The Great Contradiction of Christianity

[The Heretic]

Here's a dilemma I've been thinking lately, and not only does it prove the incoherence of Christianity, it also demonstrates the internal contradiction within apologetics.

It has to do with God's pure and holy state that cannot abide the presence of a sinner. He is incapable of forgiving sinners without a meditator, and that is the sacrifice of JC himself, jayzum kerow, alias Jesus Christ. Jesus' sacrifice was necessary, for otherwise, even one little widdle sin would result the utter annihilation of the sinner in the presence of the Almighty.

But here's the crux of the problem, and consequently the incoherence as well as the illogic of Christianity.

If God's presence results in the destruction of the sinner, because of His inability to abide any sin whatsoever, then it makes no difference whether the sinner accepted Christ or not.

The Church teaches us, traditionally, that we have salvation because jesus was crucified on the cross, and his death satisfies God the judge. However, even if Christ's death fulfilled God's justice, there isn't a requirement of personal belief or acceptance of Jesus Christ.

God the judge demanded a price for sin, and the death of Jesus Christ paid for it. The Christian would insist that this price includes our true repentance as well, but if it is up to us to truly repent, then we are the ones who determine our salvation, not God. God cannot force us to submit to salvation, else he overrules and overrides human free will. That is one prong of the dilemma, and there's another.

Even if the believer "accepts Jesus Christ" in his heart, why doesn't the presence of God obliterate the sinner? It seems like the only remedy is the sinless nature of Jesus Christ (or the Holy Spirit) "indwells" with the believer and acts as a shield. Yet, this solution is fraught with problems: why doesn't this affect free will? If Christ's pure nature is in a person, then the person's free will is overshadowed and rendered mute. As long Christ is in a person, the person cannot sin because s/he no longer has any sinful nature or even the ability to sin. But this is impossible, for there is no christian who won't slip up and sin on occasion.

Now, if God cannot abide sin, and Christ is the only way a person can be in God's presence, how can the Christian sin at all? Furthermore, if the christian does sin, and then dies, what happens to him/her when brought before God?

The concept of God in Christianity is a judge, and must include some sort of sacrifice, but acknowledgment (repentance) is unnecessary.

If God's nature destroys sin, then Jesus Christ cannot be the bridge between God and the sinner unless his nature indwells fully with the believer. But there is no perfect, sinless Christian.

Incidentally, if God's presence blots out sin, then the idea of hell becomes absurdly immoral, for God would have to deliberately maintain the sinner alive in order to torment and punish him eternally. In addition, since there is no hope for rehabilitation in hell, the divine punishment is excessively cruel. Neither God nor the sinner benefits, for the sinner cannot repent, and God is no longer infinitely merciful.

Bottom line: if God's presence erases sin, and the sinner cannot survive in such divine presence unless Jesus Christ's sinless nature dwells in him, but this "indwelling" will obstruct free will, for the believer will not be able to sin, and this is obviously false.

 

[Heath]

Here is a simple and a very visual picture. You will understand much better.

 

[The*Empress]

Well it would be nice if God tells Jesus, he is fired... And God can start flooding this Earth, destroy Africa, USA, and other Sodom-like country...

And only survivors would be the good people.

 

[Heath]

Well it would be nice if God tells Jesus, he is fired... And God can start flooding this Earth, destroy Africa, USA, and other Sodom-like country...

And only survivors would be the good people.

Miss P .... God will never fire Jesus Christ. God made a promise to Abraham to not flood the world with water ever again and God sent the rainbow as a good sign that God will keep his promise. It is impossible for God to lie. God will destroy sodomic countries in God's good time... just wait and watch when the countries that obey God will be blessed then the countries will be cursed like we are being cursed ( jobs going overseas to China, rampart homosexuality, crime soaring up more in line with a 3rd world country , homelessness increasing etc. ) all because America refuses to listen and obey God , take out 10 commandments in the courtroom & prayers banned in school .... America is permitting devil worship and another islamic countries that have been calling America The Great Satan will soon believe the lie coming out of the islamic government when we know that is not true. It is time to pack up and stop rebelling against God. You know God has blessed us for over 200 years now !!!!

 

[RedFox]

Here is a simple and a very visual picture. You will understand much better.

We already know the beliefs that Chistians have, which is what this picture shows. The picture doesn't show people crossing the bridge, getting the shield of Christ to allow them to be before the god and therefore becoming sinless and losing free will. We know that they don't really lose free will because Christians still sin sometimes.

This reminds me of an analogy a Christian told me once. Jesus is the bridge just before a waterfall that Christians would grab and get onto before they could go over the waterfall. Those stories and pictures could help Christians understand what they want to believe, but they don't make it true.

Here's the point of this thread:

Bottom line: if God's presence erases sin, and the sinner cannot survive in such divine presence unless Jesus Christ's sinless nature dwells in him, but this "indwelling" will obstruct free will, for the believer will not be able to sin, and this is obviously false.

 

[The*Empress]

There was man who was so tired of people throwing stones, and the way muslims and hebrews were like the muslims and hebrews, terrorize each other during Biblical time, and Kings killing babies to control population, burn criminals up in fire, slaves.

