A Parent's joy versus animal's torment.

[Nic]

Ecp was on a roll last night, and I pointed out the fallacy of her thinking in her long rant against Caz.


I was charming, but I think she cried to moderation that I was not sufficiently impressed with her.
.

So they took it all down to save her humiliation .

Just a guess...

Ah, well that clears it up. I knew this thread was dangerous. Lots of touchy topics. I'm a bit surprised it lasted as long as it did.

 

[Nic]

And all this time I thought your name meant you had something to do with network interfacing.

Haha, well that's a bit fitting too, I work with computers for a living. It's just because my name is Nick though

 

[hoichi]

[

When you attempt to debate: it's not time to hit your pipe heavily.

This wasnt a debate, it was a civil friendly discussion, as for the pipe, ill hit it any damn well time i wish, thank you very much..

Your posts are full of spelling, grammar, .

We dont wag a finger at spelling and grammar erros on this site.

and logic errors.

Pls by all means point them out, id love to discuss them with you

You aren't trying to be creative when you debate. That's essentially trolling..

Given your participation in this discussion, you are in no postion to wag your finger at who is a troll or not. Now bugger off to a mirror, a troll will be looking right back at you.

Nic is hardly alienating anyone by arguing for ASL. .

That is not the only thing nic is arguing for, and you know it. Im aslo arguing for asl, are stating me and nic are arguing for the same thing?

CIs aren't going anywhere. .

Indeed

Treatment for hearing loss and eventual cures will always be pursued. The cold, hard reality is that deafness is a disability as defined in the dictionary. .

That is one defintion, but there is more to life then a dictionary.

Parents and people are going to choose the path that provides evening the odds and independence. .

Thats a faith based statement, ive asked a few questions in this thread, heres one for you, does it?

You should be flattered Nic has engaged you for this long. She will be an awesome parent if she isn't already. Amazing level of patience. No one will humor your nonsense outside the confines of this website or other heavily Deaf-cultured environments. I would hope you are aware of this. Your best bet is to champion ASL and drop the nonsense. .

Wel thank you, for your kind words

Don't ever take your comparison of implanting infants to "a cure for black people" outside of this thread. You will be laughed at and ignored, and rightfully so. It's ridiculously bad. Don't embarrass your community.

It actually isnt my comparison, if you educated yourself beyond the confines of a dictionary and stiff upper lip grammar rules, you would be aware its been a comparison in the literature, in some of the very books i have recomended on here, since the beggining of implants..dont embarrass yourself now, bugger of to that mirror a troll will be there staring right at you...

 

[hoichi]

[

I disregard history across the board when history holds back progression. I live here and now, and here and now this is what can help.)

I get that, the plm is history is very much a living reality, considering the fundemental issues are atill present in multple forms. Audism,discrimination, so on. It would not serve me well, a stranger to wander though harlem, go to the black historu museum there, and tell them and everyone else.to get over it. Its history, to live in the here and now...that would be a case of some fast alienating on my part. Feell free to engage with us any way you wish, im just giving you a friendly tip.

The difference in our approaches is generational. My approach might alienate the old, your approach probably alienates the new. Which group is the future of the culture?)

You claim this, but your ignoring the true reasons. I doubt yoir approach will be the star you think..

Side note: this thread got pruned pretty heavily, what's up with that? (or am I just seeing more posts per page now?)

No clue

 

[hoichi]

Ecp was on a roll last night, and I pointed out the fallacy of her thinking in her long rant against Caz.


I was charming, but I think she cried to moderation that I was not sufficiently impressed with her.
.

So they took it all down to save her humiliation .

Just a guess...

Damn...what i miss?
Shucks...

 

[Nic]

That is not the only thing nic is arguing for, and you know it. Im aslo arguing for asl, are stating me and nic are arguing for the same thing?

At the core, it is the primary thing I'm arguing for. Secondary thing is arguing for you to use the push for ASL as a replacement to the push against CI; to take a more positive approach and (I think) achieve greater results.

You claim this, but your ignoring the true reasons. I doubt yoir approach will be the star you think.

As a very small sample, look at the comments that came in this thread from others. A positive argument will always sway more rational minded people to its side than a negative approach.

