think - medical research has long forced animals to be proxies for people in what many would argue is essential work to lessen human suffering. This is what Cochlear does:
(Video in link)

Could you deny a child this? Would you buy a product that intentionally maimed animals to achieve this?

In a bid to understand better what Cochlear hoped to achieve through its research, I contacted the company about the $449,696 contract with Victoria's Bionics Institute to deafen and implant the cats. I was directed to Cochlear's corporate affairs manager who would say only "we conform to the necessary processes" and that this "is not an area we provide commentary on".

Later attempts met with a similar response, as did repeated approaches to the researchers and director of the Bionics Institute. Make no mistake, the Bionics Institute cannot just cut open cats when it likes. Whatever research it has proposed must first pass through the institute's Animal Research Ethics Committee, whose spokesperson also declined to comment. This is not a Mickey Mouse rubber stamp. The people on these committees take their jobs very seriously.

Cochlear and the Bionics Institute no doubt think they will not be given a fair hearing in the court of public opinion. This is an emotional topic. However, with no comment from either, we're left with the unadorned documentation of what will be done to the 16 cats. It outlines one of the two purposes of the current "project" as being to "determine the effects of an amplified acoustic environment on loss of residual hearing in cats that have a cochlear implant and receive chronic electrical stimulation".

This involves lead wires "tied with Dacron mesh to the skull through two holes" and a stimulator attached "subcutaneous on the back near the spine". Human "operators" are warned in the documentation "to maintain at least one metre distance" from the "operating device ... because of the quite strong magnetic field generated by the coils".

All in all, this doesn't sound like a lot of fun for the cats, although, without any kind of professional clarification, we are left to ponder the levels of discomfort and/or torment experienced by the animals and just how testing on cats tells researchers anything about the anatomy of humans.

One British expert I approached through Humane Research Australia, Dr Andre Menache, told me: "As a veterinary surgeon for 30 years I challenge the researchers responsible for this study to provide one shred of evidence these cat experiments are predictive of what happens in people with hearing problems. The fact these researchers make the claims they do in their published work indicates that they need to undergo a basic course in evolutionary biology."

Organisations representing the deaf in Australia also expressed surprise at Cochlear's use of animal testing, with one spokesperson saying: "I don't imagine this is well known. I've never heard or seen discussion of testing on cats or any other animals on social media. It troubles me to hear that.

"You need to understand, however, getting an implant of this nature is always a difficult decision for people to make, as there is a risk they may lose what little hearing they have through implantation, so I imagine they would want to know some kind of testing had been done."

This may well be the case, but a spokesperson for the Sydney Cochlear Implant Centre (SCIC) - "Australia's largest cochlear implant program" - told me: "I can say quite categorically, I have never heard of this [animal testing]."

Likewise, a spokesperson for Deaf Australia said she was "a little concerned about the methods used to test something that is by no means a cure for deafness".

Reactions such as this suggest animal testing is not something Cochlear wants associated with its brand, while being quite willing to benefit commercially from its use under the shroud of academic secrecy.

Cochlear is not a charity: In February this year, the ASX-listed company announced a 240 per cent rise in its first-half profits to $71.4 million. It is a big business and it does not just give away its implants; they cost in the range of $25,000-$30,000 and we, the Australian public contributes to the cost via Medicare.

The experiences of the live cattle, factory farm and greyhound racing industries in Australia clearly illustrate that Australians have little tolerance for animal cruelty, so it's small wonder that Cochlear wants nothing to do with videos such as the one below.
(Video in link)
While this footage is not of Cochlear's cats, the animal above was being used for auditory experiments in the US, similar to those being conducted at the Bionics Institute on behalf of Cochlear. The operations this cat was subjected to are also similar to those illustrated and described in Cochlear and the Bionic's Institute's "project agreement".

Without information about why and how Cochlear uses its animals, Australians can only be left to wonder and compare YouTube videos.

Child's joy versus animal's torment.

Most would pick the child.

However, to get there, you must embrace a utilitarian view of the world - the greatest good for the greatest number - one in which the supposed "lesser consciousness" of animals deems them vulnerable to whatever we humans of "higher consciousness" decide will benefit us.

