MSNBC: Texas to let teachers bring guns to school

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Please refrain from flooding the thread with personal attacks. I'm currently responding to your switzerland post because I have to correct your fallacious post with a lousy source you came up with. :ty:

While you are at it, cite the law that requires that ALL SWISS HOUSEHOLDS MUST OWN A GUN.

That wasn't a personal attack. It was an observation.
 
But it does allow for the possibility. And this is all based on possibility. And the chances of more armed teachers than non-armed teachers under legislation such as this is greater than the possibility of any given school being involved in a shooting incident in any given year.

unfounded and baseless concern. can you cite that please if you can or anything to back it up?
 
Just curious, but what do you think it is teaching the kids to see their educators carry guns,, presumably loaded guns, into the classroom?
If the teachers are carrying concealed weapons, then the children will never see the guns. People with permits for concealed weapons are supposed to keep them hidden on their persons. Also, people with permits to carry concealed weapons don't announce when they are carrying a weapon.

As a side note--when I attended public high school decades ago, the school had girls and boys rifle teams. Students handled and trained with rifles, and no schools were shot up in the process. The presence of guns did not cause violence. In fact, there was no violence any worse than an occasional brief one-on-one fist fight outside (so I heard; I never saw a school fight).
 
While you are at it, cite the law that requires that ALL SWISS HOUSEHOLDS MUST OWN A GUN.

That wasn't a personal attack. It was an observation.

that's what I'm doing as well. :cool2: it takes time. It really sucks to use IE because my IE window is crowded with ads, spams, etc. my FF is heavily customized to make it easier for me to do any research or whatsoever. UGH! Well bear with me
 
that's what I'm doing as well. :cool2: it takes time. It really sucks to use IE because my IE window is crowded with ads, spams, etc. my FF is heavily customized to make it easier for me to do any research or whatsoever. UGH! Well bear with me

I'm waiting patiently and expectantly.
 
and I have pointed out that "teachers who wish to bring guns will have to be certified to carry a concealed handgun in Texas and get crisis training and permission from school officials."

Your fear is UNSOUND AND UNREASONABLE. Can you tell me what are the chance of school to have NEAR or 100% armed teachers & staffs? Probably half of them will fail the training and/or federal background check and another half of certified CCW will fail to get approval from school officials.
Aack! I hope that half the teachers don't fail the background check! :shock: If they do, that school has a major problem!

I doubt that many teachers would want to spend the hundreds of dollars required for guns, ammo, and training. Buying a gun and maintaining proficiency isn't cheap.
 
Being aware of it does not constitute a risk that needs to be addressed through the issue of concealed carry permits on school property.
I didn't say that it did. But it's just as dangerous to have a false sense of security by believing that schools are secure from outside attack. They are not. I'm not saying such an attack is likely to happen. I'm saying that if an attack were to happen, the schools are not as secure as parents believe they are.
 
I didn't say that it did. But it's just as dangerous to have a false sense of security by believing that schools are secure from outside attack. They are not. I'm not saying such an attack is likely to happen. I'm saying that if an attack were to happen, the schools are not as secure as parents believe they are.

Awareness is not a false sense of security. And homes are not as secure as people believe them to be. It is the nature of the human to believe, "It won't happen here." Which is exactly why the perpetrator in these incidents have the element of surprise. A disbeleiving teacher is slower to react, whether they are armed or not.
 
unfounded and baseless concern. can you cite that please if you can or anything to back it up?

Where is the citation of the Swiss law, jiro? I thought you were searching for it. Avoiding again?
 
Where is the citation of the Swiss law, jiro? I thought you were searching for it. Avoiding again?

I'm nearly done! I thought you said you're waiting patiently. :cool2: I don't always sit behind computer. I have to go pet my sleepy dog, grab some snacks, talk to a few friends who just IM'ed me about party yesterday, and watched a couple of olympic replays. But I'm nearly done... I think in a couple minutes. :cool2:
 
Awareness is not a false sense of security. And homes are not as secure as people believe them to be. It is the nature of the human to believe, "It won't happen here." Which is exactly why the perpetrator in these incidents have the element of surprise. A disbeleiving teacher is slower to react, whether they are armed or not.
The point is, parents are NOT aware that their children's schools are not secure. How they want to deal with it is up to them. But first they must be aware that the schools are not secure.
 
Where is the citation of the Swiss law, jiro? I thought you were searching for it. Avoiding again?

Jillio, will some one please address the issue of the example we are setting with the children by carrying guns into their classrooms, especially at young ages...

You are the best person I know to adress the psychology of that. Since kids learn from example,, what are we saying to our future generation?
 
Do you just make stuff up as you go along?

The Swiss household gun-ownership rate is 27 percent excluding militia weapons. Contrast this with the household gun-ownership rates (at least for households willing to divulge gun ownership to a government-affiliated telephone pollster) of 16 percent for Italians, 23 percent for French, and 9 percent for Germans.

Swiss Mess

Better check under than dunce cap again. Sure looks like you!

we all know that Switzerland is famous for being one of the highest gun ownership rates in the world and also one of the lowest firearm related crime rates in the world.

