It it really the deaf/Deaf community?

[shel90]

You ask a very good question here.

My father is a retired M.D. so he clearly sees it from a pathological view. He's a firm believer in doing what most people do... Since most people speak and most don't sign, the logical conclusion for him was to get me to confirm to the norm as much as possible. He's like that with everything not just deafness but I won't go into details here as they aren't revelant to this thread. My least favorite phrase is "Most people blah blah blah". :roll: I'm not "most people". Many hearing have that attitude if not to the same extent as my father.

From what I see with hearing parents of deaf children want their children to be part of the hearing world. To many of them -if not all, a child who is unable to speak is somehow less human and more like a brute. I remember a book that had a title that states it all: "The deaf mute howls" by Albert Balin which pretty much sums up the hearing parents' worst fears. It's a pro sign book btw. I don't know if it's just my imagination but I'd think a lot of deaf blacks bear the brunt of hearing fears.

Most of them tend not to question other people especially when they're dealing with matters that they've never had to deal with before. So they turn to those they deem to be the supreme authorities. Enter the doctors and audiologists who inform the parents that if they allow the child to sign, it will hurt their chances to function in society and that they must not be allowed to sign or it'll hurt their ability to speak well.

It's a vicious cycle that feeds on both the medical view of deafness and the bias toward speech. Just my

 

[jillio]

I agree...I would love to see more of those.

A split placement, especially for older kids, allows them to explore both worlds.

 

[shel90]

I notice that some people seem to hide behind the CI as if it is what defines children.

So, is it ok to separate the children with CIs from the children who do not have CIs? Is that what some of you are suggesting?

That's the impression or implication I am getting from all these posts about how CIs this or CI that.

What's up? Do CIs define the children now? Let's bring on the honesty here.

 

[shel90]

A split placement, especially for older kids, allows them to explore both worlds.

Like Deafdyke always suggests...magnet programs. Any school who needs support to set those up has my full 110% support.

See, I am all for exposing all deaf children to the hearing world and other hearing kids.

Now, what about exposing deaf children to the Deaf world and other deaf kids (both implanted and not implanted)? Are you willing to do that or at least support that?

If not, can u tell us why?

 

[jillio]

I notice that some people seem to hide behind the CI as if it is what defines children.

So, is it ok to separate the children with CIs from the children who do not have CIs? Is that what some of you are suggesting?

That's the impression or implication I am getting from all these posts about how CIs this or CI that.

What's up? Do CIs define the children now? Let's bring on the honesty here.

That's a very good question, shel. I get the impression sometimes that the CI is the justification used for not providing a child with access to the deaf community.

 

[doubletrouble]

I have one question...is it bad to send children to Deaf schools? *If they are nearby* since I can undy about not wanting to send the child to a school that is so far but if one is nearby and you (parents) dont want to send them or yourself (deaf people) dont want to go?

I have seen so many Deaf schools and they arent all that different from public schools ..only smaller but many families pay high prices for private schools due to the small number of students in each classroom so the Deaf schools offer that but FREE?

What's so terrible about Deaf schools?

I have 4 Deaf schools near where I am and I wouldn't send my child to any one of those schools. I used to work in one of them and the expectations that the school had for the students was extremely low. This is from a person who's mother was the first Deaf student of one of these schools, I worked there, and my family members have attened. They no longer attend the Deaf schools as well (and their parents are Deaf themselves) and are all attending public schools. The problem around here also is that it isn't just straight deaf children. The enrollment in one of the schools for Deaf children is so low, they are now admitting children who have other disabilities- and have nothing to do with deafness - to stay open. If my child had other issues, then I would consider these programs, but his only obstacle is that his ears do not work. I want my child to be in an enviroment that he is challenged and expected to do well, and that is what I have found in our school district.

 

[Daredevel7]

I have one question...is it bad to send children to Deaf schools? *If they are nearby* since I can undy about not wanting to send the child to a school that is so far but if one is nearby and you (parents) dont want to send them or yourself (deaf people) dont want to go?

I have seen so many Deaf schools and they arent all that different from public schools ..only smaller but many families pay high prices for private schools due to the small number of students in each classroom so the Deaf schools offer that but FREE?

What's so terrible about Deaf schools?