As Australian ethicist Peter SInger has pointed out, though, this argument falls apart when you ask people to replace the "lesser consciousness" of animals with the "lesser consciousness" of a severely handicapped or infant human; we'd never allow the sort of medical experiments conducted on so-called "dumb" animals to be done to these two "dumb" groups of humans.

The fact is, without information, we cannot have an informed debate about Cochlear's processes and it is this lack of transparency that groups such as Humane Research Australia have campaigned against for years.

Australia is the world's fourth largest user of animals in experiments, after the US, China and Japan, yet unlike the European Union, where researchers are required by law to publish, "non-technical summaries", explaining how and why the animals were used and what benefits resulted, Australian researchers work in secrecy.

In the history of rights movements, it has always been information that has led the change in attitudes; the printing press, pamphlets, books, then film, television and YouTube have let generations of people walk in others' shoes.

As the Harvard cognitive scientist Steven Pinker writes in The Better Angels of Our Nature: "A connected and educated populace, at least in aggregate and over the long run, is bound to be disabused of poisonous beliefs, such as that members of other races and ethnicities are innately avaricious or perfidious; that economic and military misfortunes are caused by the treachery of ethnic minorities; that women don't mind being raped; that children must be beaten to be socialised; that people choose to be homosexual as part of a morally degenerate lifestyle; that animals are incapable of feeling pain".

Without that information, however, we might as well be blind, dumb and deaf.

http://m.theage.com.au/comment/cochlears-silence-on-animal-testing-is-deafening-20150726-gikmxx.html
 
No suprise.
We will be assimilated, if animals be tortured so be it.
As long as multi national profit driven corps keep getting paid as the drill turns..animals or Deaf matter little.

And how the question is framed, to suit their interests.the child or the cat? What iw that asking? Its framing implants as some life and death choice, obviously the
child. But its a smoke screen. No such choice is involved here. Its a rather different choice..and better question assimilate your child or torture cats?

Fact is one can and does lead a full life as a human being Deaf.
One can live a meaningfull life. No wires attached.
Animals do not need to be tortured for human wants...and thats what this...
Sick
Lest we foget implants where first tested on people against medical advice, implnants where first drilled into babies heads against medical advice,
But profit drives it..
The Deaf be damned...
We will be assimilated!
 
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Cats and people hear differently...what benefit is there to this... If the cats were naturally deaf, okay I can stretch it... But to deafen the cats? I am lost on.... Drilling into babies I have no understanding on... Why not start with adults? People who can actually express experience and understanding... Who can compare and contrast... But then children are the best advertising campaign for any goal, directive, or product...


Sent from my iPad using AllDeaf
 
Horrible really...I wouldn't want a product that harmed animals. What is even the point of it? Sad.

Laura
 
Cats and people hear differently...what benefit is there to this... If the cats were naturally deaf, okay I can stretch it... But to deafen the cats? I am lost on.... Drilling into babies I have no understanding on... Why not start with adults? People who can actually express experience and understanding... Who can compare and contrast... But then children are the best advertising campaign for any goal, directive, or product...


Sent from my iPad using AllDeaf

Yeah, its for the children (roll eyes)
Its a catch all phrase for anything really.
Intersting how quit the thread is, must be Deafening....
Guess the new implant swimming model thread is more important..mmmmmm
 
Yeah, its for the children (roll eyes)
Its a catch all phrase for anything really.
Intersting how quit the thread is, must be Deafening....
Guess the new implant swimming model thread is more important..mmmmmm

Who wants to admit that "costs" are worth the benefits? It is like them having to say, "I support housing chickens that are so packed together they cannot move live in horrible conditions... just so I can have a $1 chicken sandwich."
Instead they can ignore it all and when the normal is pointed out every one can gasp at the horrible things this company is doing... ignoring the fact that they all do to varing degrees... there is a no win argument that can be made...
 
Who wants to admit that "costs" are worth the benefits? It is like them having to say, "I support housing chickens that are so packed together they cannot move live in horrible conditions... just so I can have a $1 chicken sandwich."
Instead they can ignore it all and when the normal is pointed out every one can gasp at the horrible things this company is doing... ignoring the fact that they all do to varing degrees... there is a no win argument that can be made...

Yep.as the drill turns....
 