Would you wanna live BC (before Christ).

No we don't.

Muslims in Africa, majority, and look at how they have slaves, starving those people, AIDS problem, mutilate women's vagina.

And look at Iraq, women got no rights and the Muslims are blowing themselves up.

If Christians go to Africa and Iraq, after this war is over, what do you think will change?

Muslims will convert to Christians, they will learn about freedom and rights, no more slaves, helping the poor, feed all the hungry children, have proper government to set up welfare, food stamp, and taxes.
Help set up schools for disableds.

That is a good thing to be a Christians,
So why stop being a Christian when you know your belief can solve world problem?

 

[pek1]

That is a good thing to be a Christians,
So why stop being a Christian when you know your belief can solve world problem?

Miss*Pinocchio,

When Christ walked the earth, even He said that there will be people against Him. This was inevitable and He knew it, but, as God (Jesus is also God, the second Head of the Trinity) gave us humans a free will and a mind of our own when He created us. God did not make you and me as robots...if He wanted that as "humans," He would have made robots instead of humans. Let me go back to the poster and explain. I will have it in quotes, but my ANSWER WILL BE IN CAPS (I AM NOT YELLING, THOUGH).

 

[pek1]

I WILL ANSWER THIS AFTER EACH PHRASE IN CAPS.

Here's a dilemma I've been thinking lately, and not only does it prove the incoherence of Christianity, it also demonstrates the internal contradiction within apologetics.

BRING IT ON!!

It has to do with God's pure and holy state that cannot abide the presence of a sinner. He is incapable of forgiving sinners without a meditator,

THAT IS CORRECT.

and that is the sacrifice of JC himself, jayzum kerow, alias Jesus Christ.

THERE IS NO OTHER NAME UNDER HEAVEN WHEREBY MEN AND WOMEN CAN BE SAVED EXCEPT IN THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST. THERE IS NO OTHER ALIAS.

Jesus' sacrifice was necessary, for otherwise, even one little widdle sin would result the utter annihilation of the sinner in the presence of the Almighty.

THIS IS INCORRECT. THE FIRST PART IS CORRECT, BUT THE "UTTER ANNIHILATION OF THE SINNER IN THE PRESENCE OF THE ALMIGHTY" IS NOT CORRECT. THE SINNER, THE ONE WHO REJECTED ON HIS OR HER OWN, IS DAMNED TO HELL FOREVER. NOTHING IN SCRIPTURE SAYS THAT THE SINNER IS ANNIHILATED. THE SINNER WILL BE IN TORMENT IN HELL, NOT ANNIHILATED, BEARING TORTURE FOR THEIR SINS.

But here's the crux of the problem, and consequently the incoherence as well as the illogic of Christianity.

If God's presence results in the destruction of the sinner, because of His inability to abide any sin whatsoever, then it makes no difference whether the sinner accepted Christ or not.

YES IT DOES. AS A CHRISTIAN, AS WELL AS A HUMAN, I SIN DAILY. I ALSO REPENT OF THOSE SINS ON A DAILY BASIS, BUT THOSE SINS WILL NEVER SEPARATE ME FROM GOD. GOD WILL NOT, ALL OF A SUDDEN, SAY, "PEK1, GO TO HELL, I HATE YOU." NO, NO, THAT IS NOT WHAT SCRIPTURE TEACHES. WHAT THE SCRIPTURE (BIBLE) TEACHES IS THAT MY SIN PENALTY IS PURCHASED BY THE SHEDDING OF BLOOD BY JESUS CHRIST ON THE CROSS AT CALVARY. I CAME TO A POINT IN MY LIFE WHERE I KNEW THAT MY SINS (WRONGS) WERE VERY BAD AND EVIL. I NEEDED SOMETHING...SOMEONE TO SAVE ME FROM THE PENALTY. JESUS WENT TO THE CROSS, FREELY AS HE CAME TO THIS WORLD AS A BABY, TO SAY TO GOD (THE FATHER, THE FIRST PART OF THE TRINITY), "FATHER, PEK1 HAS ACCEPTED ME AS HIS SAVIOUR. HE IS NOW MINE FOREVER." JESUS PAID THE PRICE I DESERVED TO PAY, BUT AT A COST THAT I COULD NOT.

The Church teaches us, traditionally, that we have salvation because jesus was crucified on the cross, and his death satisfies God the judge. However, even if Christ's death fulfilled God's justice, there isn't a requirement of personal belief or acceptance of Jesus Christ.

YES, THERE IS. BY THE WAY, THE "CHURCH" TEACHES NOTHING, BECAUSE YOU COULD GO TO CHURCH ALL YOUR LIFE, IT WOULD NOT MAKE YOU SAVED (A CHRISTIAN). THE "CHURCH" CANNOT SAVE A SINGLE PERSON, NOT EVEN IF YOU WERE BAPTIZED AS A BABY. JOHN 3:15-18, 36; 6:40, 47; 11:25-26; 20:31; ROMANS 10:9-13; 1 JOHN 5:10-13.

God the judge demanded a price for sin, and the death of Jesus Christ paid for it.

