The "Mainstreaming" Experience: "Isolated cases"?

faire_jour said:
i don't know anyone (today) who advocates for mainstreaming a deaf child who can not understand spoken language through listening. It seems counterintutive to me.
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Surprisingly in my area where there are wonderful resources and both oral and bi-bi schools of high academic standing, I know of several cases. One 2nd grader in what would have been my daughter's local school just received a CI last year, previously had no access to spoken language and now has limited access. In fact, our neighboring district is about to launch an ASL program in-house to address the needs of so many local deaf kids.
 
deafbajagal said:
Many schools WANT to provide the best interpreter but they either don't know where to go/ask/look (I mean, not many interpreter agencies are in the yellow pages) OR they have searched relentlessly but either there are no interpreters available in the area or the interpreters are not willing to work for that pay/setting, etc. It's not always the school's fault.

However, there should be reasonable standards in place. And the parents should be well-informed if the interpreter is not certified AND qualified. Also, many interpreters do not interpret during recess or at lunch because they need breaks (they also should have those breaks) but ironically, that is when the child needs access to his/her peers and to learn social language and social skills.
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If the students IEP says they are to have an interpreter the entire school
Day, then they are out of compliance with the IEP if one isn't provided during breaks and lunch. If it means they need to hire a second terp, then that's what they have to do.

Now if their IEP states they have a terp in all academic classes, well that's another story. Technically they wouldn't be required to provide a terp outside of those academic classes.

It all goes back to what the IEP says. As to the social part IDEA requires consideration of access to non academic and extra curricular services.

Section 300.107 Non academic services
(a) each public agency must take steps, including the provision of supplementary aids and services...to provide non academic and extracurricular services and activities in a manner to afford children with disabilities an equal opportunity for participation in those services and activities.

Section 300.117 nonacademic settings
...provision of nonacademic and extra curricular services and activities, including meals and recess periods...agency must endure that each child with a disability has the supplementary aids and services ... For the child to participate in non academic settings.
 
like fj said, I think it's pretty freaking counter intuitive as well. It doesn't mean that some parents go that route, though.

I'm curious - I hear a lot about social deficit - and I was wondering if you guys could explain it? Hearing kids have problems as well. It is likely that a deaf child would be at a higher risk for teasing and such, but like many have pointed out, that's how kids are. It seems like children and adults seem to 'get it' a whole lot easier than thirteen year olds.
 
TheOracle said:
like fj said, I think it's pretty freaking counter intuitive as well. It doesn't mean that some parents go that route, though.

I'm curious - I hear a lot about social deficit - and I was wondering if you guys could explain it? Hearing kids have problems as well. It is likely that a deaf child would be at a higher risk for teasing and such, but like many have pointed out, that's how kids are. It seems like children and adults seem to 'get it' a whole lot easier than thirteen year olds.
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It's not the bully thing. As I meet more oral deaf people, it's obvious that quite a few have ..... a problem with their social skills. It's interesting actually. I'm not a psychologist, but because they don't pick up everything that goes on in a group setting in school, they don't learn what is "normal" during a conversation or a group conversation.

To be honest, deaf people who grew up with ASL also "seem" to have social differences. However, my theory for that is because of the Deaf culture. Communication that heavily relies on visual cues as well as the need for information causes this social difference from hearing people.

With oral deaf people, they probably grew up unexposed to the deaf community, so their differences doesn't come from the Deaf culture, but rather from missing out the subtle social cues in their peer environment. I can give you specific examples that I have personally observed.
 
But what about deaf-hearing interactions? Oral deaf more or less likely to have this "deficit"? I'm hearing and I'd definitely be out of place in the Deaf world...at least for quite awhile.
 
Wirelessly posted

Daredevel7, what are you seeing? I've spent some significant amount of time observing my daughter among ASL deaf kids, and I've watched her interact with hearing kids, noting some marked differences that I've wondered about, whether they are cultural or response to some characteristic of deaf interaction. We've never socialized-yet- with oral deaf kids, so I don't know how that interaction differs.
 