Nothing. I am by no means an expert on Deaf schools. It's just that in my particular case, my mom just didn't like Clarke at that point, and Clarke's assessment of me started a chain reaction that lead me to have an oral only education. Is being with other deaf kids a higher priority than the quality of education and development? A family member of mine moved ALL the way to St. Louis from Miami to go to a good deaf school because his mom did not like the deaf schools in South Florida. Anyway, I am getting off topic here. It just seems that theres too many judgments being made too easily based on a few facts (i.e. sending child to oral only, implanting child, child does not know other deaf kids, etc). It seems that there's so much more to it than that.

 

[shel90]

I have 4 Deaf schools near where I am and I wouldn't send my child to any one of those schools. I used to work in one of them and the expectations that the school had for the students was extremely low. This is from a person who's mother was the first Deaf student of one of these schools, I worked there, and my family members have attened. They no longer attend the Deaf schools as well (and their parents are Deaf themselves) and are all attending public schools. The problem around here also is that it isn't just straight deaf children. The enrollment in one of the schools for Deaf children is so low, they are now admitting children who have other disabilities- and have nothing to do with deafness - to stay open. If my child had other issues, then I would consider these programs, but his only obstacle is that his ears do not work. I want my child to be in an enviroment that he is challenged and expected to do well, and that is what I have found in our school district.

Well, that's sad cuz I work at a Deaf school and we use the public school curriculm and the kids have access to communication, language and everything with anyone at any time. No thanks to LRE..

 

[shel90]

Nothing. I am by no means an expert on Deaf schools. It's just that in my particular case, my mom just didn't like Clarke at that point, and Clarke's assessment of me started a chain reaction that lead me to have an oral only education. Is being with other deaf kids a higher priority than the quality of education and development? A family member of mine moved ALL the way to St. Louis from Miami to go to a good deaf school because his mom did not like the deaf schools in South Florida. Anyway, I am getting off topic here. It just seems that theres too many judgments being made too easily based on a few facts (i.e. sending child to oral only, implanting child, child does not know other deaf kids, etc). It seems that there's so much more to it than that.

In my experience in the Deaf schools I have had..all used high quality education. I guess there are some that do not and if I were to visit those, I would question them big time to why the standards are lowered. I wonder which schools are still doing that.

 

[jillio]

Nothing. I am by no means an expert on Deaf schools. It's just that in my particular case, my mom just didn't like Clarke at that point, and Clarke's assessment of me started a chain reaction that lead me to have an oral only education. Is being with other deaf kids a higher priority than the quality of education and development? A family member of mine moved ALL the way to St. Louis from Miami to go to a good deaf school because his mom did not like the deaf schools in South Florida. Anyway, I am getting off topic here. It just seems that theres too many judgments being made too easily based on a few facts (i.e. sending child to oral only, implanting child, child does not know other deaf kids, etc). It seems that there's so much more to it than that.

There indeed is much more to it than that, and that is where the cultural issues come into play. So, parent doesn't want to send their child to a deaf school. What are they doing to develop associations with other deaf to expose their children to the culture? It would seem that in the majority of cases, public school means no cultural exposure.

 

[Daredevel7]

That's the impression or implication I am getting from all these posts about how CIs this or CI that.

What's up? Do CIs define the children now? Let's bring on the honesty here.

I think that was my fault! I used CI as an example of an issue between hearing parents and Deaf people, and somehow it blew up in this thread.

Anyway, I spoke to my speech therapist and she said this "In working with a new child and parent, I most often find that the (hearing) parent wants their child to listen and talk, and is somewhat afraid of letting them lipread or use gestures. It's usually harder for me to convince parents to prioritize communication (use lipreading and natural gestures) than to use visual and gestural deprivation."

It shows evidence that there's a lot of hearing parents who have that mentality of making their child as normal as possible.

 

[shel90]

I think that was my fault! I used CI as an example of an issue between hearing parents and Deaf people, and somehow it blew up in this thread.

Anyway, I spoke to my speech therapist and she said this "In working with a new child and parent, I most often find that the (hearing) parent wants their child to listen and talk, and is somewhat afraid of letting them lipread or use gestures. It's usually harder for me to convince parents to prioritize communication (use lipreading and natural gestures) than to use visual and gestural deprivation."

