A Parent's joy versus animal's torment.

[Nic]

True. Yet, the majority doesn't think it would matter.

Again, is medical community's goal is to improve people's lives, right? That explains why the majority would choose spoken over signed if hearing loss treatment is available for their children... Older Deaf generations will die out, so it doesn't matter anymore.

The medical community doesn't care if parents teach their kid German, ASL, or any other language. If it's my culture I'm teaching it to my kid. In fact if I had kids I'd expose them to all sorts of cultures nice and early. Why wait for college uni when it typically happens?

If I were a parent of a Deaf baby, and I saw the research that says my kid will have a happier better life and succeed more in school if I teach them ASL, I'd be teaching them ASL.

I'm an ASL advocate. I like languages and bilingual youth learn them more easily later and their brains are more elastic. There's no reason not to learn beyond not wanting to.

Minority cultures and languages can flourish. There are countless examples

So again. If Deaf culture is really more than just being deaf, it'll be fine.

 

[Reba]

True. Yet, the majority doesn't think it would matter.

Again, is medical community's goal is to improve people's lives, right? That explains why the majority would choose spoken over signed if hearing loss treatment is available for their children…

It depends on whether the medical community's definition of improvement is the same as the "improvement" recipient's definition.

Older Deaf generations will die out, so it doesn't matter anymore.

New generations will be added. Who knows what they will be doing?

 

[Reba]

It's interesting that even as CI technology has been developing, so has technology and legislature been developing that supports ASL use.

Some examples: The ADA provides more support for interpreters, VRS provides a way for signers to communicate with non-signers, more schools are adding ASL classes to their curriculum, emailing and texting fill the telephoning gap, and there are all kinds of signaling devices for alarms and notifications. Young people are becoming more empowered to sign in public. These are things that support more use of signing, not less.

 

[Nic]

Well ive been in this for 30 years, in 30 years if your as optimistic as you are now...
Cool...

If Deaf culture isn't just about being deaf, then why would Deaf culture go away when deafness goes away? There are a ton of small cultures that stay in tact. Culture is passed in families, communities, etc. Not by being born with a medical condition. There are plenty of deaf who aren't Deaf, and there are plenty of hearing or HOH people who are Deaf.

HOH isn't going to go away like genetic deafness, or even early deafness will. Not as soon anyway. And ASL is plenty useful to HOH folks, or folks who use CI/HA which don't work well under certain circumstances.

 

[hoichi]

How does eating a cookie help?

Answering a question with an irrelevant question doesn't answer a question at all, does it?

My question to you, along with all the other questiios ive asked you on here have been relevant Ignore them if you wish, (roll eyes)
But i am curious how your quetion to me,is in your eyes is relevant "how does arguing against ci help", yet my question to you, in which i changed a couple of words isnt? "How does ignoring it?"isnt?
What is not relavant regarding my questin?
(No need to answer, really)
Furthur, what is your motive in this discussion?

 

[hoichi]

Most people do, but minority language cultures thrive. My family taught me German while I was growing up. Not because it has practical applications, but because it was used in the house and its part of my heritage, my family's culture.

Deaf culture can survive the elimination of deafness because ASL can coexist with English, CI, HA and hearing ability. It already does.

It's suggested that learning a second language young helps brains develop well. And for Deaf/hoh there's good research that demonstrates ASL (in addition to English) helps kids succeed academically in HS and College. It's good for kids to learn. And for Deaf babies it levels the communication burden within the family.

Yet the very policies from the very people working inthe very industry, ci, dictate otherwise.
And the effects are being felt, so either your just stuck in a theory of yours, unwilling to face the hard fact on what has happened and is happening, or your just here to argue for arguing sakes.
Either will do i guess,
Carry on
Meh

 

[Bottesini]

If Deaf culture isn't just about being deaf, then why would Deaf culture go away when deafness goes away? There are a ton of small cultures that stay in tact. Culture is passed in families, communities, etc. Not by being born with a medical condition. There are plenty of deaf who aren't Deaf, and there are plenty of hearing or HOH people who are Deaf.