-add as I'm not much for edits-

So who's more likely to have a social deficit with hearing - Oral or ASL?

I see how ASLers have zero social deficit within their own groups, but dd and others talk about social deficits in the mainstream.
 
Wirelessly posted

TheOracle said:
-add as I'm not much for edits-

So who's more likely to have a social deficit with hearing - Oral or ASL?

I see how ASLers have zero social deficit within their own groups, but dd and others talk about social deficits in the mainstream.
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I'd also ask what's meant by social deficit ?
 
TheOracle said:
But what about deaf-hearing interactions? Oral deaf more or less likely to have this "deficit"? I'm hearing and I'd definitely be out of place in the Deaf world...at least for quite awhile.
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That is what I was talking about. Oral deaf kids are usually surrounded by hearing people. Some of them don't really pick up the social cues in a group setting (filled with hearing people).

Deaf people who grew up with ASL may have some social differences that may seem "weird" to hearing people but NORMAL within the deaf culture. However, a few oral people can have a lack of social cues/skills which seem weird to BOTH hearing and deaf people. Does that make more sense? Like I said, this is all from personal observation. I could easily be wrong.
 
Some ASL users can have a lack of social cues as well. I'm one of them.
 
GrendelQ said:
Wirelessly posted

Daredevel7, what are you seeing? I've spent some significant amount of time observing my daughter among ASL deaf kids, and I've watched her interact with hearing kids, noting some marked differences that I've wondered about, whether they are cultural or response to some characteristic of deaf interaction. We've never socialized-yet- with oral deaf kids, so I don't know how that interaction differs.
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An example: An oral deaf person misses out a lot in a group setting of hearing people but they still want to be a part of it, so they usually say something that is kinda off topic. OR they think it's on topic because they picked up a word and go with it.

For example:
Topic is vacation:
Hearing person says: "Last year I went on a vacation to Europe. I walked SO MUCH and GEEZ, I got so TIRED!"
Deaf person missed out most of the conversation but picked up the word "tired" and says "Yea, last night I was studying so much for that test, and whew I was so tired!"

That can be a bit awkward.

See what I mean?
 
Oh. Well that's a language issue...something that's probably not improved a much as hearing ESLs over time. :/
 
Daredevel7 said:
That is what I was talking about. Oral deaf kids are usually surrounded by hearing people. Some of them don't really pick up the social cues in a group setting (filled with hearing people).

Deaf people who grew up with ASL may have some social differences that may seem "weird" to hearing people but NORMAL within the deaf culture. However, a few oral people can have a lack of social cues/skills which seem weird to BOTH hearing and deaf people. Does that make more sense? Like I said, this is all from personal observation. I could easily be wrong.
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hey ! Somehow I just now saw this :P

I get what you're saying. So what's a parent to do? is what it all boils down to. To me, it seems like Grendel's approach is the way to go. I feel like there needs to be a fluency in both the hearing and the deaf world. Obviously, some people are the exception, but there's no denying that being secluded from hearing culture can really limit your opportunities.
 
Wirelessly posted

Daredevel7 said:
faire_jour said:
Wirelessly posted



i don't know anyone (today) who advocates for mainstreaming a deaf child who can not understand spoken language through listening. It seems counterintutive to me.
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Well, it DID happen before..... it did happen to me. I know you said "today", but you also said that it seemed counter-intuitive to you, implying why would anyone do it NOT JUST today, but also in the past. But... it happened. Many, many, many times.

Not that I have a problem being mainstreamed, but, I gotta tell you, sometimes your comments (like this one) seem really really naive and/or somewhat ignorant and it makes people not want to believe you. Sorry, FJ, just sayin'!
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yeah, and two generations ago it was perfectly acceptable to beat your children, doesn't mean anyone today would advise it! Just because people have made mistakes in the past doesn't mean that competent professionals give that advice today.
 
