Sign language and grammar

InnocentOdion said:
Hi guys,
Can you guys explain how the grammar of your sign language works? (Please state which one it is) For example, how do you make a question, and how does the layout of certain sentences work (see below)

It's hard to find a good source of information on the grammar of sign language. You can find find information on ASL grammar on Wikipedia, but I don't trust it from there.

I'd also like to know more about why in ASL & BSL one would say something like, "How many brother I have? Three". Why is it said this way, as opposed to "I have three brother", or "I have brother three". I believe it's called a rhetorical question, but don't hold me to it. :ty::ty: Since at the moment I am still learning BSL, I use sign in English-esque grammar.
Click to expand...

BSL and ASL have different gramatical rules, but the modality is the same, so it's possible to understand the core of BSL better by studying ASL. At the moment, most papers about sign language grammars are explained at a linqustic level, as the resources are way skimpier than the major spoken languages. But as research advances, it will be easier to make systems and explainations that makes sense, more accesible for the average educated person. In english we have words like "nouns" and "verbs" and systems to understand english, used in normal language education.

At the moment, with so little resources available, in addition to the resources mentioned in this thread, it's an idea to speak with fluent users of the sign language you want to learn, and notice how they use identifiers, modifiers, localization and space. You can also find videos online clips to study. Also pay attention to how time is explained. Try to not focus on categorizing signs the same way as the spoken/written language you know, as it will confuse you more. Also try to find some high level sign language courses, like those deaf people and interpreters attend.

The way english grammars often is explained in school, with sentence structure with rules for words put here and there, verbs, nouns and so on is most of the time not transferable to sign language as the modality is totally different. So, learn what modifiers, localization and identifiers are, and forget the order of single words, verbs and nouns when using sign language :)

And remember, a deaf person is not 100 percent bilingual before he/she knows two different sign languages :)

Hope this was helpful!
 
Interpretrator said:
No. It isn't. That's PSE or contact sign.

SEE is an invented system.
Click to expand...
Yep.

"Signed Exact English (SEE) was developed in 1972 by Gerilee Gustason. It is not a language; it is a manually coded form of English that uses ASL signs supplemented with special signs or inflections that allow English to be signed exactly as it is spoken."

Manually coded English
 
Interpretrator said:
No. It isn't. That's PSE or contact sign.

SEE is an invented system.
Click to expand...

Exactly. PSE is known as contact sign because it is a combination used by members of 2 different cultures and came into being through the contact of those 2 cultures and languages. It is the result of a natural evolution.
 
Well, that sure took care of my needing to reply to Vampy!!:lol:
 
jillio said:
Exactly. PSE is known as contact sign because it is a combination used by members of 2 different cultures and came into being through the contact of those 2 cultures and languages. It is the result of a natural evolution.
Click to expand...

Would that mean it's a creole or would it be more accurate to call it a pidgin? Perhaps pidgin as it is called Pidgin Signed English.
 
deafskeptic said:
Would that mean it's a creole or would it be more accurate to call it a pidgin? Perhaps pidgin as it is called Pidgin Signed English.
Click to expand...

Well, a creole forms when members of 2 cultures speak some of each other's languages, and thus blend the two, such as the Cajun language that blends the use of French, and English.

A pidgin is created when 2 people from separate cultures don't understand the language of either, and a new form of language is created that they both understand. It evolves from there. So I would classify it more as a Pidgin.
 
jillio said:
Well, a creole forms when members of 2 cultures speak some of each other's languages, and thus blend the two, such as the Cajun language that blends the use of French, and English.

A pidgin is created when 2 people from separate cultures don't understand the language of either, and a new form of language is created that they both understand. It evolves from there. So I would classify it more as a Pidgin.
Click to expand...

Ah. That makes sense. It's my understanding that pidgins can become a full language after a generation or two. However, I think it's unlikely that PSE will be one of those languages.
 
deafskeptic said:
Ah. That makes sense. It's my understanding that pidgins can become a full language after a generation or two. However, I think it's unlikely that PSE will be one of those languages.
Click to expand...

Agreed. One of the hallmarks of PSE or contact sign is that it's totally different depending on the participants. PSE between a Deaf native ASL user and a new hearing student of ASL will be very different than between two intermediate ASL users who still have "English on the brain." I think for that reason it will never really become a language (or dialect) as other pidgins have, like Hawaiian.
 
If SEE is not a langauage, and the first "language" they learned is SEE as their first communication skills, isn't that a language to them? For example, I learned SEE first before I learned ASL. So therefore, SEE becomes my language to where I can communicate with other deaf or HOH. ASL comes later into my life because that was the only thing that my teacher knows while I was going to school oversea. For example, our language is English but it's a new form of the Old English from Europe, so since it has been modified for our communication, i guess our language isn't a language, it is a modification of the English spoken in Great Britian or England becuase thats where the first "english" langauge was originally from before they found the New Land of America. THe real first English langauge is the ProtoIndo-European at the Black Sea (southern Europe). ANd over the years, thousands of years, english language changed to the best of our need in order to communicate. Language is a human speech, the ability to communicate by any means such as gestures, signs, or body language. So basically, any signs, or word that you use is a language. Despite how we look at it, without ASL, SEE, or any other sign langauge, we would not be able to communicate as well as we do today. ASL is originally from the French. SO many langauges today have been changed for our communication purpose. I understand that SEE is a modified code english, hence the word "english" is a language so therefore, it's a modified langauge just like our language. Many words we have today in our dictionary comes from latin, greek, hebrew, and many other langauge and they have been "modified" for our communication today.
 
Roger said:
If SEE is not a langauage, and the first "language" they learned is SEE as their first communication skills, isn't that a language to them? For example, I learned SEE first before I learned ASL...
Click to expand...
You learned the language of English, in a manual mode (SEE). When you learned ASL, you learned a second language.
 