That horrible.i don't see how doing this to an animal can forward humanity..I understand if you got child with cancer in experimenting on that sort of thing could cure other mammals if given in vets surgery trying cure animal in first place..Emotive subject but unless it saving lives for animals and humans then ethic's should be looked at.
My point do it to evil murders and pedis in prison
 
That horrible.i don't see how doing this to an animal can forward humanity..I understand if you got child with cancer in experimenting on that sort of thing could cure other mammals if given in vets surgery trying cure animal in first place..Emotive subject but unless it saving lives for animals and humans then ethic's should be looked at.
My point do it to evil murders and pedis in prison

Sadly...money outweighs ethics on this one...
 
Sadly...money outweighs ethics on this one...

SADLY YOU RIGHT..The experiments they do on animals for face makeup is awful..Want wear slap then find out yourself if it safe..Also making rabbits smoke or doing experiments on birds eyes what do it serve
 
Sadly...money outweighs ethics on this one...
I'd like to think it's not just money vs. ethics. Hearing people believe hearing is a requirement for a high quality of life and by restoring hearing to newly born humans they are giving those children the best possible chance to have a quality life.

It's obviously super controversial, and I'm still completely on the fence over the practice. I've read pros and cons, and I haven't been able to find enough statistics to sway me one way or the other yet.

The whole ethics realm is actually insanely difficult. If you had to maim and kill 15 cats to save hundreds, or thousands, or hundreds of thousands of humans, should it be done?

What if it was 15 humans to save hundreds of thousands?

What if it was 1 human for a chance to save millions?

There are infinite scenarios, and the answers change between people, cultures, time periods, etc. These questions are also where heroes are born, like the guys at Fukushima who stayed to keep the reactor meltdown from being worse than it was.

The Ethics question that interests me right now is the old trolly problem. This used to be really abstract and hypothetical, but with programmers having to program driverless cars, the trolly problem is real now. Someone has to answer this, and then program a car to respond accordingly under these scenarios.

The trolly problem:
There is a runaway trolley barreling down the railway tracks. Ahead, on the tracks, there are five people tied up and unable to move. The trolley is headed straight for them. You are standing some distance off in the train yard, next to a lever. If you pull this lever, the trolley will switch to a different set of tracks. However, you notice that there is one person on the side track. You have two options: (1) Do nothing, and the trolley kills the five people on the main track. (2) Pull the lever, diverting the trolley onto the side track where it will kill one person. Which is the correct choice?
 
SADLY YOU RIGHT..The experiments they do on animals for face makeup is awful..Want wear slap then find out yourself if it safe..Also making rabbits smoke or doing experiments on birds eyes what do it serve
I really have a hard time feeling bad about animals who are experimented on when we raise animals under horrible conditions so we can eat them.

There might be a few thousand animals that are used for testing each year, but we raise and slaughter billions of animals for eating every single year. It's always ignored, and it's insane to ignore. I don't get it.
 
I'd like to think it's not just money vs. ethics. Hearing people believe hearing is a requirement for a high quality of life and by restoring hearing to newly born humans they are giving those children the best possible chance to have a quality life.

It's obviously super controversial, and I'm still completely on the fence over the practice. I've read pros and cons, and I haven't been able to find enough statistics to sway me one way or the other yet.

The whole ethics realm is actually insanely difficult. If you had to maim and kill 15 cats to save hundreds, or thousands, or hundreds of thousands of humans, should it be done?

What if it was 15 humans to save hundreds of thousands?

What if it was 1 human for a chance to save millions?

There are infinite scenarios, and the answers change between people, cultures, time periods, etc. These questions are also where heroes are born, like the guys at Fukushima who stayed to keep the reactor meltdown from being worse than it was.

The Ethics question that interests me right now is the old trolly problem. This used to be really abstract and hypothetical, but with programmers having to program driverless cars, the trolly problem is real now. Someone has to answer this, and then program a car to respond accordingly under these scenarios.

The trolly problem:
There is a runaway trolley barreling down the railway tracks. Ahead, on the tracks, there are five people tied up and unable to move. The trolley is headed straight for them. You are standing some distance off in the train yard, next to a lever. If you pull this lever, the trolley will switch to a different set of tracks. However, you notice that there is one person on the side track. You have two options: (1) Do nothing, and the trolley kills the five people on the main track. (2) Pull the lever, diverting the trolley onto the side track where it will kill one person. Which is the correct choice?