CORRECT!

The Christian would insist that this price includes our true repentance as well, but if it is up to us to truly repent, then we are the ones who determine our salvation, not God.

PARTIALLY CORRECT. UP TO THE FIRST COMMA, THIS IS TOTALLY BOGUS AND NOT ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURE. A CHRISTIAN CANNOT "JUDGE" OR INSIST ON ANYTHING. THEY ARE NOT GOD. THE SECOND PART, YES, IT IS UP TO US TO REPENT AND FREELY RECEIVE SALVATION, BUT IT IS GOD WHO DETERMINES WHO IS SAVED AND HE KNOWS WHO WILL ACCEPT AND WHO WILL REJECT THE GOSPEL. IN CREATION, AS MENTIONED BEFORE, HUMANS ARE NOT ROBOTS, AS ROBOTS DON'T HAVE A FREE WILL (MIND OF THEIR OWN). WE, AS HUMANS, DO.

God cannot force us to submit to salvation, else he overrules and overrides human free will. That is one prong of the dilemma, and there's another.

THERE IS NO PRONG TO IT, AT ALL.

Even if the believer "accepts Jesus Christ" in his heart,

ACCEPTING CHRIST INTO ONES HEART? WHERE IS THE SCRIPTURE VERSE FOR THAT? NEVER MIND WHAT HEATH SAYS, HE NEEDS TO STUDY HIS BIBLE AND POINT OUT WHAT HIS VIEWS ARE AND HE IS BLATENTLY REFUSING TO DO SO, AS WELL AS MIXING HIS OWN OPINION AND TRYING TO CONVINCE YOU AND OTHERS THAT WHAT HE SAYS, IN ITS ENTIRETY, IS SCRIPTURAL. IT IS NOT.

why doesn't the presence of God obliterate the sinner?

IT'S NOT PART OF GOD'S PLAN, ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES.

It seems like the only remedy is the sinless nature of Jesus Christ (or the Holy Spirit) "indwells" with the believer and acts as a shield.

JESUS SAID, "I AM THE WAY, THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE: NO MAN (OR WOMAN) COMES TO THE FATHER BUT BY ME" (JOHN 14:6).


Yet, this solution is fraught with problems: why doesn't this affect free will?

FIRST OF ALL, AS HUMANS, THERE IS ONLY SO MUCH THAT WE CAN UNDERSTAND, INCLUDING THE BIBLE AND THE NATURE OF GOD. EVEN I DON'T COMPREHEND HOW GOD COULD POSSIBLY LOVE ME, DESPITE THE SINS I HAVE DONE IN MY LIFE AND STILL DO. ONCE I AM UNDER THE BLOOD OF JESUS, MY SINS ARE PAID FOR IN FULL. HOWEVER, REFER TO ROMANS 6, AS WE SHOULD NOT KEEP ON SINNING SO WE COULD HAVE MORE GRACE. GOD GAVE ME GRACE WHEN I ACCEPTED HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON AS MY SAVIOUR. IN SHORT, MAY I MENTION THAT THE WORD, "GRACE," HAS FIVE WORDS THAT WOULD BE EASY TO COMPREHEND. FIRST, THE LETTER "G" STANDS FOR "GOD'S," THE "R" STANDS FOR "RICHES," THE "A" STANDS FOR "AT," THE LETTER "C" STANDS FOR "CHRIST'S," THE LETTER "E" STANDS FOR "EXPENSE." TO PUT THEM ALL TOGETHER, "GOD'S RICHES AT CHRIST'S EXPENSE." NOTHING IS SWEETER THAN THAT.

If Christ's pure nature is in a person, then the person's free will is overshadowed and rendered mute. As long Christ is in a person, the person cannot sin because s/he no longer has any sinful nature or even the ability to sin. But this is impossible, for there is no christian who won't slip up and sin on occasion.

BEING A CHRISTIAN DOESN'T MEAN THAT I OR ANY OTHER CHRISTIAN IS PERFECT. CYBERRED, ROSE IMMORTAL, HEATH, REBA AND MYSELF WOULD BE THE FIRST FIVE, YOU WOULD MEET IN PERSON, THAT WOULD TELL YOU NOT TO LOOK AT US, BUT LOOK TO GOD INSTEAD. OTHER PERSONAL OPINIONS AND BELIEFS OF OURS ARE CONSIDERED NOTHING MORE THAN CRAP WHEN WE, INDIVIDUALLY, STAND BEFORE GOD AT THE JUDGEMENT SEAT OF CHRIST.

Now, if God cannot abide sin, and Christ is the only way a person can be in God's presence, how can the Christian sin at all? Furthermore, if the christian does sin, and then dies, what happens to him/her when brought before God?

CHRISTIANS ARE STILL HUMANS; WE ALSO FALL TO VARIOUS COLDS AND SICKNESSES AND DISEASES. THAT IS THE CONDITION OF OUR BODIES AS THEY WERE CREATED AND AFTER THE FALL, IN THE GARDEN OF EDEN.


The concept of God in Christianity is a judge, and must include some sort of sacrifice, but acknowledgment (repentance) is unnecessary.

