School for the Deaf denies deaf child with Down Syndrome placement

[TheOracle]

Because you are only considering that this child is deaf. You are not considering that she has DS, functional levels, nor linguistic levels that all go into decisions regarding placement. You are coming at this from an emotional perspective, and your feelings are getting in the way of logic.

I'm the least emotional in this thread and I've been lambasted for it. But this thread has been filled with lots of emotions from deaf people who had a hard time in school and how hearing people don't get it and how come no one stuck up for them? and so forth.

I was just saying, quite reasonably, that a cognitive disability shouldn't be an automatic disqualifier. Now if you mean to tell me that deaf schools are for typical deaf children only, all right.

I have made no assumptions about this kid. All we know is that she has DS. I have worked with DS kids and some are more functioning than others. Tis all. Wish we knew more.

Information is a good thing.

 

[TheOracle]

Yes it is but would you place a deaf-blind child in a classroom full of deaf children with vision without any support or resources?

Apples to peanuts. That's a poor argument...do you just wish all of your students were typical deaf and had no other issues? Do any of your students have LD?

 

[dogmom]

For me there's not enough info. from my perspective to discuss the "why" and "why not's" regarding this particular child.

I have worked with kids and adults with cognitive disabilities including Down and also severe LD/emotional disabilities, severe-profound autism.....LD and cognitive disabilities are not the same thing. They CAN be similar when dealing with the most severe range of LD but still not the same for educational purposes.
I've also worked with kids who are d/Deaf and also thrown into a group-"exceptional" program for kids who are deaf with disabilities and I honestly don't think such a program does justice for either.

 

[jillio]

I'm the least emotional in this thread and I've been lambasted for it. But this thread has been filled with lots of emotions from deaf people who had a hard time in school and how hearing people don't get it and how come no one stuck up for them? and so forth.

I was just saying, quite reasonably, that a cognitive disability shouldn't be an automatic disqualifier. Now if you mean to tell me that deaf schools are for typical deaf children only, all right.

I have made no assumptions about this kid. All we know is that she has DS. I have worked with DS kids and some are more functioning than others. Tis all. Wish we knew more.

Information is a good thing.

See, you simply don't get it. Cognitive disability isn't an automatic disqualifier. Lack of a program to address the needs created by that cognitive disability is the qualifier.

The very fact that you stated your opinions were based on the fact that you "felt bad" for this student shows that your emotions are clouding logic. I feel bad for this student, as well. That doesn't mean I am ready and willing to make placement based on that.

 

[jillio]

Apples to peanuts. That's a poor argument...do you just wish all of your students were typical deaf and had no other issues? Do any of your students have LD?

No, that is a valid point. Obviously, even though you claim to be an educator, your knowledge and experience regarding deaf ed is extremely limited. It's okay. We see that all the time out of mainstream teachers.

 

[AlleyCat]

No, that is a valid point. Obviously, even though you claim to be an educator, your knowledge and experience regarding deaf ed is extremely limited. It's okay. We see that all the time out of mainstream teachers.

I agree. I thought Shel had a perfectly valid point and question. And it was not answered except in the form of throwing more questions at Shel.

 

[Oceanbreeze]

It's no surprise that schools for the deaf are closing. The fact is, that in many cases if you don't fit into the category in a specific way, students can't attend. This is where the problem lives. If the schools would find ways to accommodate those whose needs are a bit different, but still DHH they would be better off. The students would be better off.

I would never want a child placed in a program that isn't appropriate for them. The fact
is that this child is deaf first. No individual can benefit from therapy, services, or
placement if they are not accessing the information first. This particular student was in a DHH placement and did well. Just because she has Down Syndrome doesn't mean she isn't entitled to an education which is fully accessible to her. Throwing students into a class because there is "nowhere else to put them" with students with other unrelated issues serves no one well but the district.

When a child has more than one issue going on, everything must be addressed. If this child is deaf AND has Downs Syndrome then it WAS appropriate to turn down the placement at the Deaf school. It is likely that he/she will be placed in a situation where ALL her/his needs will be addressed. Like Jillio said, many times sign language is "built in" to these programs for the multi-disabled child.

 

[Oceanbreeze]

Yeppers. Most do these days. Some simply don't. And the ones that don't are not equipped to handle the needs of students with special needs. They are equipped to handle the needs of deaf students without special needs.

And, you are correct as usual.

 

[Oceanbreeze]

I don't disagree with most of what you're saying. I do disagree with what you're saying though about it not being that she's deaf first. Most other "disabilities" don't have a communication barrier at the source of the issue- deafness does. That communication barrier needs to be adressed first and foremost before the child can benefit from any placement.

What you a failing to understand is that these programs are equipped to deal with the deaf, multi-disabled child.

 

[shel90]

Apples to peanuts. That's a poor argument...do you just wish all of your students were typical deaf and had no other issues? Do any of your students have LD?