HOH isn't going to go away like genetic deafness, or even early deafness will. Not as soon anyway. And ASL is plenty useful to HOH folks, or folks who use CI/HA which don't work well under certain circumstances.

Unless you live a lifetime with it, you aren't going to understand.

It's absolutely happening, with implanted kids being mainstream from the get go, and never knowing another deaf person.

Then it is also now happening,that late teens are unable to easily replace their out of warranty dead processors. And they are still there in the hearing world but lost.

I know one family is financing $9000 to replace equipment .

 

[hoichi]

[

If Deaf culture isn't just about being deaf, then why would Deaf culture go away when deafness goes away? s.

Culture is deeply connected to language, by degrading ine, by preventing aquisition in babies and children, it effects fuency, that effects the ability to master the languge, in turn essentially regulating it to a secons helper, not a first language. Which drasticaly in turn strangles a culture.

There are a ton of small cultures that stay in tact. Culture is passed in families, communities, etc. s.

I dont know what planet your on,but on the planet earth, minority languages globaly are not thriving, it is the opposite actually

Not by being born with a medical condition. There are plenty of deaf who aren't Deaf, and there are plenty of hearing or HOH people who are Deaf.s.

And water is wet

HOH isn't going to go away like genetic deafness, or even early deafness will. Not as soon anyway. And ASL is plenty useful to HOH folks, or folks who use CI/HA which don't work well under certain circumstances.

Yes it is

 

[Nic]

My question to you, along with all the other questiios ive asked you on here have been relevant Ignore them if you wish, (roll eyes)
But i am curious how your quetion to me,is in your eyes is relevant "how does arguing against ci help", yet my question to you, in which i changed a couple of words isnt? "How does ignoring it?"isnt?
What is not relavant regarding my questin?
(No need to answer, really)
Furthur, what is your motive in this discussion?

Motive... that'd suggest I have a plan. I'm just making conversation and I guess trying to figure out where you're coming from exactly.

I still don't understand your motive, why it is that you're so completely against CI in babies, so much so that you interject in just about every thread where CI/HA are mentioned and say Sign will set you free and other such things, but at the same time think Deaf culture is doomed, there's nothing you can do about, and it's a losing battle.

To me, it suggests that you either don't believe that's true (that it's a losing battle) and you hold out some hope, or you're just trolling about to entertain yourself while the world burns around you. You have too much passion to just be trolling about though, so I believe you hold hope. I believe you want to make a change. So maybe part of my motive is to help you see a way to make that a reality too.

Ok irrelivant was the wrong response. I should have dropped that word and just said answering a question with a question isn't an answer.

"How does ignoring it" help?

I'm not ignoring it is my answer to that question. My approach would assimilate CI users into Deaf culture. I mean, it's happening already anyway, we don't have to do anything to make it keep happening. I heard Gally is like 50% CI users now and there's a very clear acceptance of CI in the greater Deaf community. I just keep suggesting that instead of shouting against CI in children, we shout for ASL in children and their parents. It's an inclusive strategy, to grow the community.

I tend to focus down a problem to a root, one that isn't rock solid and next to impossible to change. Getting rid of CI, stopping a "cure" for deafness, these are indeed things that would preserve Deaf culture. But, they're next to impossible to achieve, and there are strong arguments that suggest that approach wouldn't achieve the greatest possible happiness for the Deaf populous either.

So instead, I see that Deaf culture is potentially threatened by a cure for deafness, it will decrease the introduction of new Deaf community members. So instead of taking on an impossible battle, I look for another approach. I see that ASL is the glue that binds the Deaf community together (language often is, makes sense). There are also great research studies, great first hand experience, and an abundant of strong arguments that suggest learning ASL is a good thing to do. Deaf, HOH, a hearing parent of a deaf baby, friend of an ASL user, family of an ASL user, someone interested in language, regular scuba diver, etc. it doesn't matter, learning ASL is great.

