The Great Contradiction of Christianity

[MorriganTait]

The Heretic, have you ever studied "Process Theology" at all? Its a new way of looking at the Bible and seeing it through the eyes of science, but as beleievers. Does not try to deny observable reality, and resolves a lot of the simple contradictions Christian Doctrine seems to have always had. It's quite academic, but here are some references you might care for:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Process_theology

http://www.ctr4process.org/

http://www.ctr4process.org/process/CPSWhatIs.htm

http://www.religion-online.org/showarticle.asp?title=90

You certainly do not have to agree, but do understand not all Christians think simplistically and dogmatically.

 

[The Heretic]

The Heretic, have you ever studied "Process Theology" at all? Its a new way of looking at the Bible and seeing it through the eyes of science, but as beleievers. Does not try to deny observable reality, and resolves a lot of the simple contradictions Christian Doctrine seems to have always had. It's quite academic, but here are some references you might care for:

Yes, I am quite familiar with Process Theology, and thank you, Morrigan Tait, for supplying those links.

I first learned about PT when I stormed theologyweb.com several years back with some atheological arguments (how can a perfect god also possess free will?). The funny thing was, some of the regulars there claimed PT avoided those problems as well as some of the other classical paradoxes of an omnimax (omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, and omnibenevolent being) God.

Kierkegaard, as one of the very few theologians I respect, already anticipated all the problematic theology and surpassed even the process theologians with his fideistic brand of Christianity.

You certainly do not have to agree, but do understand not all Christians think simplistically and dogmatically.

You are correct, and I apologize for implying otherwise. I suspect the dogmatists and fundamentalists are more prone to beating their chests online than the more tolerant and careful and authentic christians, thereby making them more vocal and louder, and drown out all the rest.

 

[MorriganTait]

You are correct, and I apologize for implying otherwise. I suspect the dogmatists and fundamentalists are more prone to beating their chests online than the more tolerant and careful and authentic christians, thereby making them more vocal and louder, and drown out all the rest.

I appreciate your taking the time to be thoughtful and inquisitive, and for recognizing that not all Christian "doctrines" are universal to all Christians.

No theology is ever going to be entirely perfect, because the world itself is too vast, and I believe God is also too vast for that.

Frankly, a questioning believer or non-believer does more to solidify my faith than any dogmatic book-thumper (no matter what book they are thumping.) I don't like simple answers, and I don't like people who tell me they believe in things that fly in the face of observable reality - makes me wonder at the usefulness of anything they say.

 

[Rose Immortal]

Kierkegaard, as one of the very few theologians I respect, already anticipated all the problematic theology and surpassed even the process theologians with his fideistic brand of Christianity.

Now you've got me curious...I pulled up the Wikipedia article on process theology, and I'm not sure I buy it. There definitely look to be some problems. Do you have anything that talks about what Kierkegaard said? That sounds like an interesting avenue...

 

[Beowulf]

Shades of Plato's Allegory of the Cave! I will agree with the contention that zealots get undue attention, and no doubt I am not the only one here who notices that APPEARANCE of some sort of mystical ooga booga in our culture, dire declarations that a wrathful God is upon us, that Katrina was just the beginning, run for your lives! A lot of people actually BELIEVE that and it is a shame that they are the focus of our attention. It SEEMS that there was a record number of tornados the past year when of course it was a normal tornado season, for example; the problem was that there were so many video cameras out there among the public, they filed the events and got then shown on television, and we could SWEAR we got the right conclusion, that what we see and hear is TRUTH. In much the same way, zealots have their day on the internet, and it's just a damn shame they think their numbers are legion.

 

[dkf747]

Perhaps english is not your first language.

Perhaps logic isn't yours? You have created a contradiction, that does not exist, only so you could refute it.

 

[RedFox]

Perhaps logic isn't yours? You have created a contradiction, that does not exist, only so you could refute it.

Isn't pointing out a contradiction in Christianity not the same thing as creating one?

 

[The Heretic]

Do you have anything that talks about what Kierkegaard said? That sounds like an interesting avenue...

Yes, I have written a bit about Kierkegaard, but I'm afraid this takes us too far off-topic. If you want I can open a new thread and discuss his shrewd and perceptive take of Christianity.

 

[The Heretic]

classic case of the crow calling the raven black

Perhaps logic isn't yours? You have created a contradiction, that does not exist, only so you could refute it.

Excellent! With such responses, you quickly remove all doubt that English is definitely not your first language. Do you have anything of substance to contribute beyond these knee-jerk handwaves?

If so, then feel free to demonstrate why I have "created a contradiction that doesn't exist," especially when those two incommensurable concepts are already basic to Christianity. Ergo, I haven't "created" a contradiction, but merely presented them in high relief.

Perhaps you are incapable, and that is why all you are doing is pooh-pooh-ing.

 

[dkf747]

Excellent! With such responses, you quickly remove all doubt that English is definitely not your first language. Do you have anything of substance to contribute beyond these knee-jerk handwaves?

If so, then feel free to demonstrate why I have "created a contradiction that doesn't exist," especially when those two incommensurable concepts are already basic to Christianity. Ergo, I haven't "created" a contradiction, but merely presented them in high relief.