GOD ALONE IS THE JUDGE, AS WELL AS THE CREATOR OF EVERYTHING YOU SEE AROUND YOU. HE CREATED IT ALL, INCLUDING ALL OF US WITH "LESS THAN PERFECT BODIES AND MINDS." IT MAY BE HARD TO REALIZE OR COMPREHEND, BUT GOD DOES KNOW WHAT HE IS DOING AND YOU AND I WERE CREATED IN THE IMAGE HE WANTED TO CREATE US IN, INCLUDING BEING DEAF OR HARD-OF-HEARING. EVERYTHING ABOUT YOU IS ACCORDING TO GOD'S PLAN FOR YOU. HOWEVER, IT IS 100 PERCENT OUR DECISION TO ACCEPT OR REJECT CHRIST AS THE PROPITIATION FOR OUR SINS.

If God's nature destroys sin, then Jesus Christ cannot be the bridge between God and the sinner unless his nature indwells fully with the believer.

TAKE A LOOK AT THE CROSS THAT HEATH POSTED. THIS EXPLAINS IT.

But there is no perfect, sinless Christian.

NOPE, NOT ME, HEATH, ROSE IMMORTAL, REBA OR CYBERRED. <<LOOKING AROUND>> NOPE, DON'T SEE ANY OTHER CHRISTIAN THAT IS PERFECT.


Incidentally, if God's presence blots out sin, then the idea of hell becomes absurdly immoral,

NOT IMMORAL. IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR THE CHRISTIAN TO BE DAMNED TO HELL. THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE REJECTED THE GOOD NEWS OF THE GOSPEL ARE CONDEMNED AND ARE IN HELL IMMEDIATELY AT THE TIME OF THEIR DEATH. THE SCRIPTURE SAYS, IN PHILIPPIANS 2:5-11 THAT EVERY TONGUE WILL CONFESS THAT JESUS CHRIST IS LORD, AND EVERY KNEE FROM ALL OF US, WILLINGLY OR UNWILLINGLY, WILL BOW TO HIM.

for God would have to deliberately maintain the sinner alive in order to torment and punish him eternally. In addition, since there is no hope for rehabilitation in hell, the divine punishment is excessively cruel. Neither God nor the sinner benefits, for the sinner cannot repent, and God is no longer infinitely merciful.

TO BE DAMNED TO HELL, THE PERSON THAT IS THERE IS IN HELL BODILY, JUST LIKE THE CHRISTIAN WILL BE RAISED IN A NEW BODY WITHOUT ANY FLAWS. YOU WILL NOT BE TOTALLY DESTROYED IN HELL, BUT YOU WILL FEEL IT. YOU ARE CORRECT TO SAY THAT THERE IS NO REHABILITATION OR CHANGING OF ONE'S MIND IN HELL. I WILL BET EVERYTHING THAT IF THERE WAS A BOOK SALE IN HELL, NONE OF THE NEW YORK TIMES BEST SELLERS WOULD BE SELLING. IN FACT, PEOPLE WOULD BE FALLING OVER EACH OTHER TO GRAB AHOLD OF THE BIBLES THAT ARE FOR SALE. BY THEN, IT IS TOO LATE.

Bottom line: if God's presence erases sin, and the sinner cannot survive in such divine presence unless Jesus Christ's sinless nature dwells in him, but this "indwelling" will obstruct free will, for the believer will not be able to sin, and this is obviously false.

AS HUMANS, WE CANNOT EVEN BEGIN TO UNDERSTAND THE GRACE OF GOD. THIS ALL REQUIRES FAITH. FAITH IN GOD ALONE THROUGH JESUS CHRIST ALONE FOR SALVATION. AS THE SCRIPTURE SAYS, "ALL ARE WITHOUT EXCUSE." EVERY PERSON IN HELL, RIGHT NOW, WOULD TELL YOU THAT THEY'D BE IN CHURCH TOMORROW MORNING...WITH BELLS ON...TO HEAR THE GOSPEL AND ACCEPT THE FREE GIFT OF CHRIST. BUT, IT IS TOO LATE FOR THEM, BUT NOT FOR YOU. FOR FURTHER INFORMATION, FIND A BOOKSTORE, EVEN BARNES AND NOBLE OR B.DALTON, THEY SELL BIBLES. GO TO THE FOURTH BOOK OF THE NEW TESTAMENT NAMED "JOHN" AND START READING. KEEP READING UNTIL YOU CAN UNDERSTAND IT. IF YOU ARE HAVING DIFFICULTY, FEEL FREE TO PM ME.

I WOULD ALSO RECOMMEND YOU TO PICK UP THE FOLLOWING BOOKS, "THE CASE FOR CHRIST" BY LES STROBEL AND "LETTERS FROM A SKEPTIC" BY GREG BOYD.

 

[The Heretic]

Here is a simple and a very visual picture. You will understand much better.

Here is a simple and a very direct sentence.

Sunday school sermons are meant for 6 year old children.

Now, do you want to try and read my post? You will understand it much better if you actually read it.

 

[dkf747]

I read it, and I'm still waiting for the contradiction.

 

[RedFox]

I read it, and I'm still waiting for the contradiction.