Daredevel7 said:
An example: An oral deaf person misses out a lot in a group setting of hearing people but they still want to be a part of it, so they usually say something that is kinda off topic. OR they think it's on topic because they picked up a word and go with it.

For example:
Topic is vacation:
Hearing person says: "Last year I went on a vacation to Europe. I walked SO MUCH and GEEZ, I got so TIRED!"
Deaf person missed out most of the conversation but picked up the word "tired" and says "Yea, last night I was studying so much for that test, and whew I was so tired!"

That can be a bit awkward.

See what I mean?
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Ohhhhh that just brought back soooo many memories of myself being in that situation. Eventually, I just stopped participating in the conversations and ended up isolating myself.
 
AlleyCat said:
I've got to agree, DD. Many of us have shared horror stories while growing up mainstreamed (not all of us, but some) but things have changed. From all that I read these days, the schools have changed, the programs have changed, the methods have changed. Even FJ has said so. (Remember, "but that's not how it is today" posts...) You CAN get through school just fine without having perfect hearing as long as you have access to communication (whether that be via ASL, CART, HAs, CIs, etc.) and being in the right programs. Parents are far more educated today about choices and placement and options.
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There are still deaf kids being mainstreamed without support service. It is still happening so I am not sure what has changed. :dunno:
 
TheOracle said:
Oh. Well that's a language issue...something that's probably not improved a much as hearing ESLs over time. :/
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No, it is not a language issue. I could read and write on par with my hearing peers but I was labeled as "socially delayed" growing up. This example that Daredevel posted is a perfect one among many other examples. I ended up with serious self-esteem issues until I discovered ASL and the Deaf community at 25 years old. However, I still get anxiety when in a social setting with all non-signers. That was one of the reasons among a few others why I didnt go to my 20 year high school renunion last year. I didnt want to spend $200 for a night of faking through the conversations. Not my idea of fun. I would rather hang out at one of my deaf friend's house where ASL is used than going to the renunion.

However, I still will interact with non-signers but it has to be on an one-on-one or very small group basis. Large groups, forget it.
 
shel90 said:
There are still deaf kids being mainstreamed without support service. It is still happening so I am not sure what has changed. :dunno:
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You're right, there are still lots of problems with some programs. For instance, I hated the program my parents had me in. Had they still done that today I'd be very unhappy! What I was implying is that more parents are making better choices. That was why my sentence "You CAN get through school just fine without having perfect hearing as long as you have access to communication (whether that be via ASL, CART, HAs, CIs, etc.) and being in the right programs." And I must emphasize "being in the right programs." :)
 
I think some of the non-signers in this forum should experience being the only one in a social group who doesn't share the same language as the majority. Some of the majority group may show patience and use communication modifications to try to include the "only" but that only goes so far. Especially on a daily basis, year after year.

A little role reversal could open some eyes (and hearts).
 
shel90 said:
No, it is not a language issue. I could read and write on par with my hearing peers but I was labeled as "socially delayed" growing up. This example that Daredevel posted is a perfect one among many other examples. I ended up with serious self-esteem issues until I discovered ASL and the Deaf community at 25 years old. However, I still get anxiety when in a social setting with all non-signers. That was one of the reasons among a few others why I didnt go to my 20 year high school renunion last year. I didnt want to spend $200 for a night of faking through the conversations. Not my idea of fun. I would rather hang out at one of my deaf friend's house where ASL is used than going to the renunion.

However, I still will interact with non-signers but it has to be on an one-on-one or very small group basis. Large groups, forget it.
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No, Shel, you misunderstand what I meant. That is a language issue. You're not getting all of the information so it results in miscommunication. It's an auditory language issue. It's just that, unlike other language issues, it doesn't really get better.

So, if I'm with someone who is signing, I'll have some delayed processing at first and I'll easily mix things up. If I'm in a Spanish speaking group, I have a hard time catching a lot of the language because everything goes so quickly it's not enunciated. After awhile, it gets better and easier.

For the deaf, it usually doesn't. Or rather, it eventually hits a brick wall.
 
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