School for the Deaf denies deaf child with Down Syndrome placement

[jillio]

Wirelessly posted

but how will she be served in a hearing setting? She needs free communication, and that will not happen unless she is in a deaf setting. I feel like you are saying deaf schools show be for "vanilla deaf" only. They should be for any child with a hearing loss. If the child is an asl user, the LRE will be with other asl users. The deaf school MUST provide accomodations for this child's special needs, just like a hearing school would for a hearing child with ds.

Well now you are just being silly.

No, they do not have to initiate a program just for this child. It is not up to the deaf school to either begin services or find appropriate placement. It is up to the home school to do so.

So, deaf schools should be for any child with a hearing loss, no matter that their cognitive needs go unmet. Yeah, there's a good plan for assisting a student in optimal functioning.:roll:

 

[Bottesini]

Yes, of course there are. As a matter of fact, most DS programs now include sign in their curriculum and language of instruction simply because the research has shown the benefit to DS children, including the hearing DS children.

Thought so. And I think the child would get more benefit from a program tailored that way.

 

[jillio]

As far as I know of, yes. I have encountered parents who have mentally challenged children that they, and the child, both learn ASL as a form of communication where other forms of communication are difficult. I work with a woman who has a mentally challenged child; he is now in his mid-20's (I have met him) and still lives at home with his parents (his mom said he always will, unless they can find an appropriate living placement for him) and their primary form of communication is ASL. She often signs with me at work.

Yes, ASL has been used widely in recent years with Down's Syndrome and Autistic children to facilitate communication. It has shown to provide many benefits. That is why most programs for these kids have signing staff available, and why it is used in their classrooms.

What I don't understand is why people think that you can just ignore the fact that this child has cognitive issues as a result of her Down's Syndrome, and just stick her in a classroom intended for deaf students without cognitive issues. That is the most absurd thing I have heard. ALL of her needs need to be addressed, and that cannot be done by just plopping her in a classroom of deaf students.

 

[jillio]

Thought so. And I think the child would get more benefit from a program tailored that way.

Agreed. I believe that is what I stated early in the thread. Too lazy to scroll back and see where it was, though.

The fact is, the child has Down's Syndrome. She has specialized needs as a result that will not be met by simply placing her at a deaf school that uses ASL. I can't understand why people think that would be appropriate for this child.

Looks like a couple of people are just using this situation as a vehicle for bashing the deaf school rather than looking at what would be best for the child. Shame, shame.

 

[Bottesini]

Agreed. I believe that is what I stated early in the thread. Too lazy to scroll back and see where it was, though.

The fact is, the child has Down's Syndrome. She has specialized needs as a result that will not be met by simply placing her at a deaf school that uses ASL. I can't understand why people think that would be appropriate for this child.

Looks like a couple of people are just using this situation as a vehicle for bashing the deaf school rather than looking at what would be best for the child. Shame, shame.

Well, then give me credit for absorbing the information, even if I quickly forgot where!

 

[jillio]

Well, then give me credit for absorbing the information, even if I quickly forgot where!

I always give you credit, Bott!:P I was just using that as an example of my agreement with you.

 

[TheOracle]

Deaf ed is about educating deaf children.

Just the ones that don't have cognitive issues?

But simply placing a child with cognitive disability in a deaf classroom of average functioning deaf students does not address her needs.

They do it in mainstream. But anyway, I don't know this school and we don't know this student. Rejecting her on grounds of DS only sounds harsh.

Any more than putting a student with cognitive disabilities in a classroom of average functioning hearing students would address a hearing student's needs.

Tell it to the masses. Her other option is MOST LIKELY a school that can't meet her language needs.

You cannot presume that the school has SPED resources.

Didn't. But they probably should.

That is the whole issue. Deaf education is specialized methodology designed to address the cognitive and linguisitic needs associated with deafness.

Agreed.

It is not special ed. It does not address the cognitive delays that are indicative of DS.

If people are so adamant about Deaf schools, why reach only the typical deaf?

I do not feel that it is a disservice not to admit her based on the fact that she may be using a little sign.

We don't know what her abilities are!

What are her receptive levels? What are her expressive levels? Why would you propose putting a child in a classroom where she cannot function at the same level of the other students, linquistically, socially, or academically? Simply based on the fact that she can use a degree of manual communication?

Now it looks like you are making assumptions about the girl.

