Sign language and grammar

Ariakkas said:
i realize we are talking in circles...but for the sake of argument, one could state that SEE can and will evolve....haha
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how could SEE evolve if its name is exactly what it says (signed exact english)? it's a mode that would simply respond to the actual language of english itself whenever it evolves.
 
Yiffzer said:
so lolcats is a language because it evolved from typos consisting of horrible grammar and dark humor. it was only natural that lolcats would come out to become our new language.

regardless, when it comes down to the root - everything is invented. nothing comes naturally except through our ability to bring forth those inventions through innovation. we gain ideas that are efficient over other methods and when it becomes successful, it will spread like wildfire to popularity.
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I'm afraid the linguists disagree with you.
 
well you're knowledgeable in the field of linguistics so i was hoping you'd correct my logic here.

i mean, if everything's invented and evolved, then pretty much everything is a language in its own.

right? right? of course not. ;D
 
Secretblend said:
Not all languages evolve. Latin for example is a dead language therefore doesn't change anymore.
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The evolution of Latin was in its formation. It died out but its progeny were the Romance languages.
 
Yiffzer said:
aren't all languages invented? we invent language on the go. just like lolcats language emerged through invention.
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Does lolcats fit the criteria of a language?

"A language is a system of relatively arbitrary symbols and grammatical signals that change across time and that members of a community share and use for several purposes: to interact with each other, to communicate their ideas, emotions, and intentions, and to transmit their culture from generation to generation."
 
according to that criteria, lolcats seem to be fitting of a language. we speak lolcats all teh time.
 
Yiffzer said:
well you're knowledgeable in the field of linguistics so i was hoping you'd correct my logic here.

i mean, if everything's invented and evolved, then pretty much everything is a language in its own.

right? right? of course not. ;D
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Circular reasoning. That is the error in your logic.
 
what's exactly circular in my reasoning?

aren't languages invented all the time?

don't infants invent sounds?
 
Yiffzer said:
what's exactly circular in my reasoning?

aren't languages invented all the time?

don't infants invent sounds?
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No,dear, infants don't invent sounds. They mimic sounds. Perhaps a dictionary would assist you in using terminology.

Your reasoning is circular because you keep trying to assert the same incorrect assumptions using different wording. No matter how many times you continue to say it, you are still incorrect in your assumptions.

And mimicry of a sound is not language. Are you purposely being obtuse or do you really have this much trouble with comprehension?
 
i keep asking because i want to know the reason.

WHY are languages NOT INVENTED? even though they are NATURAL, WHY are they NOT INVENTED?

thanks. :)
 
Yiffzer said:
i keep asking because i want to know the reason.

WHY are languages NOT INVENTED? even though they are NATURAL, WHY are they NOT INVENTED?

thanks. :)
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No, I don't think they're invented all the time but the languages do evolve and change over time. If they stope evolving, they become dead languages.

Sometimes a language will give birth to a new language; Old French Sign Language is said to be the parent language of ASL. Latin is said to be the parent language of the Romance language such as French, Italiatin and Spanish.

On the other hand phrases can be invented much more easily than languages. Pwned comes to mind as a recent example. I believe it's also a lolcat? I've tried to look it up but i was unable to find any info on lolcats.

In order to invent a language, you'd have to think about the structure and the syntax of the language and decide what rules should apply to it. That's a lot more work then just sticking with the orginal language. Also, it takes time to learn a new language, hence why it's much harder to invent a new language than to stick with your mother language.
 
Yiffzer said:
i keep asking because i want to know the reason.

WHY are languages NOT INVENTED? even though they are NATURAL, WHY are they NOT INVENTED?

thanks. :)
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I am not sure what you mean with "invented". But an explaination would be that the grammars and syntax and all that language stuff lies within our brain. The rules and how a language appears is not random and invented from nothing, but influenced by many brains working thogheter.

Human languages is a window to how our brain is organized. We correct each other and learn to use language from each other all the time, this is culture and language evolving. That's why you find so many similarities among languages around the world, and also between sign language and spoken languages. Similar words and arts are also found in cultures that never have met.
 
Yiffzer said:
i keep asking because i want to know the reason.