I can see what you say, but deafness is not life and death...as often as it is mistyped deaf does not mean dead... if it did then I would not be so against it for childern.... adults have the ability to make a big choice like this... a infant does not... if an adult decides they want an implant cool... but kids... infants are helpless to a parents whims... I am not sure at what age I stop getting upset about it...because eventually a child is old enough to say "hey mom, dad, i want to give CI a chance" and that is cool also... recently read an article little girl got the implant it failed so they tap into her brain stem.... why not let the childern grow up and make their own choice in tha matter... hearing do mean well... but they also have no clue what it means to be deaf either ....
 
I can see what you say, but deafness is not life and death...as often as it is mistyped deaf does not mean dead... if it did then I would not be so against it for childern.... adults have the ability to make a big choice like this... a infant does not... if an adult decides they want an implant cool... but kids... infants are helpless to a parents whims... I am not sure at what age I stop getting upset about it...because eventually a child is old enough to say "hey mom, dad, i want to give CI a chance" and that is cool also... recently read an article little girl got the implant it failed so they tap into her brain stem.... why not let the childern grow up and make their own choice in tha matter... hearing do mean well... but they also have no clue what it means to be deaf either ....
It's definitely true that deafness is not life threatening, but neither are things like being disfigured, missing limbs, being blind, or any countless other conditions that exist that definitely do impact quality of life.

This actually makes the questions more difficult. They become things like these:

Would you sacrifice 15 kittens to bring 200,000 people out of poverty?

Should we allow experimenting on primates to test artificial limbs, so soldiers who lost their limbs in combat can have their mobility restored?

Would you sacrifice 10 people to ensure nobody will ever be blind again?

Would you let someone sacrifice themselves to make sure their family has a good life?


I think the reason they implant at really young ages is to give the child all the options they can. Hearing people tend to feel that growing up hearing gives you more opportunity to succeed in life. Parents want the best future for their child that they can deliver. So to hearing parents, they see deafness as a potential huge setback in learning, development, social, and future economic situation (income). I get where they're coming from, so I can empathize with that mentality. If I had a kid, I'd want to give them as many options as I could.

It'd be similar to a kid being born with a mobility impairment. Parents are going to do what they can, and if things like surgery to correct bone problems is an option, they'll do it. The option might exist later in life too, but being raised without being able to walk until you reach the age where you can make a decision yourself just isn't the same as having been able to walk while growing up.

Personally, I want to see statistics on the success of Deaf born and raised without CI brought up in Deaf culture, compared to deaf born but early CI and upbringing in hearing culture, also compared to Deaf born and BiBi upbringing with or without CI.

And I don't just want income and economical stats, I want happiness to factor in, suicide rates, likelihood of depression, etc. If I could find such statistics I could make up my own mind on the issue, but without the stats I never will; I'm just wired for data driven decisions, even on the ethics questions.

I also get why people don't want babies implanted. It's an invasion/perversion of the human body that's irreversible. The child doesn't have a choice in the matter. It'd be along the same lines of tattooing a baby, something everyone would very much against. It could also effect the child's ability to engage with the Deaf community.

The stronger argument, in my opinion is that if they're raised in hearing culture only, because they can "hear" with their CI, then they might never discover Deaf culture, they likely wouldn't learn ASL early. This also puts all of the communication burden on the deaf child. CI is far from perfect, so it's very possible that this approach could actually make for a harder future than a BiBi or Deaf upbringing. Again though, I really want statistics on success and happiness for each of these upbringing options.


Here's the most important part of my long winded response:

By choosing not to act, not to implant, you're taking something away from your child too. You're taking away some level of hearing in their early years. This will definitely have an impact. I can't say if it's positive or negative. I don't have the stats.

It makes this problem essentially the same as trolly problem at the core. Not acting, and having something happen, vs acting and having something different happen. It's seemingly easier to say not acting is the ethical response, because you can't be to blame, but sometimes not acting has a worse outcome, or an equally negative outcome. Maybe the kid would grow up and hate the parents for not giving them the opportunity to hear early in life.
 
It's definitely true that deafness is not life threatening, but neither are things like being disfigured, missing limbs, being blind, or any countless other conditions that exist that definitely do impact quality of life.


This actually makes the questions more difficult. They become things like these:

Would you sacrifice 15 kittens to bring 200,000 people out of poverty?