The point of my question is "Without support or resources?"

You missed my point.

But you never answered my question so can you answer it pls?

 

[GrendelQ]

I don't have a horse in this race , I don't know much about academic needs specific to DS kids, and most important, I have no idea where this child falls in the range of disability possible with DS. But a former TA I had long ago now heads up the arts & humanities program at Penn State where he teaches cultural studies and is a major voice in the Disability Studies world, we've corresponded a tiny bit, and I've avidly consumed everything he's written, whether published book or scrap notes posted on his blog about disabilities (and politics) starting many years before I encountered Li-Li. His 20 year old has DS, I believe he went through an inclusion program in a public school and successfully graduated high school having taken languages, traveled extensively, and so much more.

Now, I don't know if an inclusion program tailored to both DS and Deaf ed needs is more likely to be found in a public school than in a deaf school or vice versa, I'm hoping to see some answers here , although people keep talking about what's better for the school and the teachers, and no one has really said why a deaf school would be better for the child or why a public school would be better for the child.

But I wanted to share something. If you have a little time, a transcript of a talk this amazing person gave is linked here in which he discusses his son, and his own evolving perception of intellectual disabilities and potential. When I first read it, it didn't exactly change the way I thought, but it rocked my world by validating my gut feeling that perceived limitations shouldn't factor into my thinking about my daughter, that I needed to open up all avenues let her guide me. Sort of a 'don't try to bend the spoon -- know there is no spoon' discovery.

I think the long story he tells is far more powerful and humorous and eye-opening, but the following conclusion is a bit easier to quote.

... It might be a good idea for all of us to treat other humans as if we do not know their potential, as if they just might in fact
surprise us, as if they might defeat or exceed our expectations. It might be a good idea for us to check the history of the past few centuries whenever we think we know what "normal" human standards of behavior and achievement might be. It might be an even better idea to look at the recent history of early intervention and full inclusion, to see how our expectations for people with cognitive disabilities, and our social practices with regard to people with cognitive disabilities, have affected the lives of people with cognitive disabilities. As Jamie reminds me daily, both deliberately and unwittingly, most Americans had no idea what people with Down syndrome could achieve until we'd passed and implemented and interpreted and reinterpreted a law entitling them all to a free appropriate public education in the least restrictive environment. And most broadly, it might be a good idea to expand the possibilities of democracy precisely because democracy offers us unfinished and infinitely revisable forms of political organization that stand the best chance, in the long run, of responding adequately to the human rights of the unpredictable creatures we humans are. That might be one way of recognizing and respecting something you might want to call our human dignity.

And so, Jamie, I admit it. Even when I was trying to represent you to the best of my ability when I wrote Life As We Know it, I underestimated you. I was wrong, and I apologize. And through thick and thin, I will always be your friend.

And if you like this, he also has a fascinating correspondence rebutting the 'medical establishment's view' in which he says such stuff as

You’re looking for things people with Down syndrome can’t do, and I’m looking for things they can. We each have our reasons, of course.

 

[jillio]

I agree. I thought Shel had a perfectly valid point and question. And it was not answered except in the form of throwing more questions at Shel.

Diversion.

 

[jillio]

I don't have a horse in this race , I don't know much about academic needs specific to DS kids, and most important, I have no idea where this child falls in the range of disability possible with DS. But a former TA I had long ago now heads up the arts & humanities program at Penn State where he teaches cultural studies and is a major voice in the Disability Studies world, we've corresponded a tiny bit, and I've avidly consumed everything he's written, whether published book or scrap notes posted on his blog about disabilities (and politics) starting many years before I encountered Li-Li. His 20 year old has DS, I believe he went through an inclusion program in a public school and successfully graduated high school having taken languages, traveled extensively, and so much more.

Now, I don't know if an inclusion program tailored to both DS and Deaf ed needs is more likely to be found in a public school than in a deaf school or vice versa, I'm hoping to see some answers here , although people keep talking about what's better for the school and the teachers, and no one has really said why a deaf school would be better for the child or why a public school would be better for the child.

But I wanted to share something. If you have a little time, a transcript of a talk this amazing person gave is linked here in which he discusses his son, and his own evolving perception of intellectual disabilities and potential. When I first read it, it didn't exactly change the way I thought, but it rocked my world by validating my gut feeling that perceived limitations shouldn't factor into my thinking about my daughter, that I needed to open up all avenues let her guide me. Sort of a 'don't try to bend the spoon -- know there is no spoon' discovery.

I think the long story he tells is far more powerful and humorous and eye-opening, but the following conclusion is a bit easier to quote.



And if you like this, he also has a fascinating correspondence rebutting the 'medical establishment's view' in which he says such stuff as

I like what he had to say. And I agree. We should never assume regarding potential. It is one of those things that is so dependant on everchanging variables.

However, in the issue of placement, potential is not the issue. Current level of functioning is the issue.