It shows evidence that there's a lot of hearing parents who have that mentality of making their child as normal as possible.

Yea...there is nothing wrong with using visual cues or language to maximize communication for the children. Why make things more difficult? Life is already difficult as it is for many children with all the other issues going on in the world. I would think it would be common sense to make communication as accessible as it can be for all deaf children.

 

[doubletrouble]

This is getting a bit off topic, so forgive me, but I think that this is important as well. In my son's school, there are 3 other children with various degrees of hearing loss - one of these children is implanted as well. My son was the first deaf child in the school district in many many years and the first one in his building. His self esteem about who he is and what he is is very intact and I couldn't be any more prouder of him. That being said, there is a student in his classroom who has a hearing loss. Like my child, this student is a multiple. I have had little interaction with the family, but what I do know is that hearing aids are not reinforced at all. From what I can assume and gather, their child's deafness (hearing loss) has never been addressed and this child has been a NIGHTMARE in the classrooms. This is the first year my child and this other child were paired up (not by classification, but by happenstance). Mom told the teacher if she did not want to wear the hearing aids, not a big deal-it wasn't reinforced at home- she'll get by. Mom has never advocated for TOD services nor made sure that the teacher was trained on how to work with her child. Now I come into the classroom like gang busters and make sure that EVERYTHING is in place for my child, right down to seaing assignments. I stuck my 2 cents in about the other child and demanded things that weren't even requested- but since I have a great relationship with the school district, they complied. This child was embarassed of who she was and probably feels as if she doesn't exactly fit in. (Hence, the nightmare child in the classroom). I know this because it has been commented to me that my child has helped this girl to accept who she is. Back to school night, I was told for the very first time, she actually drew a picture of herself wearing her hearing aids!! ( My son always has his CI's drawn in- it's who he is).. Tears actually came down my face because up until this moment, she never really saw herself for who she is and really has started embracing her identity. I know in my heart that this wouldn't have happened if she had never met my child. I hope one day she has to courage to ask Mom and Dad why??? but that whole scenario breaks my heart. Yes, there are some paretns who refuse to acknowledge their child's deafness and the end result is a child who acts out in sheer frustration. It's not her fault. It's these cases that make me angry and understand all the rage and bitterness. Thank goodness, I see far and few cases of this and the majority of children that I know that are implanted- this is not the case.

Just wanted to share.

 

[jillio]

I think that was my fault! I used CI as an example of an issue between hearing parents and Deaf people, and somehow it blew up in this thread.

Anyway, I spoke to my speech therapist and she said this "In working with a new child and parent, I most often find that the (hearing) parent wants their child to listen and talk, and is somewhat afraid of letting them lipread or use gestures. It's usually harder for me to convince parents to prioritize communication (use lipreading and natural gestures) than to use visual and gestural deprivation."

It shows evidence that there's a lot of hearing parents who have that mentality of making their child as normal as possible.

And I think that it is that mentality, as well, that prevents a parent being willing to become involved with the deaf community. Even though they will deny their thoughts because they don't think that they are acceptable thoughts to have, their actions show something contradictory to their words. It is also why I say that parents need to deal with their own issues over having a deaf child.

 

[jillio]