Nope, people in poverty can get them selves out without the sacrifice of innocence.... the money that is wasted to kill the kittens could go to education or other programs....

Should we allow experimenting on primates to test artificial limbs, so soldiers who lost their limbs in combat can have their mobility restored?

Nope, let people who want it so bad to be willing to be the ginnie pigs

Would you sacrifice 10 people to ensure nobody will ever be blind again?

Nope, blind does not mean dead...but dead does.

Would you let someone sacrifice themselves to make sure their family has a good life?

If I allow and have signed my life to my country, why would I object to someone doing it for their family ?


I think the reason they implant at really young ages is to give the child all the options they can.
The only options that are ever given are the options that the doctors give.... implanting the babies...
Hearing people tend to feel that growing up hearing gives you more opportunity to succeed in life. Parents want the best future for their child that they can deliver. So to hearing parents, they see deafness as a potential huge setback in learning, development, social, and future economic situation (income).
People fail to become educated as a society the deaf are and have been ignored unless it is for a money...


Personally, I want to see statistics
Really like what Hoichi says about statistics and agree that people can make statistics say anything...

Here's the most important part of my long winded response:

By choosing not to act, not to implant, you're taking something away from your child too. You're taking away some level of hearing in their early years.

There are more options than just implanting a baby in order to make him or her just like everyone else...
 
I would have to ask why 200.000 in poverty first place and after killing kittens is life going to change the answer be NO..Why would you need chop primates limbs off how is that going to help a combat soldier remember he chose his path knowing consequence AGAIN BLINDNESS our eyes vision different but if an animal already got condition then in doing vets best to cure animal the knock on effects help humans..
I have daughter with Downs syndrome would I see animals killed no because it wont achieve anything in fact make it worse.
I would not let my child have CI,I THINK doctors should allow parents to see and talk to people who had them fail.Many deaf people can be awkward with this. they should invite hearing parents into deaf social world more often not be so defensive(personal observation).
Then like it or not accept life can be a bitch some people get dealt bad hand Redefining success and that what humans got to do.
I agree with a lot you have stated but I not clever so unable give decent reply like you and jez
 
I'm going to Cherry pick what I reply to because we're getting super deep and it's getting harder to read/follow.

If I allow and have signed my life to my country, why would I object to someone doing it for their family ?
You're okay with willing sacrifice to potentially increase the quality of life of others, but you're against the unwilling sacrifice/harm of either animals or humans to reach the same end goal.

But you made a reference to serving your country. Soldiers primarily serve by waging war on behalf of their country. War means killing people who didn't volunteer to die. In it's pure form, the end goal of war is to bring about peace, to increase the quality of life for the country.

Why then is this ok? The killing of (some innocent) people in other countries to bring about higher quality of living for people in our country.

But this is not ok? Randomly choosing (some innocent) people to die to bring about a higher quality of living for people.

Another followup question to think about, since you're ok with personal sacrifice; are you ok with suicide? How about with assisted suicide? Or voluntary geriatric suicide? This is a personal sacrifice that in theory increases the quality of living of your survivors by removing yourself as a burden to them. It's illegal in the vast majority of places, but not everywhere.

I don't mean to put you on this spot with these questions. Ethics questions do this... you boil them down and in the end something you think was wrong, ends up being the same as something you think is right. It makes it all super difficult. Sometimes there'll be some difference between the two that lets you justify it, other times that difference doesn't really exist. Other times you'll realize that what you thought was right causes more harm than good. In either case, some people will agree, and some will disagree.

The point is, they're impossible questions to answer absolutely. As a result, it's really hard to conclude that one thing is wrong, but something else is right. There's that gut feeling that we should do no harm, but sometimes by doing no harm we cause more harm than good (the core of the trolly problem).

Even the most peace-seaking people out there (think Dali Llama, and pure Buddhists) have a hard time with this stuff. The conclusion there seems to frequently be letting nature take it's course and learning to accept that death is part of life and we're all just part of a cycle. Then doing as little harm as you can replaces do no harm because no harm is sometimes more harmful than a little harm.

It's fun to think about, to discuss, but in the end it can feel fruitless. It's seemingly impossible to come to a final conclusion if you consider everything, don't omit anything, and don't let yourself falsely justify something.

Ultimately, though, since we're people, we make a decision, we typically have to eventually.