Roger said:
If SEE is not a langauage, and the first "language" they learned is SEE as their first communication skills, isn't that a language to them? For example, I learned SEE first before I learned ASL. So therefore, SEE becomes my language to where I can communicate with other deaf or HOH. ASL comes later into my life because that was the only thing that my teacher knows while I was going to school oversea. For example, our language is English but it's a new form of the Old English from Europe, so since it has been modified for our communication, i guess our language isn't a language, it is a modification of the English spoken in Great Britian or England becuase thats where the first "english" langauge was originally from before they found the New Land of America. THe real first English langauge is the ProtoIndo-European at the Black Sea (southern Europe). ANd over the years, thousands of years, english language changed to the best of our need in order to communicate. Language is a human speech, the ability to communicate by any means such as gestures, signs, or body language. So basically, any signs, or word that you use is a language. Despite how we look at it, without ASL, SEE, or any other sign langauge, we would not be able to communicate as well as we do today. ASL is originally from the French. SO many langauges today have been changed for our communication purpose. I understand that SEE is a modified code english, hence the word "english" is a language so therefore, it's a modified langauge just like our language. Many words we have today in our dictionary comes from latin, greek, hebrew, and many other langauge and they have been "modified" for our communication today.
Click to expand...

No, English becomes your langauage.
 
Roger said:
...For example, our language is English but it's a new form of the Old English from Europe, so since it has been modified for our communication, i guess our language isn't a language, it is a modification of the English spoken in Great Britian or England becuase thats where the first "english" langauge was originally from before they found the New Land of America. THe real first English langauge is the ProtoIndo-European at the Black Sea (southern Europe). ANd over the years, thousands of years, english language changed to the best of our need in order to communicate....
Click to expand...
But SEE didn't evolve from ASL over thousands of years of use by native users. SEE was created in 1972 in an artificial academic setting.

Suppose a group of academicians gathered at Princeton, NJ, and decided that American English was too hard to learn and use. They wanted something that would fit in better with the global economy. So they invented a language that retained some of the American English vocabulary but followed the rules of European Romance languages, such as French. They kept the root verbs but all the endings were changed to fit French grammar rules. And so forth . . .

The academic group pushed hard to get this new "language" taught in all the public schools. All new textbooks included the new "language", and all news media had to use the new "language." They promoted the new "language" as a more advanced kind of English, and spoke patronizingly of the "old" clumsy English. Instructor training and curriculum for the new "language" became a big business. Native users were told that the academics knew what was "better" for them....

That's the difference between a language evolving, and a pseudo-language being invented.
 
Reba said:
But SEE didn't evolve from ASL over thousands of years of use by native users. SEE was created in 1972 in an artificial academic setting.

Suppose a group of academicians gathered at Princeton, NJ, and decided that American English was too hard to learn and use. They wanted something that would fit in better with the global economy. So they invented a language that retained some of the American English vocabulary but followed the rules of European Romance languages, such as French. They kept the root verbs but all the endings were changed to fit French grammar rules. And so forth . . .

The academic group pushed hard to get this new "language" taught in all the public schools. All new textbooks included the new "language", and all news media had to use the new "language." They promoted the new "language" as a more advanced kind of English, and spoke patronizingly of the "old" clumsy English. Instructor training and curriculum for the new "language" became a big business. Native users were told that the academics knew what was "better" for them....

That's the difference between a language evolving, and a pseudo-language being invented.
Click to expand...

Excellent explanation.
 
Reba said:
But SEE didn't evolve from ASL over thousands of years of use by native users. SEE was created in 1972 in an artificial academic setting.

Suppose a group of academicians gathered at Princeton, NJ, and decided that American English was too hard to learn and use. They wanted something that would fit in better with the global economy. So they invented a language that retained some of the American English vocabulary but followed the rules of European Romance languages, such as French. They kept the root verbs but all the endings were changed to fit French grammar rules. And so forth . . .

The academic group pushed hard to get this new "language" taught in all the public schools. All new textbooks included the new "language", and all news media had to use the new "language." They promoted the new "language" as a more advanced kind of English, and spoke patronizingly of the "old" clumsy English. Instructor training and curriculum for the new "language" became a big business. Native users were told that the academics knew what was "better" for them....

That's the difference between a language evolving, and a pseudo-language being invented.[/QUOTE]


Excellent posting!

Can I use that quote to suport any arguments with people out there about SEE being a language?
Click to expand...
 
Reba said:
You learned the language of English, in a manual mode (SEE). When you learned ASL, you learned a second language.
Click to expand...

Exactly. Well said.

Roger said:
Language is a human speech, the ability to communicate by any means such as gestures, signs, or body language. So basically, any signs, or word that you use is a language.
Click to expand...

No. It is not. Please do some reading about linguistics. There are rules about what constitutes a languages (or a dialect or a pidgin) and it has actually very little to do with communication. Communication is possible without any language at all. "Body language" is not a real language, it is a system of communication. Just because we call something a "language" for the sake of conversation does not make it a true language, like the "language of the birds" (not a real language because it doesn't hold the potential of making new propositions about the future, for example).

You have some romantic views of language and communication and that's very nice but they are not scientifically or linguistically accurate.
 
shel90 said:
Can I use that quote to suport any arguments with people out there about SEE being a language?
Click to expand...

Well, you'll probably get as a rebuttal the examples of Gestuno (signed) or Esperanto (spoken). These are languages that were invented, but they are languages because they follow the rules. But they are not natural languages like ASL or English.

SEE, being a manually coded form of English, is a whole other ballpark in that it is not an invented language, it is an invented code.
 
Back
Top