Bottom line: if God's presence erases sin, and the sinner cannot survive in such divine presence unless Jesus Christ's sinless nature dwells in him, but this "indwelling" will obstruct free will, for the believer will not be able to sin, and this is obviously false.

Here's the contradiction. If someone had Jesus in them, that would forgive them so they can go to heaven. Jesus being in them would cause them not be able to sin because Jesus has a sinless nature. Then why do Christians continue to sin? Does that mean Jesus being in Christians is not enough to stop them from sinning? How come someone with Jesus, only sinless one ever to walk the planet, inside them could ever sin?

 

[The Heretic]

I refute it thus! *kicks apologist*

I WILL ANSWER THIS AFTER EACH PHRASE IN CAPS.

Despite your intentions, typing in all caps is shouting. And we all know shouting your arguments doesn’t make them stronger. You can always use bbc code (italics or bold) to differentiate your text from the quoted excerpts of the other posters.

Now, on to your apologetics, which contains, sadly, more preaching than reasoning. I know it’s difficult, but try and talk to me, rather than preach at me.

THAT IS CORRECT.

I find your chopping of my sentences to be irritating and a sneaky tactic in debates, because you are quoting me out of context. Don’t do it again, please.

THIS IS INCORRECT. THE FIRST PART IS CORRECT, BUT THE "UTTER ANNIHILATION OF THE SINNER IN THE PRESENCE OF THE ALMIGHTY" IS NOT CORRECT. THE SINNER, THE ONE WHO REJECTED ON HIS OR HER OWN, IS DAMNED TO HELL FOREVER. NOTHING IN SCRIPTURE SAYS THAT THE SINNER IS ANNIHILATED. THE SINNER WILL BE IN TORMENT IN HELL, NOT ANNIHILATED, BEARING TORTURE FOR THEIR SINS.

Actually, you’re incorrect, for everyone is a sinner. Following your logic, then does that mean everyone is destined for hell, even up to and including the Christians themselves? I know you didn’t, so you misspoke hastily.

Traditional Christianity holds that sin is the separation of humans from God, and biblical scripture stipulates that the penalty of sin is death (Romans 6:23). The only reconciliation is the incarnation, the death and the resurrection of Jesus Christ. There are several models of atonement proposed by Christian theology.

One of them, penal substitution, contends that humans incur a moral debt by sinning, and this debt requires payment. The payment is the separation and the death of the sinner, because the moral debt is enormous, nearly infinite. God chose to send his incarnate Son, free of the blemish of original sin, in order to die and pay for the debt. Only an infinitely perfect being can erase this debt.

YES IT DOES. AS A CHRISTIAN, AS WELL AS A HUMAN, I SIN DAILY. I ALSO REPENT OF THOSE SINS ON A DAILY BASIS, BUT THOSE SINS WILL NEVER SEPARATE ME FROM GOD. GOD WILL NOT, ALL OF A SUDDEN, SAY, "PEK1, GO TO HELL, I HATE YOU." NO, NO, THAT IS NOT WHAT SCRIPTURE TEACHES. WHAT THE SCRIPTURE (BIBLE) TEACHES IS THAT MY SIN PENALTY IS PURCHASED BY THE SHEDDING OF BLOOD BY JESUS CHRIST ON THE CROSS AT CALVARY. I CAME TO A POINT IN MY LIFE WHERE I KNEW THAT MY SINS (WRONGS) WERE VERY BAD AND EVIL. I NEEDED SOMETHING...SOMEONE TO SAVE ME FROM THE PENALTY. JESUS WENT TO THE CROSS, FREELY AS HE CAME TO THIS WORLD AS A BABY, TO SAY TO GOD (THE FATHER, THE FIRST PART OF THE TRINITY), "FATHER, PEK1 HAS ACCEPTED ME AS HIS SAVIOUR. HE IS NOW MINE FOREVER." JESUS PAID THE PRICE I DESERVED TO PAY, BUT AT A COST THAT I COULD NOT.

Incorrect. If the price of sin has been paid, then our acceptance or refusal is irrelevant, and immaterial. Justice does not depend on anything other than the payment in itself. If someone pays for my parking ticket, then the judge couldn’t care less whether I accept this action or not. The standard of justice has already been met by the blood debt. If Jesus paid off the price of sin, demanded by God, then what else is needed? If you think acceptance and repentance is required, then you are insisting that there are elements every sinner has control, which makes the idea of a sinless sacrifice rather superfluous and redundant. Why or why not?

YES, THERE IS. BY THE WAY, THE "CHURCH" TEACHES NOTHING, BECAUSE YOU COULD GO TO CHURCH ALL YOUR LIFE, IT WOULD NOT MAKE YOU SAVED (A CHRISTIAN). THE "CHURCH" CANNOT SAVE A SINGLE PERSON, NOT EVEN IF YOU WERE BAPTIZED AS A BABY. JOHN 3:15-18, 36; 6:40, 47; 11:25-26; 20:31; ROMANS 10:9-13; 1 JOHN 5:10-13.