So with all that knowledge it's easy to connect the dots. More ASL users means larger Deaf community. Larger Deaf community means stronger Deaf community. Stronger Deaf community means more firmly grounded, and here to stay Deaf culture, regardless of the future state of human deafness.

Encouraging more use of ASL, more learning of ASL, that's feasible. Where as fighting against a cure for deafness... It's not going to get you anywhere except alienating the mainstream culture and making them think you're off your rocker.

Look, you say I have to escape the medical paradigm, this is exactly that. It's setting it aside and saying hey Deaf means more than being deaf, it's about ASL, it's about history, it's a shared heritage, and it's a rich and beautiful culture. The culture needs to be able to survive without the medical paradigm, or the medical paradigm defines the culture.


So I guess your question is seen as irrelevant to me because I've determined that approach, attacking CI and a cure for deafness to be irrelevant itself. It can't work.

 

[Nic]

Unless you live a lifetime with it, you aren't going to understand.

It's absolutely happening, with implanted kids being mainstream from the get go, and never knowing another deaf person.

Then it is also now happening,that late teens are unable to easily replace their out of warranty dead processors. And they are still there in the hearing world but lost.

I know one family is financing $9000 to replace equipment .

Botts, that's an awesome argument to suggest that ASL be taught along side CI and mainstream. ASL doesn't have batteries that can die, a processor that break or be misplaced, or dropped int he ocean, etc. etc. And research suggests Deaf/HOH kids who learn ASL in addition to mainstream do perform better academically in HS and college. There are super awesome arguments for pro-ASL. There is no doubt in my mind that Deaf/HOH kids should learn ASL and English. Both, not just one or the other.

Hoichi argues against CI instead of arguing for ASL. It's easy to dismiss someone who is trying to take something away when that something has strong evidence to suggest it can make a big impact on a kids life. If instead it was pushed that in addition to implanting their baby they also have their child learn ASL because A, B, and C arguments all of which suggest their kid will have a better, happier, more successful life, parents are so much more likely to listen.

I also get that I won't understand it the same way you and Hoichi do because I haven't spent a lifetime with it. But I have a stronger grasp on hearing culture and we're talking about hearing parents of deaf babies. The parents are making the decision and I get where they're coming from.

 

[Nic]

Culture is deeply connected to language, by degrading ine, by preventing aquisition in babies and children, it effects fuency, that effects the ability to master the languge, in turn essentially regulating it to a secons helper, not a first language. Which drasticaly in turn strangles a culture.

I dont know what planet your on,but on the planet earth, minority languages globaly are not thriving, it is the opposite actually

And water is wet

Yes it is

If all this is true, why then would the elimination of deafness equate to the destruction of Deaf culture?

Amish don't acquire new Amish due to a medical condition.

Thriving... depends on your definition. Thriving could mean becoming the majority, or it could mean being a population of roughly consistent size that preserves it culture. Some cultures will survive, some cultures won't. It's the strength and will of the culture that determines that. There are examples on both sides, minority cultures doing well and minority cultures vanishing.

 

[hoichi]

[

Need? So what if they reduce the need for ASL? Is there a need for Icelandic, Sami, any of the Native American language? Is there a need for any language beyond a few wide spread ones?.

They are not only reducing the need, their policies are targeting the languages spread and use, by preventing its aquisition.

They're also not trying to reduce the need for ASL, they're trying to reduce the incidence of deafness (the medical condition). .

Thats not true, if it was the policies against sign aquistion wouldnt exist would they?

Reducing the need for ASL is a bi-product. Kind of like teaching English as a requirement in Germany. It reduces the need for German, but it's not an attempt to wipe out German culture..

Its nothing of the sort.

Need doesn't dictate usage. If ASL is a strong enough language, and the culture is strong enough, it'll persist regardless of need..

How will it be strong enough if its aquistion is severely restricted,impeded, and its fluency reduced?

Icelandic culture is thriving, The Sami of Northern Norway are still around, and they still yoik. The Native Americans are still using their languages and trying to keep their cultures alive and well. People like the preservation of culture.
.