It's also not the Deaf community that you have to sway. It's hearing parents of deaf babies.

 

[hoichi]

At the core, it is the primary thing I'm arguing for. Secondary thing is arguing for you to use the push for ASL as a replacement to the push against CI; to take a more positive approach and (I think) achieve greater results.

As a very small sample, look at the comments that came in this thread from others. A positive argument will always sway more rational minded people to its side than a negative approach.

It's also not the Deaf community that you have to sway. It's hearing parents of deaf babies.

I aslo argue for asl, i find my approach more positive then yours, it certainly is more empowering. In my eyes, living life no wires attached,no thrid party multi nationals middlemen between experience, is a far better option all round. as yours is still rooted in a negative, a thing that must be cured,an afflction that must be fixed.
But feel free to paint that positive if you wish.
This thread certainly those who swung in n support of your position isnt anything much to be proud off, if bleedingpurist and echo are anything to go by,
Now, ive recomended some reading for you. If you wish to take the time and do it, some of those authors are rather serious hitters. I doubt you will be able to quickly dismiss, its in your hands if you want to grow or not.
We have dicussed a few things, policies of implant professionals, historical discrimination, curent discrimination,the policy of hearing professionals against sign, allot here.do yourself a favor and dive in.every thing ive brought up is a fact. Fell free to demonstrate otherwise, And when i asked you some questions, youve ignored them, which is fine, we all grow at our own pace. And being new to us,to Deaf, time is needed for you to get a handle on what weve been through, and daily still endure.
Im not here to convince you, thats never been my motive or goal, i dont find it surprising in the least that a man who works in high tech industry has a hard on for ci, you may feel the need to give me that credit..cool, but if your intelectually honest you know thats bull.
So i support asl,
You suppor asl
Looks like on that we agree.
Get those books, most are availible on line, if you took the time to look

 

[Nic]

I aslo argue for asl, i find my approach more positive then yours, it certainly is more empowering. In my eyes, living life no wires attached,no thrid party multi nationals middlemen between experience, is a far better option all round. as yours is still rooted in a negative, a thing that must be cured,an afflction that must be fixed.
But feel free to paint that positive if you wish.
This thread certainly those who swung in n support of your position isnt anything much to be proud off, if bleedingpurist and echo are anything to go by,
Now, ive recomended some reading for you. If you wish to take the time and do it, some of those authors are rather serious hitters. I doubt you will be able to quickly dismiss, its in your hands if you want to grow or not.
We have dicussed a few things, policies of implant professionals, historical discrimination, curent discrimination,the policy of hearing professionals against sign, allot here.do yourself a favor and dive in.every thing ive brought up is a fact. Fell free to demonstrate otherwise, And when i asked you some questions, youve ignored them, which is fine, we all grow at our own pace. And being new to us,to Deaf, time is needed for you to get a handle on what weve been through, and daily still endure.
Im not here to convince you, thats never been my motive or goal, i dont find it surprising in the least that a man who works in high tech industry has a hard on for ci, you may feel the need to give me that credit..cool, but if your intelectually honest you know thats bull.
So i support asl,
You suppor asl
Looks like on that we agree.
Get those books, most are availible on line, if you took the time to look

I've looked them up and put them on my list. I don't have as much time to read books as I'd like right now though, but I will get to them. The Harlan book, based on reviews, seems negative and maybe a bit extreme at times. Some people even went as far to call him nuts and dangerous. But also said it does have some good solid factual data too. The other seems more balanced, I'll probably pick it up first.

The negativity I am referring to is in the argument not the follow through. You see it as negative to live with wires, others don't, it doesn't matter. But by telling them that they (or their child) shouldn't have something, it's a negative. You're essentially taking something away from them. Whereas telling someone they should have ASL is a positive, you're giving them something else, welcoming them into an additional community and culture. Much more positive.

Look, I'm not trying to make myself proud or even better the world. I'm here to learn, meet some new people, have jolly conversation, etc.. But I do identify potential for change and I'm frequently driven to share my perspective in the hope someone will be able to use some of my ideas to bring about a change for the better.