You misunderstood. The Church is where we learn about the tradition of Christianity. And I notice how you equivocated – I didn’t say “saved.” I said “teach.” Two different words. Read slower and post carefully, please.

PARTIALLY CORRECT. UP TO THE FIRST COMMA, THIS IS TOTALLY BOGUS AND NOT ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURE. A CHRISTIAN CANNOT "JUDGE" OR INSIST ON ANYTHING. THEY ARE NOT GOD. THE SECOND PART, YES, IT IS UP TO US TO REPENT AND FREELY RECEIVE SALVATION, BUT IT IS GOD WHO DETERMINES WHO IS SAVED AND HE KNOWS WHO WILL ACCEPT AND WHO WILL REJECT THE GOSPEL. IN CREATION, AS MENTIONED BEFORE, HUMANS ARE NOT ROBOTS, AS ROBOTS DON'T HAVE A FREE WILL (MIND OF THEIR OWN). WE, AS HUMANS, DO.

I didn't say "judge," for i wrote: ...if it is up to us to truly repent, then we are the ones who determine our salvation, not God. That is what you are saying because you don't think jesus's death paid for our sins, and that we also have to repent and accept, two additional conditions for salvation.

THERE IS NO PRONG TO IT, AT ALL.

I love how you insist such, as if you can handwave these problems away.

Heretic: Even if the believer "accepts Jesus Christ" in his heart,

ACCEPTING CHRIST INTO ONES HEART? WHERE IS THE SCRIPTURE VERSE FOR THAT? NEVER MIND WHAT HEATH SAYS, HE NEEDS TO STUDY HIS BIBLE AND POINT OUT WHAT HIS VIEWS ARE AND HE IS BLATENTLY REFUSING TO DO SO, AS WELL AS MIXING HIS OWN OPINION AND TRYING TO CONVINCE YOU AND OTHERS THAT WHAT HE SAYS, IN ITS ENTIRETY, IS SCRIPTURAL. IT IS NOT.

…why doesn't the presence of God obliterate the sinner?

IT'S NOT PART OF GOD'S PLAN, ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES.

There you go again with the chopping of my sentences.

If a sinner cannot stand before God, because of his divine nature that obliterates sin (penalty of sin is death), then what kind of protection does Jesus Christ have against the corrosive nature of God? The only solution I see is if christ’s perfect and sinless nature is transferred into the believer. This is never the case because all Christians are still sinners, and even the most famous ones lead sinful lives.

FIRST OF ALL, AS HUMANS, THERE IS ONLY SO MUCH THAT WE CAN UNDERSTAND, INCLUDING THE BIBLE AND THE NATURE OF GOD. EVEN I DON'T COMPREHEND HOW GOD COULD POSSIBLY LOVE ME, ….snipped…

This is the argument from ignorance. If I don’t know, you don’t either, then you can’t argue from both sides of your mouth that you at the same time, understand some things and we all are are best left by swallowing the scripture, hook, line and sinker.

BEING A CHRISTIAN DOESN'T MEAN THAT I OR ANY OTHER CHRISTIAN IS PERFECT. CYBERRED, ROSE IMMORTAL, HEATH, REBA AND MYSELF WOULD BE THE FIRST FIVE, YOU WOULD MEET IN PERSON, THAT WOULD TELL YOU NOT TO LOOK AT US, BUT LOOK TO GOD INSTEAD. OTHER PERSONAL OPINIONS AND BELIEFS OF OURS ARE CONSIDERED NOTHING MORE THAN CRAP WHEN WE, INDIVIDUALLY, STAND BEFORE GOD AT THE JUDGEMENT SEAT OF CHRIST.

Talk about “talking past one another.” If the only way a sinner can be spared before God’s nature is to have Christ’s perfect nature replace his own, then Christ’s nature, which is essentially acceptable to God in every way, overrides the free will of the believer. How can this be? If this was the case, then no Christian could sin, even if he or she wanted to, and the desire, and including the ability, to sin, is the epitome of genuine moral free will – given the story of the Garden of Eden. This brings up a fresh can of worms – could Christ sin if he wanted to? If so, then he wasn’t perfect. If not, then he had no free will. Christ did not have any free will because his will was God’s will, and God, given his perfection, cannot sin. Therefore, to gain Christ’s sinless nature, because that is the only thing to protect the believer from God’s holiness, is to no longer have free will to choose sin either.

Heretic: Now, if God cannot abide sin, and Christ is the only way a person can be in God's presence, how can the Christian sin at all? Furthermore, if the christian does sin, and then dies, what happens to him/her when brought before God?

CHRISTIANS ARE STILL HUMANS; WE ALSO FALL TO VARIOUS COLDS AND SICKNESSES AND DISEASES. THAT IS THE CONDITION OF OUR BODIES AS THEY WERE CREATED AND AFTER THE FALL, IN THE GARDEN OF EDEN.

I know Apologetics 100, so there’s no need to repeat it. This is a gross non-sequitur, because you didn’t answer my question at all. Try again, please, and don’t preach as if I am new to Christianity.

TAKE A LOOK AT THE CROSS THAT HEATH POSTED. THIS EXPLAINS IT.

No it doesn’t. It only provides the premise of the contradiction.