From what Shel has said, all kinds of deaf kids come in to the school...and they're not all socially apt, ASL fluent, or on par with academics.

I don't know about this certain school. I'm just saying, damn. Feel sorry for that kiddo.

 

[TheOracle]

Thought so. And I think the child would get more benefit from a program tailored that way.

From what i have *personally* seen, SEE is used in SPED programs. I have NEVER seen ASL with autistics or Down Syndrome. It was always SEE or a few ASL signs. The only ASL I know of is from that experience...I could be wrong (and i hope so) but with terps and the views on ASL, it would be surprising.

I'd like to see cites where ASL is used for DS, cause that'd be a great step forward!

 

[TheOracle]

Agreed. I believe that is what I stated early in the thread. Too lazy to scroll back and see where it was, though.

The fact is, the child has Down's Syndrome. She has specialized needs as a result that will not be met by simply placing her at a deaf school that uses ASL. I can't understand why people think that would be appropriate for this child.

Looks like a couple of people are just using this situation as a vehicle for bashing the deaf school rather than looking at what would be best for the child. Shame, shame.

We are not saying the school is automatically appropriate.

We're wondering why it's automatically inappropriate. That's all. No deaf school bashing. Easy, jillz.

 

[shel90]

So who has the responsibility of educating this child? If language is the single most important success factor in any child's life, then why not place her in an environment where she can communicate? I have met a lot of kids with DS. Some have very low 'intelligence' based on tests, but some are a shade shy of MMR.


I'm not convinced this is a case where the school just can't meet her needs. :/ Children who are functioning with DS fare pretty decently being partially mainstreamed (from what I've seen). They usually need extras like basic care, money management, transitional services, whatever. If this girl is deaf and DS, then I'm almost betting she'd suffer more in an environment without ASL or deaf sensitivities.

edit: again, we don't know the details. i'm just going off the impression that CSign gave.

That's why I asked CSign if the school has the resources and the trained staff. Not enough information was given by the OP.

 

[shel90]

We don't know her ASL needs or levels. But some kids go to Deaf school and have zero ASL.

Anyway, as far as her placement goes -- it is norm for DS to be mainstreamed most of the day, provided they are met in terms of emotional and social needs. Interaction with typical children is a damned good thing for a lot of kids with 'special needs'.

I hate having 15 IEPs in my class and trying to meet everyone's needs and having 10 AHD a-holes and juggle it all while trying to retain a degree of actual academics while addressing the rest of the class that, you know, wants to learn.

But your DS child may not be, oh, talking in depth about the framers of the constitution, but that doesn't mean he/she can't grasp the concepts of natural rights or human conflict.

Like I said...we don't know about this kid...but being deaf is -10 right now. There's already a speech/language issue, a cognitive disability and specific educational needs. *sigh* If the child had some kind of HA before, it's possible she has a degree of English already.

Edit: If this girl signs, even if it's bad sign, and she's at a certain age/language level, then it's a serious disservice to not admit her. FJ has a point. In a 'typical' DS case, the LRE is mainstreamed most of the time or part of the day. It is extremely beneficial for the child.

If that can be transferred to a Deaf school for this child, then yes, that is the reasonable LRE environment. It could just be that the school doesn't want to deal with it. They presumably have SPED resources. I donno. It could be a matter of language, but I still argue that for her social development, she does need to be 'with her peers'. If her respective peers are hearing and do not know ASL or have any understanding of deafness, that's only going to make an unfortunate situation worse.

I thought deaf ed was about educating deaf children.

Yes it is but would you place a deaf-blind child in a classroom full of deaf children with vision without any support or resources?

 

[shel90]

Isn't there any program including ASL for mentally challenged children?

Yes there are but in that area? I dont know.

 

[shel90]

Agreed. I believe that is what I stated early in the thread. Too lazy to scroll back and see where it was, though.

The fact is, the child has Down's Syndrome. She has specialized needs as a result that will not be met by simply placing her at a deaf school that uses ASL. I can't understand why people think that would be appropriate for this child.

Looks like a couple of people are just using this situation as a vehicle for bashing the deaf school rather than looking at what would be best for the child. Shame, shame.

Deaf schools are always wrong wrong wrong! :roll:

If the deaf school has the resources and the program for deaf children with cognitive needs, then I would need more info to why this child wasnt accepted.

However, the if the deaf school dont have the resources nor the trained staff, then no, it wouldnt be the appropriate placement for this child.