My perspective is that of a hearie first and foremost. I'm maybe more thoughtful than most (honestly doubt this), and I do have more first hand experience than most hearies (since I'm HOH), but first and foremost my life was spent in the hearing world. I get how these people think. I've spent decades analyzing how people think. I'm just sharing with you the perspective of someone who could be swayed either way and letting you know how I believe it's best to do that.

You're passionate, but your message frequently sounds like that of someone who is already defeated. You care, but it often seems you've given up. I'm a realist too, change is tough and sometimes it's impossible. Sometimes it'll happen no matter what you do. But other times, there are rare opportunities to make a big impact and help something you care deeply about. I honestly think this is one of those times. I can see the problem, I can see a solution, I see how it can all fit together, I can see how to bring it around, but I'm an outsider. I can't make it happen, not yet.

The question comes down to goals. Is your goal to preserve ASL and Deaf culture, or is your goal to get people to stop implanting deaf babies with CI?

 

[BleedingPurist]

Thanks BleedingPurist.

I'm not a parent and actually don't intend to be. Also a he, not a she. I'd have taken Nick as my username but it was taken, somehow Nic wasn't so I went for it. It's a bit androgynous so easy mistake, definitely no worries

Oops! Sorry, Nick! I should have trusted my initial hesitation on going with a specific pronoun.

 

[Nic]

Oops! Sorry, Nick! I should have trusted my initial hesitation on going with a specific pronoun.

It's really not a problem. I just thought I should correct to make it clear in case others picked up on it.

 

[BleedingPurist]

Ecp was on a roll last night, and I pointed out the fallacy of her thinking in her long rant against Caz.


I was charming, but I think she cried to moderation that I was not sufficiently impressed with her.
.

So they took it all down to save her humiliation .

Just a guess...

Actually, she clarified that the bulk of her post was not aimed at Caz.

She didn't have anything to be humiliated about. Let's not sensationalize, Bott. You're better than that (and I say this with sincerity and respect.)

 

[BleedingPurist]

[
It actually isnt my comparison, if you educated yourself beyond the confines of a dictionary and stiff upper lip grammar rules, you would be aware its been a comparison in the literature, in some of the very books i have recomended on here, since the beggining of implants..dont embarrass yourself now, bugger of to that mirror a troll will be there staring right at you...

Then that absolves you a bit, but does not pose as a shining recommendation for those books. Nic has already gone over the differences, so I'm not going to repeat them.

 

[dogmom]

Hey hoichi...I get your comparisons...


<just genral sharing here>
one thing about privilege- hearing privilege, white privilege etc....it's connected.
i see through the lens of someone who has white privilege but also knows things that only "difference" can teach. I'm Jewish, female-identified, hoh, bisexual...have learning disabilities . I've been in the Special Education system and been a DVR client. I know what it feels like to be alone, to be the "they" <"what 'they' do">, to have no words for the experience of marginality<but in my mind I have the picture>...to know fear and anger -fear and anger for cultural loss...anger for being told that you and your experience doesn't matter, your experience is invalid.
i know what it is to feel empowered when i sign <poorly> and alone when i speak...


Only living as "other" sometimes, can someone really get something.

 

[hoichi]

Then that absolves you a bit, but does not pose as a shining recommendation for those books. Nic has already gone over the differences, so I'm not going to repeat them.

To be clear, the comparison is not Deaf compared to black as you paint it. Its one od the discrimination both minorities hwve suffered from and still suffer from and the use of medicak science and technology to address the discrimination inflicted on those minorities.
Now bugger off to that mirror

 

[hoichi]

[

I've looked them up and put them on my list. I don't have as much time to read books as I'd like right now though, but I will get to them. The Harlan book, based on reviews, seems negative and maybe a bit extreme at times. Some people even went as far to call him nuts and dangerous. But also said it does have some good solid factual data too. The other seems more balanced, I'll probably pick it up first.CI?

No plm....when you get to them...all cool...

The negativity I am referring to is in the argument not the follow through. You see it as negative to live with wires, others don't, it doesn't matter. But by telling them that they (or their child) shouldn't have something, it's a negative. You're essentially taking something away from them. Whereas telling someone they should have ASL is a positive, you're giving them something else, welcoming them into an additional community and culture. Much more positive.CI?