This is getting a bit off topic, so forgive me, but I think that this is important as well. In my son's school, there are 3 other children with various degrees of hearing loss - one of these children is implanted as well. My son was the first deaf child in the school district in many many years and the first one in his building. His self esteem about who he is and what he is is very intact and I couldn't be any more prouder of him. That being said, there is a student in his classroom who has a hearing loss. Like my child, this student is a multiple. I have had little interaction with the family, but what I do know is that hearing aids are not reinforced at all. From what I can assume and gather, their child's deafness (hearing loss) has never been addressed and this child has been a NIGHTMARE in the classrooms. This is the first year my child and this other child were paired up (not by classification, but by happenstance). Mom told the teacher if she did not want to wear the hearing aids, not a big deal-it wasn't reinforced at home- she'll get by. Mom has never advocated for TOD services nor made sure that the teacher was trained on how to work with her child. Now I come into the classroom like gang busters and make sure that EVERYTHING is in place for my child, right down to seaing assignments. I stuck my 2 cents in about the other child and demanded things that weren't even requested- but since I have a great relationship with the school district, they complied. This child was embarassed of who she was and probably feels as if she doesn't exactly fit in. (Hence, the nightmare child in the classroom). I know this because it has been commented to me that my child has helped this girl to accept who she is. Back to school night, I was told for the very first time, she actually drew a picture of herself wearing her hearing aids!! ( My son always has his CI's drawn in- it's who he is).. Tears actually came down my face because up until this moment, she never really saw herself for who she is and really has started embracing her identity. I know in my heart that this wouldn't have happened if she had never met my child. I hope one day she has to courage to ask Mom and Dad why??? but that whole scenario breaks my heart. Yes, there are some paretns who refuse to acknowledge their child's deafness and the end result is a child who acts out in sheer frustration. It's not her fault. It's these cases that make me angry and understand all the rage and bitterness. Thank goodness, I see far and few cases of this and the majority of children that I know that are implanted- this is not the case.

Just wanted to share.

And that was not off topic at all, doubletrouble. In fact, it hit the nail on the head. It took another deaf child to help the one who was troubled. And your son is so very lucky to have exposure to both his hearing family and his deaf family. You are providing him with an environment that allows him to develop the strong identity that you spoke about.

It is true that the case you shared is an extreme case...most parents aren't outwardly neglectful. They just don't see the need for the exposure to the deaf community.

Thank you for sharing that story. It was an excellent illustration.

 

[faire_jour]

Perhaps it is a case of making the choice to ignore that which would cause revision in their perspective. It happens all the time in all walks of life. Just the same my deaf son closing his eyes because he did not want to be corrected on his behavior, some adults will choose to ignore that which makes them uncomfortable or would cause them to engage in an active change process.

I completly disagree. I think that many parents find the Deaf community to be closed and unwelcoming. They are told they are wrong again and again. They are told that they will scar their children by their choices, that they are "not accepting their child as deaf", and that they "want to change them into hearing". They are shunned and often looked down on, for the simple fact that they can hear. This is not always the case, but it happens a lot. Why would you continue to associate with people who treat you like that? People who tell you that you are wrong to want your child to have oral skills, that they will fail and be uneducated if you make the "wrong" choices. I wouldn't want my child around those people either.

 

[shel90]

I completly disagree. I think that many parents find the Deaf community to be closed and unwelcoming. They are told they are wrong again and again. They are told that they will scar their children by their choices, that they are "not accepting their child as deaf", and that they "want to change them into hearing". They are shunned and often looked down on, for the simple fact that they can hear. This is not always the case, but it happens a lot. Why would you continue to associate with people who treat you like that? People who tell you that you are wrong to want your child to have oral skills, that they will fail and be uneducated if you make the "wrong" choices. I wouldn't want my child around those people either.

Where did u encounter that? Here on AD?

 

[Daredevel7]

I completly disagree. I think that many parents find the Deaf community to be closed and unwelcoming. They are told they are wrong again and again. They are told that they will scar their children by their choices, that they are "not accepting their child as deaf", and that they "want to change them into hearing". They are shunned and often looked down on, for the simple fact that they can hear. This is not always the case, but it happens a lot. Why would you continue to associate with people who treat you like that? People who tell you that you are wrong to want your child to have oral skills, that they will fail and be uneducated if you make the "wrong" choices. I wouldn't want my child around those people either.

Are you getting most of the negative comments from AD or in person?

 

[shel90]

Are you getting most of the negative comments from AD or in person?

That's what I am wondering...

 

[doubletrouble]

I completly disagree. I think that many parents find the Deaf community to be closed and unwelcoming. They are told they are wrong again and again. They are told that they will scar their children by their choices, that they are "not accepting their child as deaf", and that they "want to change them into hearing". They are shunned and often looked down on, for the simple fact that they can hear. This is not always the case, but it happens a lot. Why would you continue to associate with people who treat you like that? People who tell you that you are wrong to want your child to have oral skills, that they will fail and be uneducated if you make the "wrong" choices. I wouldn't want my child around those people either.

Yes, I can relate.. I hear this a lot... Just tell them to mind their own business in sign and look at their reaction when they realize you know how to sign!