Iceland has a state, its own nation and territory. As for native americans, whic tribeand reserve are you refering to? In canada colonilism and conquest have wiped oit entire language groups and tribes. Native languages are still used, but depending on where you are, greately diminsihed. Amongst the mowhak of which im fimilar (im white), there has been a great effort to try to save what remains, fluency is not widespread, there is w huge difference between a language thriving, wnd a language fighting to survive. It should be noted the polices inresedential schols for natives, against the use of their langauage, snd the banning of their cuture, was essentialy the swme policies against sign in Ddaf schools regarding its use for almost a century....you seem to think the above woukd have little or no effect on where we are now, and how well we are able to cope with fontinued pressure on our language and culture.

This is my whole point. Technology will absolutely "cure" deafness eventually. It's going to happen, not if but when. ASL can persist without deafness. Deaf culture can persist without deafness. It's an alternative, a supplement. Like Icelandic, Sami, and any of the Native American languages. It's part of a rich heritage, culture, and community. .

Thats some happy thinking...and i appreciate it. But if looking globally at the state of minoity languages it doesnt look good.
Keep your happy thoughts though, charish them while you have them.

Need is irrelevant. If need is the only thing holding Deaf culture together, then Hoichi is right, Deaf culture is doomed..

Need is not the only thing, but it certainly is relavant

Everyone keeps saying that Deaf isn't just a medical condition, but at the same time argues that eliminating the medical condition will eliminate Deaf culture. These are mutually exclusive, only one can be true. I personally feel that Deaf isn't just a medical condition, and eliminating deafness will not kill of Deaf culture. Deaf means so much more than deaf..

Its not just a medical condition, thats one part of it, a model, a paradigm that is used sure, but it is not the only part of it. And policy of ci professionals also hold this, as their policy clearly demonstrates that to them, its more then a medical condition, thus they enact the policies against sign aquistion in our young. Human beings are conplex beings, rarely an either or hokds true for people. Deaf can be Deaf, or deaf can be deaf,
Indeed it means so much more to be Deaf then deaf,but how well can our culture thrive while having the aquistion of our langauge inour young impeded and prevented?

Sidenote: @Hoichi, if you're going to reply to one of my posts, pick this one. Karissa's perspective refocused mine, and this raises new questions, instead of rehashing old ones.

Cool

 

[Nic]

Thats some happy thinking...and i appreciate it. But if looking globally at the state of minoity languages it doesnt look good.
Keep your happy thoughts though, charish them while you have them.

There are only a few courses of action you can take when you come to this conclusion. You can either do something to help your culture become stronger. You can do nothing and let everyone else determine its fate. Or you can rant and rave and watch the world burn, effectively doing nothing of consequence.

Personally, I see potential for the strengthening of Deaf culture. I think there are ways Deaf culture can persist without deafness. Maybe I'm naive. Maybe it is doomed. But if I accept something as doomed with no chance of me having any impact, I write that thing off right then and there and walk away. There's no point dwelling over something you can't change. It doesn't help, it doesn't make you happier, it doesn't do anything of consequence except maybe bring on sadness and depression.

Really though, I'm not entirely sure why you're trying to convince me there's no course of action that can save it. Seems odd.

 

[hoichi]

[

Motive... that'd suggest I have a plan. I'm just making conversation and I guess trying to figure out where you're coming from exactly.
rk.

Alright, could of used goal, but you awnswered it..cool

I still don't understand your motive, why it is that you're so completely against CI in babies, so much so that you interject in just about every thread where CI/HA are mentioned and say Sign will set you free and other such things, but at the same time think Deaf culture is doomed, there's nothing you can do about, and it's a losing battle. rk.

Im against ci in our babies because i see it for what it is. A technology of normalization and assimilation. We already possess a superior technology, sign. And it is this that oir babies need. Not inplants, implants are there to make you hesrie or as close as the ci allows..i bekieve and im not alone, our babies are Deaf and should be allowed to be Deaf, not assimilated into a half breed, not tossed into soul crushing mainstream alone amongst the wolves. Ci is ideologicly driven its just oralism in manifested in a technology. I want them to leave our babies and kids alone! They are obbessed to change us into hearies....and thus im opposed to it.
Yes my culture is doomed. Why i post about this? Guess im a hopeless romantic, lost causes are the only causes worth fighting for.....