Its more conplex then as you paint it. I have no plm pointing out a negative, if its ture,it should be known. I hwve met w fair many inplwnted kkds who now suffer recurrent life altering migrains due to it...and they wish tobgod they wouks been given at least a choice...instead to suffer, inplant on or not...thats one psrt of it,another is the simple.fact of it a crutch, a third party middlman between experience, another as we have discussed is the very policy against early sign language aquision in children by industry professionals..all can be taken seperate, all as a whole, all are deeply related to each other. Non should be ignored, or disnissed.
Along with that of course is the very real alternative, sign, the superior technology

Look, I'm not trying to make myself proud or even better the world. I'm here to learn, meet some new people, have jolly conversation, etc.. But I do identify potential for change and I'm frequently driven to share my perspective in the hope someone will be able to use some of my ideas to bring about a change for the better.CI?

Alright

My perspective is that of a hearie first and foremost. I'm maybe more thoughtful than most (honestly doubt this), and I do have more first hand experience than most hearies (since I'm HOH), but first and foremost my life was spent in the hearing world. I get how these people think. I've spent decades analyzing how people think. I'm just sharing with you the perspective of someone who could be swayed either way and letting you know how I believe it's best to do that.CI?

I get that, but doubt you were ooen to being swayed ewither way, im not suprised a guy who works in hiigh tech, sides with implants..really

You're passionate, but your message frequently sounds like that of someone who is already defeated. You care, but it often seems you've given up. I'm a realist too, change is tough and sometimes it's impossible. Sometimes it'll happen no matter what you do. But other times, there are rare opportunities to make a big impact and help something you care deeply about. I honestly think this is one of those times. I can see the problem, I can see a solution, I see how it can all fit together, I can see how to bring it around, but I'm an outsider. I can't make it happen, not yet.
CI?

Given how successfull they have been, and throughouly bulling and berating Deaf who are opposed has been, and how vast ci deep pockets wre...yeah...its a grim future...

The question comes down to goals. Is your goal to preserve ASL and Deaf culture, or is your goal to get people to stop implanting deaf babies with CI?

Those goals are related and deeply conected due to polices of ci professionals, and the very idea of assimlation at all costs rather then respecting diveristy in how humans experience life.

 

[Nic]

Then that absolves you a bit, but does not pose as a shining recommendation for those books. Nic has already gone over the differences, so I'm not going to repeat them.

I think that comparison was designed to stir emotion, and make someone react. Probably with the goal of making them realize that Deaf culture is a culture, and that we wouldn't typically use technology to make some minority culture be like mainstream.

But the immediate problem with the comparison lies in what is being changed. Something superficial, skin color, or an entire sense, hearing. It's like being able to walk, or being able to see; abilities. Skin color doesn't have the same implication in ability. It somewhat invalidates the comparison. But I do get what it's purpose is.

Among Deaf, it was not-hearing that was the foundation of the culture. Now, though, simply not hearing isn't the key anymore. Some born deaf never learn ASL, and aren't part of the Deaf community. Also more and more Deaf who are part of the community do have CI, and some level of hearing, and that's accepted. This is the more important aspect really, CI is accepted, so now CI is [becoming] part of the culture.

I think arguing pro-ASL is just super strong, and packed full of good. There are very strong pro-ASL argument in-spite of any other options. There's solid research to support pro-ASL arguments too. It's why I recommend arguing pro-ASL and dropping the anti-CI rhetoric.

That's really the core of what I've been trying to get at.

I'm sort of worn out on the topic for the time being though. I've boiled down everything I said to what's in this post. It sums it all up nicely for me. Plus, we should be talking about the kittens, not really anti-CI vs pro-ASL approaches to help preserve Deaf culture.

 

[Bottesini]

Actually, she clarified that the bulk of her post was not aimed at Caz.

She didn't have anything to be humiliated about. Let's not sensationalize, Bott. You're better than that (and I say this with sincerity and respect.)

Truthfully, I was being polite..

I thought it likely she understood Caz, but wanted an opportunity for CI rant.

I am actually working on my social skills and trying not to be so blunt.

Oh, on the humiliation thing, when you underestimate your audience and think they can't see you motives, you should be ashamed.