WHY are languages NOT INVENTED? even though they are NATURAL, WHY are they NOT INVENTED?

thanks. :)
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A study of linguistics will answer your question. It has aready been answered any number of times in this thread, but you seem to be either incapble or unwilling to understand that answer. Therefore, additional study on your own will provide you with a wealth of information. That is, if your intention is truly to comprehend and not simply to argue.
 
deafskeptic said:
No, I don't think they're invented all the time but the languages do evolve and change over time. If they stope evolving, they become dead languages.

Sometimes a language will give birth to a new language; Old French Sign Language is said to be the parent language of ASL. Latin is said to be the parent language of the Romance language such as French, Italiatin and Spanish.

On the other hand phrases can be invented much more easily than languages. Pwned comes to mind as a recent example. I believe it's also a lolcat? I've tried to look it up but i was unable to find any info on lolcats.

In order to invent a language, you'd have to think about the structure and the syntax of the language and decide what rules should apply to it. That's a lot more work then just sticking with the orginal language. Also, it takes time to learn a new language, hence why it's much harder to invent a new language than to stick with your mother language.
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Excellent examples of evolution of language. And langauge and it's structure evolves as a function of culture and the communication needs and environment of its users.
 
flip said:
I am not sure what you mean with "invented". But an explaination would be that the grammars and syntax and all that language stuff lies within our brain. The rules and how a language appears is not random and invented from nothing, but influenced by many brains working thogheter.

Human languages is a window to how our brain is organized. We correct each other and learn to use language from each other all the time, this is culture and language evolving. That's why you find so many similarities among languages around the world, and also between sign language and spoken languages. Similar words and arts are also found in cultures that never have met.
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Another excellent point. Cognitive functioning influences the evolution of langauge as does culture and needs of the indiviuals who use it, and environment.
 
Technically, Latin is still evolving. There's some academics who have invented words for things that the Romans wouldn't have known, for example, pizza, car (autocineticum) and garage (autocineticum stabulum). Why people are giving these Latin names is beyond me. Maybe there's a secret plot that, in Europe when it's all united, they're going to bring Latin back as the official language? :P

As for the sounds, sounds are definitely mimicked. We can't really invent sounds because there are only so many possible combinations we can do (btw, my university major is Linguistics :))--for example, we can't invent any "new" sounds. There are sounds which we make in English which we wouldn't notice. If you don't believe me, check out the word 'infant', you say the n as an m, but you say it with your lips and teeth. (n = alveolar, m = bilabial, m between the teeth: labiodental) The reason you say this is because f is also a labiodental (i.e., made between/by the teeth and lips) sound, and it's much easier to say toothy m and f than an n and f.
 
jillio said:
No, English becomes your langauage.
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Oh Okay, SO I learned English first and Learn ASL as my second language. SO ASL is not English. It's a different language other than English? What langauge did I learned from ASL?
 
Roger said:
Oh Okay, SO I learned English first and Learn ASL as my second language. SO ASL is not English. It's a different language other than English? What langauge did I learned from ASL?
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ASL. Or to spell it out: American Sign Language.
 
Roger said:
Oh Okay, SO I learned English first and Learn ASL as my second language. SO ASL is not English. It's a different language other than English? What langauge did I learned from ASL?
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ASL as in American Sign LANGUAGE

Languages do not come in spoken forms only and that is what's so great about the human mind.
 
Interpretrator said:
Exactly. Well said.



No. It is not. Please do some reading about linguistics. There are rules about what constitutes a languages (or a dialect or a pidgin) and it has actually very little to do with communication. Communication is possible without any language at all. "Body language" is not a real language, it is a system of communication. Just because we call something a "language" for the sake of conversation does not make it a true language, like the "language of the birds" (not a real language because it doesn't hold the potential of making new propositions about the future, for example).

You have some romantic views of language and communication and that's very nice but they are not scientifically or linguistically accurate.
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Oh okay, I will read more on Linguistics but I thought lingusitics is the scientific study of the language? I understand the definition LOL. So If I enjoy ASL and SEE , I must be PSE since it's neither ASL or SEE. I use both combination of ASL and SEE. Is that the better answer that I am using? Teach me as much as you can becaeuse My mind is a terrible thing to waste LOL. I am sure everyone is learning something new. Heck, when I came back to the states, I couldn't speak english well and my sign language was terrible! Until I met my wife :) and she help me learn my langauge and everything came back to me. I am just fortunate to be able to communicate in many languages. Thank you for all your replies. Hope we all learn something new from each other! Gotta have a open mind!
 
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