Just like where I work at isnt appropriate for deaf children with severe behavior disorders because we dont have the resources to meet their additional needs.

If Deaf schools need to serve deaf children with additional needs then stop cutting the budgets and stripping away the needed resources and expect the school to meet their needs without the resources. What's ironic is when people complain that deaf schools arent doing enough? Cant make everyone happy.

 

[faire_jour]

Wirelessly posted

Wirelessly posted

but how will she be served in a hearing setting? She needs free communication, and that will not happen unless she is in a deaf setting. I feel like you are saying deaf schools show be for "vanilla deaf" only. They should be for any child with a hearing loss. If the child is an asl user, the LRE will be with other asl users. The deaf school MUST provide accomodations for this child's special needs, just like a hearing school would for a hearing child with ds.

Well now you are just being silly.

No, they do not have to initiate a program just for this child. It is not up to the deaf school to either begin services or find appropriate placement. It is up to the home school to do so.

So, deaf schools should be for any child with a hearing loss, no matter that their cognitive needs go unmet. Yeah, there's a good plan for assisting a student in optimal functioning.:roll:

because she is deaf and an asl user the lre IS the deaf school. The must provide the services. The lre is no longer the home school. EVERY deaf student has the right to free communication and the law states that must be the consideration at each deaf iep, regardless of cognitive ability.

 

[jillio]

Just the ones that don't have cognitive issues?


They do it in mainstream. But anyway, I don't know this school and we don't know this student. Rejecting her on grounds of DS only sounds harsh.



Tell it to the masses. Her other option is MOST LIKELY a school that can't meet her language needs.


Didn't. But they probably should.


Agreed.



If people are so adamant about Deaf schools, why reach only the typical deaf?


We don't know what her abilities are!



Now it looks like you are making assumptions about the girl.

From what Shel has said, all kinds of deaf kids come in to the school...and they're not all socially apt, ASL fluent, or on par with academics.

I don't know about this certain school. I'm just saying, damn. Feel sorry for that kiddo.

You are the one that is making assumptions in your claim that a deaf school would be the best placement for this child.

And the rest of your post is just silly. If she were hearing, a mainstream classroom with age based peers performing over her developmental level would not be the best placement, either. That isn't to say that public ed is just for kids without cognitive disabilities. That is to say there is a need for special ed services to address the needs for kids with cognitive disabilities.

Feeling sorry rarely results in a good decision being made regarding placement. I'm sure the school that had to deny placement felt sorry for her too.

 

[jillio]

Wirelessly posted



because she is deaf and an asl user the lre IS the deaf school. The must provide the services. The lre is no longer the home school. EVERY deaf student has the right to free communication and the law states that must be the consideration at each deaf iep, regardless of cognitive ability.

As usual, you are sooooo wrong.

 

[jillio]

Yes there are but in that area? I dont know.

But if there aren't, it would be the home school's responsibility to accommodate to that level, not the deaf school's. The deaf school placement would only be a contract with the home school, not the child's home school. The school that is required to make accommodation or find, and pay for, appropriate placement is the public school district in which the child lives.

 

[jillio]

We are not saying the school is automatically appropriate.

We're wondering why it's automatically inappropriate. That's all. No deaf school bashing. Easy, jillz.

Because you are only considering that this child is deaf. You are not considering that she has DS, functional levels, nor linguistic levels that all go into decisions regarding placement. You are coming at this from an emotional perspective, and your feelings are getting in the way of logic.

 

[Reba]

It would be beneficial if we could get input from a parent of a deaf child with DS who has been thru the educational experience, from pre-school years up to adulthood.

As I posted earlier, we are also making determinations based on the skimpiest of information about the people and school involved.

 

[deafdyke]

es, of course there are. As a matter of fact, most DS programs now include sign in their curriculum and language of instruction simply because the research has shown the benefit to DS children, including the hearing DS children.

Yes. Did you know for example that in the early 80's there was a very high enrollment of mentally affected kids at Deaf Schools? So Deaf Schools are experianced with mentally handicapped kids. However mentally handicapped can run the gamut from mild to moderate to severe (and profound, but profound kids tend to be served in nursing home residental schools so you wouldn't see them at Deaf Schools)
faire joure, you're assuming that MH= mild with fluent ASL abilty. But it's also possible that the student is more severely affected and uses Sign in an AAC (ie she has some sign, but uses more alternative and augmentive communication methods) fashion rather then as a LANGUAGE!