Switzerland and the gun
Guns are deeply rooted within Swiss culture - but the gun crime rate is so low that statistics are not even kept.

The country has a population of six million, but there are estimated to be at least two million publicly-owned firearms, including about 600,000 automatic rifles and 500,000 pistols.
...........
Despite the lack of rigid gun laws, firearms are strictly connected to a sense of collective responsibility.

THANK YOU FOR THE LINK! You just gave me an ammunition. In fact - you just gave me a mortar round! :laugh2: From same author from the source you cited -
David Kopel - "What America can learn from Switzerland is that the best way to reduce gun misuse is to promote responsible gun ownership."
In the right to bear arms debate, pro-gun Americans point to Switzerland, where almost every adult male is legally required to possess a gun. One of the few nations with a higher per capita rate of gun ownership than the United States, Switzerland has virtually no gun crime. Therefore, argue the pro-gunners, America doesn't need gun control.
......
Today, military service for Swiss males is universal. At about age 20, every Swiss male goes through 118 consecutive days of recruit training in the Rekrutenschule. This training may be a young man's first encounter with his countrymen who speak different languages. (Switzerland has four official languages: German, French, Italian and Romansch.)
.......
Even before required training begins, young men and women may take optional courses with the Swiss army's M57 assault rifle. They keep that gun at home for three months and receive six half-day training sessions.
.......
By the Federal Constitution of 1874, military servicemen are given their first equipment, clothing and arms. After the first training period, conscripts must keep gun, ammunition and equipment an ihrem Wohnort ("in their homes") until the end of their term of service.

Today, enlisted men are issued M57 automatic assault rifles and officers are given pistol, Each reservist is issued 24 rounds of ammunition in sealed packs for emergency use. (Contrary to Handgun Control's claim that "all ammunition must be accounted for," the emergency ammunition is the only ammo that requires accounting.)

After discharge from service, the man is given a bolt rifle free from registration or obligation. Starting in the 1994, the government will give ex-reservists assault rifles. Officers carry pistols rather than rifles and are given their pistols the end of their service.

When the government adopts a new infantry rifle, it sells the old ones to the public.
.......
Reservists are encouraged to buy military ammunition (7.5 and 5.6mm-5.56 mm in other countries-for rifles and 9 and 7.65 mm Luger for pistols, which is sold at cost by the government, for target practice Non-military ammunition for long-gun hunting and .22 Long Rifle (LR) ammo are not subsidised, but are subiect to no sales controls. Non-military non-hunting ammunition more powerful than .22 LR (such as .38 Spl.) is registered at the time of sale.
.......
The army sells a variety of machine guns, submachine guns, anti-tank weapons, anti-aircraft guns, howitzers and cannons. Purchasers of these weapons require an easily obtained cantonal license, and the weapons are registered, In a nation of six million people, there are at least two million guns, including 600,00 fully automatic assault rifles, half a million pistols, and numerous machine guns. Virtually every home has a gun.
......
Sugarmann and NCBH favour gun control not to disarm criminals, but because they believe that non-criminal Americans cannot be trusted with handguns. The coalition's political affairs director, Eric Ellman, has said that "the majority of gun owners are not responsible." Yet a look at the facts shows that more than 99% of American citizens who are not professional felons are just as suited for gun ownership as any Swiss militiaman.
........
Of course the more that U.S. governments can do to make gun use in America even more responsible, the better. Switzerland shows how successful governments can be in promoting responsible gun use.

Elementary schools in America should have gun safety classes which teach children never to touch a gun unless a parent is present, and they should be taught to tell an adult if they see an unattended gun. The NRA actively promotes this idea, and the National Association of Chiefs of Police endorses it. But Handgun Control opposes this reasonable, sensible safety measure. Has HCI gone off the deep end?

High schools and colleges wishing to offer target shooting as a sport should be allowed to do so. Unlike football or swimming, scholastic target shooting has never resulted in a fatality. The anti-gun groups oppose the sensible step of allowing the schools to offer students the safest sport ever invented. Have they gone off the deep end'? Finally, local governments should enact reasonable zoning laws, which allow the construction of indoor shooting ranges (properly ventilated and sound insulated) in urban areas. In some cases, governments should subsidise the building of ranges. At target ranges, Americans can take lessons in gun responsibility, and practice safe gun handling skills. As you might expect, the anti-gunners oppose this simple safety measure too. They've gone off the deep end.
.........
What have we learned from Switzerland?' Guns in themselves are not a cause of gun crime; if they were, everyone in Switzerland would long ago have been shot in a domestic quarrel
.......
Cultural conditions, not gun laws, are the most important factors in a nation's crime rate. Young adults in Washington, D.C., are subject to strict gun control, but no social control, and they commit a staggering amount of armed crime. Young adults in Zurich are subject to minimal gun control, but strict social control, and they commit almost no crime.
.......
What America can learn from Switzerland is that the best way to reduce gun misuse is to promote responsible gun ownership. While America cannot adopt the Swiss model, America can foster responsible gun ownership along more individualistic, American lines. Firearms safety classes in elementary schools, optional marksmanship classes in high schools and colleges, and the widespread availability of adult safety training at licensed shooting ranges are some of the ways that America can make its tradition of responsible gun use even stronger.