….TO BE DAMNED TO HELL, THE PERSON THAT IS THERE IS IN HELL BODILY, JUST LIKE THE CHRISTIAN WILL BE RAISED IN A NEW BODY WITHOUT ANY FLAWS. YOU WILL NOT BE TOTALLY DESTROYED IN HELL, BUT YOU WILL FEEL IT. YOU ARE CORRECT TO SAY THAT THERE IS NO REHABILITATION OR CHANGING OF ONE'S MIND IN HELL. I WILL BET EVERYTHING THAT IF THERE WAS A BOOK SALE IN HELL, NONE OF THE NEW YORK TIMES BEST SELLERS WOULD BE SELLING. IN FACT, PEOPLE WOULD BE FALLING OVER EACH OTHER TO GRAB AHOLD OF THE BIBLES THAT ARE FOR SALE. BY THEN, IT IS TOO LATE.

Thank you for agreeing with me that God is no infinitely merciful.

Now please read carefully:

A person cannot accept Christ after death, and that means when the Christian is brought before God, the sinful nature no longer exist, because the whole point is to survive God’s nature after death, and the acceptance of Christ is the only thing that can ensure this.

If Christian doctrine is correct, that the Christian is purified after death (purgatory or sanctification). But this means the sinful nature is destroyed. Now, the Christian does not believe he will be destroyed at death because Christ has paid for his sin. But the contradiction isn’t about payment, for it is about God’s perfect nature, which annihilates sin, no matter what. The sins of the Christian may be forgivien in a moral sense, but its experiential nature remains.

If Christ makes the Christian capable of standing in God’s presence after death, then this means He makes the Christian sinless. But what has changed from before death to after death? Why cannot Christ save the Christian from the experiential consequences of his sinful nature now? Because the price of sin is death. Well, if Christ is incapable of sparing the Christian from the experiential consequences of his sinful nature, how will that be the case after death, when the Christian is in god’s presence? The instant the sinner comes into contact with God – he’s history.

AS HUMANS, WE CANNOT EVEN BEGIN TO UNDERSTAND THE GRACE OF GOD. THIS ALL REQUIRES FAITH. FAITH IN GOD ALONE THROUGH JESUS CHRIST ALONE FOR SALVATION. AS THE SCRIPTURE SAYS, "ALL ARE WITHOUT EXCUSE." EVERY PERSON IN HELL, RIGHT NOW, WOULD TELL YOU THAT THEY'D BE IN CHURCH TOMORROW MORNING...WITH BELLS ON...TO HEAR THE GOSPEL AND ACCEPT THE FREE GIFT OF CHRIST. BUT, IT IS TOO LATE FOR THEM, BUT NOT FOR YOU. FOR FURTHER INFORMATION, FIND A BOOKSTORE, EVEN BARNES AND NOBLE OR B.DALTON, THEY SELL BIBLES. GO TO THE FOURTH BOOK OF THE NEW TESTAMENT NAMED "JOHN" AND START READING. KEEP READING UNTIL YOU CAN UNDERSTAND IT. IF YOU ARE HAVING DIFFICULTY, FEEL FREE TO PM ME.

Wow, you are very presumptuous. When you feel like talking to me, rather than preaching at me and making hasty assumptions that has no ground in truth, I’m here.

I WOULD ALSO RECOMMEND YOU TO PICK UP THE FOLLOWING BOOKS, "THE CASE FOR CHRIST" BY LES STROBEL AND "LETTERS FROM A SKEPTIC" BY GREG BOYD.

No thank you, I don’t have time for apologetics 100. Les Strobel is a substandard apologist, and I prefer far more substance to my reading material.

 

[The Heretic]

I read it, and I'm still waiting for the contradiction.

Perhaps english is not your first language.

 

[Reba]

Here's the contradiction. If someone had Jesus in them, that would forgive them so they can go to heaven.

Correct. That is the position of a saved sinner. A saved (born again) sinner will go to heaven. That is unchangeable.

Jesus being in them would cause them not be able to sin because Jesus has a sinless nature. Then why do Christians continue to sin?

A saved sinner is still a sinner. He has the new nature of Jesus but at the same time he still has the old carnal nature (that he was born with) until his body has also been redeemed at the resurrection. These two natures struggle until then. There is no sinless perfection in a believer while still on earth in a corruptible body. A Christian will still commit sins but the difference is, the Holy Spirit will convict (bother with guilt feelings) the person until he repents that sin. The commission of unrepented sins will break the fellowship of the sinner with God, but it will not change the sinner's position with God.

A Christian will sin (commit sins) but will not continue in a sinful lifestyle. As a Christian commits sins, the Holy Spirit will convict, and God will chastain (punish), not out of vindictiveness (meaness) but to train the Christian and guide him.

 

[Rose Immortal]

Reba--to add to your more literal description, if anybody here is a fan of the Narnia Chronicles by C.S. Lewis (yeah, here I go again... ), there's a neat figurative depiction of that process of coming into one's new nature. It's the part in Voyage of the Dawn Treader where Eustace's greedy nature turns him into a dragon...how he gets out of that situation demonstrates your point in a slightly more accessible form. In my opinion, anyway.