Perhaps you are incapable, and that is why all you are doing is pooh-pooh-ing.

You said there was a contradiction, but have not demonstrated that one exists. It's your job to prove your case, not mine.

BTW, why make personal attacks on those who disagree with you?

 

[The Heretic]

Wonderful! More argument by assertions!

You said there was a contradiction, but have not demonstrated that one exists. It's your job to prove your case, not mine.

Argumentum ad veritatem obfuscandam, for I have.

However those with pretense to higher intellect should demonstrate it by employing the rudiments of grammar properly. Failing that, one could just drop the pretense. I refer this individual to my original post, and recommend remedial english classes in the meanwhile. Yet, I shan't hold my breath.

BTW, why make personal attacks on those who disagree with you?

Unfortunately making ignorant ipse dixit does not alter reality, any more than trying to trying tell anyone that there is no contradiction, despite the conviction....

Given that this individual has chosen to pull an ostrich act when s/he could explain away the contradiction, I have nothing further to add. :sure:

 

[MorriganTait]

Isn't pointing out a contradiction in Christianity not the same thing as creating one?

Is pointing out a CAT the same as creating a CAT?

No - pointing something out is NOT the same as creating something. The contradiction either exists or it doesn't - simply pointing it out does not call it into being. Occasionally, a person's faulty logic makes them see contradictions where they don't exist.

The practice of Christianity through the past 20 centuries has been so diverse and complex that it would be hard to claim there are no contradictions ever. Heck, I contradicted things I said yesterday, let alone things I said a decade ago.

 

[RedFox]

Is pointing out a CAT the same as creating a CAT?

No - pointing something out is NOT the same as creating something. The contradiction either exists or it doesn't - simply pointing it out does not call it into being. Occasionally, a person's faulty logic makes them see contradictions where they don't exist.

The practice of Christianity through the past 20 centuries has been so diverse and complex that it would be hard to claim there are no contradictions ever. Heck, I contradicted things I said yesterday, let alone things I said a decade ago.

Oh thanks for giving a concrete example with the cat to help people understand what we mean.

 

[Rose Immortal]

Yes, I have written a bit about Kierkegaard, but I'm afraid this takes us too far off-topic. If you want I can open a new thread and discuss his shrewd and perceptive take of Christianity.

Sure, might be good to get out of this thread...this one's getting kinda nasty.

 

[dkf747]

Argumentum ad veritatem obfuscandam, for I have.

However those with pretense to higher intellect should demonstrate it by employing the rudiments of grammar properly. Failing that, one could just drop the pretense. I refer this individual to my original post, and recommend remedial english classes in the meanwhile. Yet, I shan't hold my breath.


Unfortunately making ignorant ipse dixit does not alter reality, any more than trying to trying tell anyone that there is no contradiction, despite the conviction....

Given that this individual has chosen to pull an ostrich act when s/he could explain away the contradiction, I have nothing further to add. :sure:

I see that you have no ability to debate. All you can do is insult. Your first post was nonsense, and did not demonstrate that the contradiction even existed. In other words, you are just making it up. My ability to use the English language is not the issue here. Since you keep bringing it up we must assume that you have trouble with the English language yourself.

 

[pek1]

Argumentum ad veritatem obfuscandam, for I have.

However those with pretense to higher intellect should demonstrate it by employing the rudiments of grammar properly. Failing that, one could just drop the pretense. I refer this individual to my original post, and recommend remedial english classes in the meanwhile. Yet, I shan't hold my breath.


Unfortunately making ignorant ipse dixit does not alter reality, any more than trying to trying tell anyone that there is no contradiction, despite the conviction....

Given that this individual has chosen to pull an ostrich act when s/he could explain away the contradiction, I have nothing further to add. :sure:

:roll:

 

[RedFox]

I see that you have no ability to debate. All you can do is insult. Your first post was nonsense, and did not demonstrate that the contradiction even existed. In other words, you are just making it up. My ability to use the English language is not the issue here. Since you keep bringing it up we must assume that you have trouble with the English language yourself.

I read the first post and could see the contradiction. How is it nonsense and how does it not demostrate the contradiction?

 

[The Heretic]

On cue.....

...yadda yadda....

Ladies and Gentlemen, with this I present you a perfect example of Lastwordism. It's what fools do when they think they haven't said enough.



Contra the dishonesty of Mr. Lastwordist, my opening post was submitted to a professor of philosophy of religion, who immediately declared it to be postgraduate material. Apparently he can read "nonsense" much better than our resident Lastwordist!

Next!

 

[dkf747]

Ladies and Gentlemen, with this I present you a perfect example of Lastwordism. It's what fools do when they think they haven't said enough.



Contra the dishonesty of Mr. Lastwordist, my opening post was submitted to a professor of philosophy of religion, who immediately declared it to be postgraduate material. Apparently he can read "nonsense" much better than our resident Lastwordist!

Next!

Big deal. There is no contradiction save the one you came up with. You found a professor that agrees with you. That's nice, but it doesn't mean diddly squat on this forum.

Still into insulting rather than discussing? That's too bad.

 

[pek1]

Ladies and Gentlemen, with this I present you a perfect example of Lastwordism. It's what fools do

Yeah, so true...sounds like hot air is almost out of you, The Heretic.