To me, it suggests that you either don't believe that's true (that it's a losing battle) and you hold out some hope, or you're just trolling about to entertain yourself while the world burns around you. You have too much passion to just be trolling about though, so I believe you hold hope. I believe you want to make a change. So maybe part of my motive is to help you see a way to make that a reality too.rk.

Well see above for an awnser to this. As for you helping me see a way....thanks, but save it. Really ive been in this too long and seen what these bastards do, and how our wishes have been igbored, and dismissed. Ans acofded at and mocked, and our desires not even taken at face value...im sick od the authoritarianism of it all.."you will be assimilated".. nothing we can will stop it, whether we wish it or not...oir babies willlbe drilled into..yeah..it sucks...

Ok irrelivant was the wrong response. I should have dropped that word and just said answering a question with a question isn't an answer. rk.

Indeed

"How does ignoring it" help?

I'm not ignoring it is my answer to that question. My approach would assimilate CI users into Deaf culture. I mean, it's happening already anyway, we don't have to do anything to make it keep happening. I heard Gally is like 50% CI users now and there's a very clear acceptance of CI in the greater Deaf community. I just keep suggesting that instead of shouting against CI in children, we shout for ASL in children and their parents. It's an inclusive strategy, to grow the community.rk.

That is your approach..mine and others differs.you need to be able to acceptour other apporaches to this...

I tend to focus down a problem to a root, one that isn't rock solid and next to impossible to change. Getting rid of CI, stopping a "cure" for deafness, these are indeed things that would preserve Deaf culture. But, they're next to impossible to achieve, and there are strong arguments that suggest that approach wouldn't achieve the greatest possible happiness for the Deaf populous either. rk.

I see no strong arguments to suggest this at all. You argued allot..most of it on a postion of faith then anything else.

So instead, I see that Deaf culture is potentially threatened by a cure for deafness, it will decrease the introduction of new Deaf community members. So instead of taking on an impossible battle, I look for another approach. I see that ASL is the glue that binds the Deaf community together (language often is, makes sense). There are also great research studies, great first hand experience, and an abundant of strong arguments that suggest learning ASL is a good thing to do. Deaf, HOH, a hearing parent of a deaf baby, friend of an ASL user, family of an ASL user, someone interested in language, regular scuba diver, etc. it doesn't matter, learning ASL is great.rk.

Alright, in the end your case just rests on "its an impossible battle". Fine. But here is the thing. Isnt it ominous that they have created a technology that you yoursef admit cannot be stopped? It has alresdy diiminished freedom if its alrewdy accepted as an inevetible, nothing can stop it..this is a dangerous way to think long term. Its folly really. So they have created a tech to inplant that cannot be stkpped wether peiplw wish it or not. If thats not a requiem for freedom, i dont know what is.

So with all that knowledge it's easy to connect the dots. More ASL users means larger Deaf community. Larger Deaf community means stronger Deaf community. Stronger Deaf community means more firmly grounded, and here to stay Deaf culture, regardless of the future state of human deafness.rk.

Indeed. But that community wont be large nor strong if the ci industry gets its way,and im tsking them at their word and actions.

Encouraging more use of ASL, more learning of ASL, that's feasible. Where as fighting against a cure for deafness... It's not going to get you anywhere except alienating the mainstream culture and making them think you're off your rocker.
rk.

They dont negate eachother...i encourage asl every dam day, on here, in person..its a muti level aprroach that is needed.its a conplex threat

Look, you say I have to escape the medical paradigm, this is exactly that. It's setting it aside and saying hey Deaf means more than being deaf, it's about ASL, it's about history, it's a shared heritage, and it's a rich and beautiful culture. The culture needs to be able to survive without the medical paradigm, or the medical paradigm defines the culture.rk.