Sorry to the real philosophers for the intrusion...I found it relevant, anyway.

 

[pek1]

Here's the contradiction. If someone had Jesus in them, that would forgive them so they can go to heaven. Jesus being in them would cause them not be able to sin because Jesus has a sinless nature. Then why do Christians continue to sin? Does that mean Jesus being in Christians is not enough to stop them from sinning? How come someone with Jesus, only sinless one ever to walk the planet, inside them could ever sin?

RedFox,

Go back and read what I wrote to Heretic, as your question is trite and has already been answered by me.

 

[The Heretic]

Au Contraire! Pek1, Redfox's question isn't trite, for it is actually a pithy and concise summation of my post. It was actually a direct answer to the disingenuous question by dkf747. And your answer is more of a pre-packaged preaching that totally misses the force behind my argument, and completely failed to address it in any shape or form.

Perhaps thinking is anathema to people like you who swallow dogma uncritically, like sheep.

 

[pek1]

Au Contraire! Pek1, Redfox's question isn't trite, for it is actually a pithy and concise summation of my post. It was actually a direct answer to the disingenuous question by dkf747. And your answer is more of a pre-packaged preaching that totally misses the force behind my argument, and completely failed to address it in any shape or form.

Perhaps thinking is anathema to people like you who swallow dogma uncritically, like sheep.

The Heretic,

To be quite frank with you, I find that you must be understand something of the Gospel, otherwise, you would not have posted. Due to the fact that, for the most part, I answered you Scripturally, I cannot force you or ask you to accept what I say or what anyone else says, because that's not my job, neither was it when I was in the ministry. It will be you, and you alone, The Heretic, who will stand before God and give and account for yourself. If you don't have Christ as your Savior, then there is no hope, you're already damned to Hell. On the other hand, if you have Christ as Savior, then there is no need to worry, is there?

 

[deafdyke]

there's a neat figurative depiction of that process

Key word.....FIGURATIVE!!!!! How do we know that the Bible isn't in and of itself a metaphor, rather then something to be taken literally?

 

[The Heretic]

C'est la vie!

To be quite frank with you, I find that you must be understand something of the Gospel, otherwise, you would not have posted.

Surely you jest. You can't be saying that if everyone understood "something" of the Gospel, then nobody would post here at all. Moreover, you must accept that there are many different interpretations of the "gospel," which leads to all these discussions, and proving your assertion false.

My understanding of the bible, of christianity is decidedly different from the traditional christian's because i can see past the surface. I read the writings of the theologians such as Kierkegaard, Tillich, Barth, and many philosophers of religion who attempt to articulate the message.

Also, my post was intended to demonstrate that the doctrines of christianity as they have been formulated and expounded are internally inconsistent, meaning that they are simply the inventions of men.

Due to the fact that, for the most part, I answered you Scripturally, I cannot force you or ask you to accept what I say or what anyone else says, because that's not my job, neither was it when I was in the ministry.

Well, i posted in good faith, for a discussion, but you chose to preach at me, and evade almost every single one of my questions. Not good.

You did not answer the following:

Christian doctrine insists that Christ is required as a payment for sin before the holy and just God, and at the same time, also insists that i must accept this payment in order for it to be effective in preventing my damnation. However, these concepts are incompatible, for if salvation is freely acquired by the grace of God through the sacrifice of Christ, then there is nothing, absolutely nothing i can do to positively or negatively affect that grace. If i can, then my response is elevated above God's sovereignty. Therefore, my acceptance of Christ is irrelevant, if the payment has already been made. However, if my repentance and acceptance is required, then this payment is dependent on my actions, and contradicts the idea that there is nothing i can do to personally satisfy God's justice. This conclusion is inescapable.

Free will is totally irrelevant - even though i can reject the payment, but my rejection cannot affect the payment itself, which has already been made and accepted by God on the behalf of all sinners. Even though i have the free will to jump off the cliff, the law of gravity will still be in effect. If God's perfect nature demanded an absolute payment, then that payment is irrevocable under any circumstance whatsoever.

You insist that God is concerned with our response, rather than the payment itself. However, my free will does not have anything to do with the absolute payment, any more than the jumping off a cliff eliminates free will. If you think God is concerned with our response, our personal actions - repentance and acceptance - then Christ is just a symbol with no atoning power.

It will be you, and you alone, The Heretic, who will stand before God and give and account for yourself. If you don't have Christ as your Savior, then there is no hope, you're already damned to Hell. On the other hand, if you have Christ as Savior, then there is no need to worry, is there?

This is the second time you've committed a fallacy: the black-and-white fallacy, as if there are only two options. I will leave you and others to guess where you said it the first time.

Obviously you love a God who enforces obedience and worship through violent means - the threat of hellfire. So there cannot be any true free choice, when one option is limited by severe punishment. So you love God, not because of your free will, but because you have been coerced by a desire to avoid hell.

However, there are many other options beyond your black-and-white fallacy: that God does not care about whether we are Christians or Muslims or Star Trek fanatics, or that there are many Gods who struggle in order to win our devotion, or that there is no God at all.