My good friend is from Switzerland and he has 2+ firearms in his household. He barely touched it (only used it for mandatory training). My aunt is married to Switzerland guy and they too have gun in their household - hardly touched too.

You have unfounded fear of us gun owners in here like to shoot and play with guns frequently... and we're trigger-happy at anything that spooks us.
 
Jillio, will some one please address the issue of the example we are setting with the children by carrying guns into their classrooms, especially at young ages...
If the teachers have concealed weapons the children won't even know that the teachers are carrying guns, so it won't bother them. The children won't see the guns, and the teachers won't talk about the guns. The teachers won't be brandishing guns in front of the children.
 
If the teachers have concealed weapons the children won't even know that the teachers are carrying guns, so it won't bother them. The children won't see the guns, and the teachers won't talk about the guns. The teachers won't be brandishing guns in front of the children.

Thanks, :)

I am still a little curious about what it says as a society? Does the law itself say that violence is a cure to overcome the anger that a student is acting out if he takes a gun to school?

I really wish that besides protecting ourselves, that we could focus on eliminating the teasing and prejidism, and poverty, etc. that causes the anger and mental problems to begin with. It hurts me to think that our kids are so frustrated that they are becoming imbalnced emotionally at such young ages. Guns should be the last thing on their mind.
 
Thanks, :)

I am still a little curious about what it says as a society? Does the law itself say that violence is a cure to overcome the anger that a student is acting out if he takes a gun to school?

I really wish that besides protecting ourselves, that we could focus on eliminating the teasing and prejidism, and poverty, etc. that causes the anger and mental problems to begin with. It hurts me to think that our kids are so frustrated that they are becoming imbalnced emotionally at such young ages. Guns should be the last thing on their mind.
I agree that we still need to confront the root problems of our society.
 
Thanks, :)

I am still a little curious about what it says as a society? Does the law itself say that violence is a cure to overcome the anger that a student is acting out if he takes a gun to school?

I really wish that besides protecting ourselves, that we could focus on eliminating the teasing and prejidism, and poverty, etc. that causes the anger and mental problems to begin with. It hurts me to think that our kids are so frustrated that they are becoming imbalnced emotionally at such young ages. Guns should be the last thing on their mind.

I agree that we still need to confront the root problems of our society.

yes true but here's a difficult thing. Changing the society's perception, view, stigma, etc. is extraordinary difficult and it takes years and years to change. It's not that gun should be last thing in mind. It's a fact that there is danger everywhere at any time. So what do we do about the immediate danger? we should be able to protect ourselves in a life-and-death situation.

once the society has changed for better... obviously there is no need for us to carry concealed guns! hell we don't even need this many police officers either! I wouldn't be surprised to see handful of our prisons being converted to whatever. it's that simple. It's not the guns. It's the people and restrictive & bullshit laws.
 
If teachers set an exmple of bringing guns to school, is it telling the children that they should live in fear?

If someone nuts out, I doubt that a single teacher is going to stop the attack. Most of the attacks that I have heard of were well thought out before hand, and one lowly gun in the hands of a fearful teacher probably would not have diverted much, if any of the violence. I still worry that as long as we focus on protection instead of looking to cure the problems that cause the violence, it may only propogate more violence, and more fear, and that my friends, can cause kids to have mental problems.

Teachers are one of the biggest examples in a child's life. We do need to think about setting a proper example..
 
If teachers set an exmple of bringing guns to school, is it telling the children that they should live in fear?

If someone nuts out, I doubt that a single teacher is going to stop the attack. Most of the attacks that I have heard of were well thought out before hand, and one lowly gun in the hands of a fearful teacher probably would not have diverted much, if any of the violence. I still worry that as long as we focus on protection instead of looking to cure the problems that cause the violence, it may only propogate more violence, and more fear, and that my friends, can cause kids to have mental problems.

Teachers are one of the biggest examples in a child's life. We do need to think about setting a proper example..

perhaps you were raised to view gun as a dangerous fearsome gun and you may have lacked proper education about firearms. If you read from that link I provided, the gun owners should not stigmatized as a trigger-happy cowboys. We live in a gun country therefore it's logical and reasonable to PROPERLY educate youths about it. Remember back in old time where they were taught that premartial sex is bad? and that they were taught sex is taboo in sex ed? and that marijuana will make you stupid and dumb? and that gay people are the source of AIDs?

Recently - we have become more open-minded and understanding toward to many things - gay marriage, "different people" such as trannie/gothic/disabled/etc., minor drugs, and cohabitation. why not guns?

True that teachers are one of the biggest examples in a child's life. That further substantiated Kopel's suggestion that proper education about guns should be introduced. Guns are not always about fear and protection. It's a small part of it. Gun is LARGELY for recreational purpose such as marksmanship and hunting.
 
The point is, parents are NOT aware that their children's schools are not secure. How they want to deal with it is up to them. But first they must be aware that the schools are not secure.

They are often not aware that their child is the one that is displaying at risk behaviors, either.
 
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