To bring it back around to the topic. I don't think it's necessarily wrong or right to either implant or not implant babies. I do think there are good and bad points to both options. I don't currently know which is the better option. I do know that personal answers to this question will be the result of experiences, and personal goals.

Hoichi, for example, cares greatly about Deaf culture and wants to see it survive. So for him this is a straight forward question. The potential "good" (allowing the child to grow up hearing) goes against something he passionately believes in, and there are negatives to implanting, so it's easy.

Me, I care about Deaf culture, I want to see it survive, but I value happiness above anything else in this world. Whichever option would bring about the greatest happiness, or gives the potential for the greatest happiness would be what I'd choose. I just don't know which that is.


Really like what Hoichi says about statistics and agree that people can make statistics say anything...
Statistics can be manipulated, but there are pure stats too. When done in the "right" way researchers can gather unbiased data and that data can be used in the correct way to make unbiased and accurate declarations. It's the foundation of research.

The alternative is uninformed decision making. So even if this is flawed slightly (as there are humans involved and even with large enough samples, and frequent enough studies, the data can go eschew) it's better than nothing.


p.s. Sorry for the super long responses. I'm working on slow stuff with lots of idle time, so I'm entertaining myself by writing a lot apparently :-P
 
I would have to ask why 200.000 in poverty first place and after killing kittens is life going to change the answer be NO..Why would you need chop primates limbs off how is that going to help a combat soldier remember he chose his path knowing consequence AGAIN BLINDNESS our eyes vision different but if an animal already got condition then in doing vets best to cure animal the knock on effects help humans..
I have daughter with Downs syndrome would I see animals killed no because it wont achieve anything in fact make it worse.
I would not let my child have CI,I THINK doctors should allow parents to see and talk to people who had them fail.Many deaf people can be awkward with this. they should invite hearing parents into deaf social world more often not be so defensive(personal observation).
Then like it or not accept life can be a bitch some people get dealt bad hand Redefining success and that what humans got to do.
I agree with a lot you have stated but I not clever so unable give decent reply like you and jez
That's a great point, about Deaf parents inviting hearing parents of deaf children in more. It'd give them a lot more insight. Just being here, reading here and elsewhere, I've learned a lot more about CI than I knew previously. I could understand how most hearing parents would think it's some miracle cure and their kid will hear like normal. Then never really understanding that their kid has a hard time still and they're putting a huge burden on that child forcing them to communicate orally only.

The "life can be a bitch" attitude is awesome, and I share it. We're dealt the hand we're dealt. We make it work. My goal is always just to be happy. If we can be happy, live happy lives, I think we're successful :)
 
You're okay with willing sacrifice to potentially increase the quality of life of others, but you're against the unwilling sacrifice/harm of either animals or humans to reach the same end goal.
Yep
Soldiers primarily serve by waging war on behalf of their country.
Nope
War means killing people who didn't volunteer to die. In it's pure form, the end goal of war is to bring about peace, to increase the quality of life for the country.
A politicians goal is not the goal of the soilder, war is declared by the politician...
But this is not ok? Randomly choosing (some innocent) people to die to bring about a higher quality of living for people.
Civilian, media, and politicians all see war different then the soldier... the soldier with sand in his boots sees it differently then the one with water... does not apply to ci regardles
Another followup question to think about, since you're ok with personal sacrifice; are you ok with suicide?
Again off point but what an adult decides to do with their life is their business...assisted and otherwise...
I don't mean to put you on this spot with these questions.
Do not mind them...but try a pm next time
The point is, they're impossible questions to answer absolutely.
Nope.... ask yourself, can you deafen the cats and conduct experiments on them knowing the two hearing systems are different...can you cause the pain and suffering on another living thing with this same understanding? Ethics and morals are personal and society influanced... people are okay with it until they are faced with the reality of somwthing...
I don't think it's necessarily wrong or right to either implant or not implant babies.
Being an individual is nice isn't?
I value happiness above anything else in this world. Whichever option would bring about the greatest happiness, or gives the potential for the greatest happiness would be what I'd choose. I just don't know which that is.
Whose happiness are you more concerned with though?
pure stats When done in the "right" way
Circular issue isn't it? What is the right way... researchers will argue so much over a line... you want something that cannot be measured...the human factor ensures that there is no unbaisness ...
 
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