I get this, i do, but i wont ignore or shut up about what they are doing...they have entwined them not me. The minute they stop implanting our babies, ill shut up, until then, i have to be in this

So I guess your question is seen as irrelevant to me because I've determined that approach, attacking CI and a cure for deafness to be irrelevant itself. It can't work.

Thats clear enough that is your position , and appriecate you awnsering,

 

[hoichi]

There are only a few courses of action you can take when you come to this conclusion. You can either do something to help your culture become stronger. You can do nothing and let everyone else determine its fate. Or you can rant and rave and watch the world burn, effectively doing nothing of consequence..d.

Your in no position to declare my approach as to be doing nothing, you have no idea what i do. Its easy to wag a finger at others approaches as doing nothing..id rather see the results of your approsch first, before i take it as a better one.

Personally, I see potential for the strengthening of Deaf culture. I think there are ways Deaf culture can persist without deafness. Maybe I'm naive. Maybe it is doomed. But if I accept something as doomed with no chance of me having any impact, I write that thing off right then and there and walk away. There's no point dwelling over something you can't change. It doesn't help, it doesn't make you happier, it doesn't do anything of consequence except maybe bring on sadness and depression.d.

Well thats you, and how you look at it.. i look at it from other eyes and other angles..

Really though, I'm not entirely sure why you're trying to convince me there's no course of action that can save it. Seems odd.

Im not here to convince you,and besides yoir the one who is adamant and insistant there is nothing that can be done. We cant stop it, assimilation wil happen..a cure will be found.
Sure.
My position is simple
We dont need one.

 

[Nic]

Alright, in the end your case just rests on "its an impossible battle". Fine. But here is the thing. Isnt it ominous that they have created a technology that you yoursef admit cannot be stopped? It has alresdy diiminished freedom if its alrewdy accepted as an inevetible, nothing can stop it..this is a dangerous way to think long term. Its folly really. So they have created a tech to inplant that cannot be stkpped wether peiplw wish it or not. If thats not a requiem for freedom, i dont know what is.

Ominous? It only can't be stopped because most people don't want it to be stopped.

So what is it exactly that you are doing? I can only see what you do here, on these forums, where people come when they seek out Deaf culture. This is an embassy, your messaging falls on new minds, minds looking to join up. You push them away.

 

[hoichi]

[

Ominous? It only can't be stopped because most people don't want it to be stopped.
.

Wants are manufactured, wants are manipulated,its onw of the first principles of advertising and marketing. Obviously an industry with billions and the best marketing deep pockets can buy has been reaping the harvest..no kidding.

So what is it exactly that you are doing? I can only see what you do here, on these forums, where people come when they seek out Deaf culture. This is an embassy, your messaging falls on new minds, minds looking to join up. You push them away.

I push people away,you push people way. Every approach does that, people are attracted to different ways.
The second yoir approach gets the results you claim, by all means let me know. Till then all i see is you posting ssying others wont work and others should do that...but not showing any evedence yoir apporach is any betterr. Its wishfull thinking, sure, i grant.but so far thats all youve shown me.
What is it that i am doing?
Stick around and you may be invited...
What have you been doing?

 

[ambrosia]

I guess somebody should clue our school systems in on the fact that the ASL is going to die. My kids school just added ASL as a foreign language, both my kids are taking it. Seems a funny thing for the "hearies" to do when they're trying to obliterate Deaf culture.

Just so we're clear......sarcasm, that last sentence was dripping with it.

 

[hoichi]

I guess somebody should clue our school systems in on the fact that the ASL is going to die. My kids school just added ASL as a foreign language, both my kids are taking it. Seems a funny thing for the "hearies" to do when they're trying to obliterate Deaf culture.

Just so we're clear......sarcasm, that last sentence was dripping with it.

Hi ambrosia....good to see you..."-)
Its great your kids are taking ASL....wicked...wicked...
The more who sign the better.....
As for your last post....
Indeed we wont agree, on this topic...re CI...
All cool...
Always a pleasure to see and chat with with you......
Bring it on!!!!