DS has a wide range of functional levels associated. That is why, early on, I stated that we did not have sufficient information, but the school no doubt did prior to denying placement.

Thanks for the links.

 

[deafdyke]

Current level of functioning is the issue.

DS has a wide range of functional levels associated. That is why, early on, I stated that we did not have sufficient information, but the school no doubt did prior to denying placement

. Yes, even a moderate MR kid would be served decently at a Deaf School. But when you're talking about more severe MR, they would prolly need an augmentive and alternative communciation approach. I've GOT it.........it would be like putting an oral deaf first grader (who still has signficent spoken language delays) into a high school foriegn language class.

 

[GrendelQ]

I like what he had to say. And I agree. We should never assume regarding potential. It is one of those things that is so dependant on everchanging variables.

However, in the issue of placement, potential is not the issue. Current level of functioning is the issue.

DS has a wide range of functional levels associated. That is why, early on, I stated that we did not have sufficient information, but the school no doubt did prior to denying placement.

Thanks for the links.

Jillio, he touches a bit more on functional level and misperceptions in popular culture (and even taps into the CI debate with some comparisons with X-Men -- the "cure" -- and Gattaca, where children are screened and 'adjusted' in vitro, and one of my favorites of all time, Bladerunner) in a TED talk: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7VEMQEsy4s"] Humans, Superheroes, Mutants, and People with Disabilities[/ame] (with YouTube caption options) he gave last year. (On a side note, I get the sense you'll like his politics as much as I do )

 

[shel90]

Grendal,

I do agree with you about seeing what the students can do rather what they cant do. However, for example, if this child is like 13 years old but is functioning on kindergarden level as far as language and academics go, it would be very very hard for a teacher to be able to meet this child's needs while trying to meet other 13 year old's who are on 7th grade academic level if there is no additional resources nor support. I know that the administrators do fight to get resources or the support needed to meet all the needs of deaf children with cognitive needs but we all know how politics can be. They could be seeing what you and others are seeing..."the child is deaf, this is a deaf school, DENY the additional funds for the support."

I have a math class of 7 students with 3 different grade levels. I am so scretched thin trying to teach 3 different grade levels for math. If I didnt have my aide to help out, there would be no way I could meet all of the students' needs. And all of these students do not have mental retardation.

 

[jillio]

Jillio, he touches a bit more on functional level and misperceptions in popular culture (and even taps into the CI debate with some comparisons with X-Men -- the "cure" -- and Gattaca, where children are screened and 'adjusted' in vitro, and one of my favorites of all time, Bladerunner) in a TED talk: Humans, Superheroes, Mutants, and People with Disabilities (with YouTube caption options) he gave last year. (On a side note, I get the sense you'll like his politics as much as I do )

Love it! And you are right...his politics make me want to say "Now that's what I'm talking about!"

 

[TheOracle]

See, you simply don't get it. Cognitive disability isn't an automatic disqualifier. Lack of a program to address the needs created by that cognitive disability is the qualifier.

The very fact that you stated your opinions were based on the fact that you "felt bad" for this student shows that your emotions are clouding logic. I feel bad for this student, as well. That doesn't mean I am ready and willing to make placement based on that.

I don't see where my logic is flawed. I have said - what - three times now? We don't have enough info.

Of course I feel bad for the student. It's unlikely she'll get the support she needs. Or rather, it's not in her odds.

Please show where my logic is 'flawed'.

 

[TheOracle]

Grendal,

I do agree with you about seeing what the students can do rather what they cant do. However, for example, if this child is like 13 years old but is functioning on kindergarden level as far as language and academics go, it would be very very hard for a teacher to be able to meet this child's needs while trying to meet other 13 year old's who are on 7th grade academic level if there is no additional resources nor support. I know that the administrators do fight to get resources or the support needed to meet all the needs of deaf children with cognitive needs but we all know how politics can be. They could be seeing what you and others are seeing..."the child is deaf, this is a deaf school, DENY the additional funds for the support."

I have a math class of 7 students with 3 different grade levels. I am so scretched thin trying to teach 3 different grade levels for math. If I didnt have my aide to help out, there would be no way I could meet all of the students' needs. And all of these students do not have mental retardation.

But a student with DS wouldn't be doing algebra.

Are mentally retarded deaf excluded from the Deaf community? haven't we seen pages and pages about socialization? community? neglect? I'm not saying this school should take the girl if they can't meet her needs, but who's fighting for her?

I'm just curious as to how it works. Each culture has their own rules for who is in and who is out, but I wonder (and I'm sure I'll be jumped on for this) if there a reaction to deaf with intellectual disabilities because deaf have been called 'dumb' for so long.

 

[TheOracle]

DS has a wide range of functional levels associated. That is why, early on, I stated that we did not have sufficient information, but the school no doubt did prior to denying placement.

It doesn't mean the school was right.

:/

We've all seen that happen.