 

[Nic]

I get that, but doubt you were ooen to being swayed ewither way, im not suprised a guy who works in hiigh tech, sides with implants..really

Nah, actually I was swayed in the course of this thread. I made up my mind about adult implants a long time ago, but for kids I was unsure.

Now I'm quite a bit more sure that kids can be implanted if parents wish it, and we should be ok with that. But at the same time I'm convinced that deaf babies should be taught ASL and so should the parents. This all happened in this thread. And truthfully, even now I could change my mind. I change my mind about things all the time, and I try to stay as open as possible to new ideas.

Tech sort of... more so higher ed, academia, research schools to be more specific. It's supporting all that which makes me feel my job isn't a waste of time, or just a means to make money. Research schools can do so much good, any educational institutes can really.

 

[Nic]

Truthfully, I was being polite..

I thought it likely she understood Caz, but wanted an opportunity for CI rant.

I am actually working on my social skills and trying not to be so blunt.

Oh, on the humiliation thing, when you underestimate your audience and think they can't see you motives, you should be ashamed.

I've noticed you can be a bit blunt, I kind of like it though.

Blunt just means you're open to share a truthful opinion. It feels more honest to me, than walking on eggshells or something to save someone's feelings in the moment.

 

[hoichi]

[

I think that comparison was designed to stir emotion, and make someone react. Probably with the goal of making them realize that Deaf culture is a culture, and that we wouldn't typically use technology to make some minority culture be like mainstream.re.

That is one part of it, and the qustion needs to be asked as ive asked it early in the thread why is technological assimilation ised and pushed on one Deaf,and not the other black

But the immediate problem with the comparison lies in what is being changed. Something superficial, skin color, or an entire sense, hearing.re.

The comparison rests not on the what is being changed, skin color, lack of hearing,but on the WHY it is being changed. Thats the issue. It comes down to discrimination. And thats the key. The chnges sought are sought to address discrinination, the well dronee idea though hardly real that ci gives more oppurtunities, so on. The reason those oppurtunites are lacking in the first place is due to rampant audism and discrimination. Ci wasnt developed for music enjoyment, the gowls were more lofty, the goals were the same oralist goals of assimilation. This is one reason history is inportant, because ideology spwns generations, juat s racism does, so does oralism and audism...these ideoogies share some importsnt features. One is the unwillingness to accept diversity. All must be the ssme...(white) or your inferioe..(racism), all must be hearie or inferior..(audism) one must speak as a hearie or as cmose as possible, and no be Deaf..(oralism)...ideology very much drives men...

It's like being able to walk, or being able to see; abilities. Skin color doesn't have the same implication in ability. It somewhat invalidates the comparison. But I do get what it's purpose is.re.

Your only viewing it through the medical paradagm...its much nore then the ability or lack of it....

Among Deaf, it was not-hearing that was the foundation of the culture. Now, though, simply not hearing isn't the key anymore. Some born deaf never learn ASL, and aren't part of the Deaf community. Also more and more Deaf who are part of the community do have CI, and some level of hearing, and that's accepted. This is the more important aspect really, CI is accepted, so now CI is [becoming] part of the culture.re.

Right....and it was essentialy forced fown our throats,againat our oppostion, in some countires no choice at all, in others extreme coercion, in othees manipulation, in wll oir Deaf ideas and oir Deaf wishes were igbored, scoffed, and generally disnissed... so now sure its getting aceoted...not by a choice...but by being forced...here too is whwre history will help you..

I think arguing pro-ASL is just super strong, and packed full of good. There are very strong pro-ASL argument in-spite of any other options. There's solid research to support pro-ASL arguments too. It's why I recommend arguing pro-ASL and dropping the anti-CI rhetoric.

That's really the core of what I've been trying to get at.re.

Then do so...but im not the tyoe to ignore what they are doing...you can though

I'm sort of worn out on the topic for the time being though. I've boiled down everything I said to what's in this post. It sums it all up nicely for me. Plus, we should be talking about the kittens, not really anti-CI vs pro-ASL approaches to help preserve Deaf culture.

Warn out already? Ha!! Its a been a week or so on the thread...ive been in this for 30 years....
Tsk tsk.