Increasing Abortion Rates

[VamPyroX]

If a woman can't "afford" a baby, then she tells the man to zip up his trousers until they can. If they can't afford the children they already have, they don't kill them too, do they?


What do you mean, "women are going to get killed"? Who is killing women?

What about the women who are raped? What if they were raped and can't afford to keep the baby. What can they do?

 

[Vance]

[Edit]: After few hours of this original post, I changed my mind... In fact, I worn out from debating with people on few issues. However I removed my comments only and left the facts for you to ponder on. These facts are more than enough to dismiss your 'promiscuous' myth since it is pure baloney in first place. One book mentioned that many people have sex literally daily for pleasure and love in different countries included old civilization (Native Americans have sex literally daily...'literally sex' by that, I mean they will not sex during woman's phase stage) they don't have any problem with abortion issues or whatever you are ranting nonsense about... As these facts that I posted, abortion has NEVER been an 'issue' for thousand years.... until America. Back in 19th Century, belief-based doctors simply want to control over women and their lives so they start to ban the abortions. The history shows that there was never any kind of abortion issue for thousand years. Let me repeat: Abortion has NEVER been an 'issue' for many thousand years. These people made love much more than we did in present yet they don't have the problem. In other words, you just cannot use that 'promiscuous' excuse.[Edit]

I am going to bring up few things about abortion in here since these will be not offtopic... Some of you people ... ok, I want to add few things about abortion and sex (I have to mention about sex because some of people are ranting about 'promiscuous' :roll: These people are using wrong reason for anti-abortion since it is pure baloney). Facts (sources are in below):

In Sweden, abortion has been available upon request since 1973 up till the 18th week of pregnancy, and sex education has been a compulsory subject in schools since 1956. At 19 abortions per 1000 women per year, Sweden's abortion rate is three times higher than Holland's, and only 20% less than the rate of the United States, but the abortion rate for women under 25 is half that of the U.S.

Sweden is particularly interesting because their birth rate increased to more than two children per woman during the 1990's. The reason for the baby boom was the creation of a 15-month paid parental leave, a doubling of the number of day care centres, and other perks, such as paid leave for parents of sick children. The government's policy is not to increase the birth rate, though -- it's to help children successfully integrate into society. A lesson can be learned from that policy, because many countries that made abortion illegal -- Nazi Germany for instance -- did it to increase the birth rate. Obviously, a far more humane and effective way of increasing the birth rate, as demonstrated by Sweden, is to give parents the time and the resources to raise children well.

See? That's ONLY reason why some of countries banned the abortion because of not enough population.. but now they do and they removed the ban. Hence why UN, WHO (World Health Organization), WTO and many organization praised Sweden as well-structured and highly educated society. They clearly are not undereducated or lack of common sense/responsibility. But wait, there is more... Holland:

In the Netherlands, abortion is freely available on demand. Yet the Netherlands boasts the lowest abortion rate in the world, about 6 abortions per 1000 women per year, and the complication and death rates for abortion are miniscule. How do they do it? First of all, contraception is widely available and free -- it's covered by the national health insurance plan. Holland also carries out extensive public education on contraception, family planning, and sexuality. An ethic of personal responsibility for one's sexual activity is strongly promoted. Of course, some people say that teaching kids about sex and contraception will only encourage them to have lots of sex. But Dutch teenagers tend to have less frequent sex, starting at an older age, than American teenagers, and the Dutch teenage pregnancy rate is 9 times lower than in the U.S.(Magatsu's comment: Thank you for proving my point)

An important message that we can learn from Holland and other European countries is that even the most comprehensive family planning programs and widespread contraceptive use will never completely eliminate the need for abortion. Abortion is a critical backstop to contraception, which is not 100% effective. And people do make mistakes -- they sometimes forget to use their contraception, or they use it wrong. Motherhood should never be a punishment for human error. (Magatsu's comment: EXACTLY! Why some people kept failing to see the point?)

Once again, Holland dismissed the usual excuses.

One more...

Legal Abortion: the Sign of a Civilized Society

Abortion is probably the world's most common surgical procedure. About 46 million abortions are performed every year, 20 million of them illegal. Abortion is practiced widely by women all over the world, across all social classes, and regardless of laws against abortion. Since the beginning of recorded history, abortion has been commonly practiced by almost all societies, including ancient China, Egypt, Greece, Rome, and countless others. In fact, abortion could be called a fundamental aspect of human behaviour. (Magatsu's comment: Uh hu, whoever wrote that nailed it perfectly)

How did the world manage to arrive at this troubling state of affairs? After all, abortion has been generally legal throughout history. It was only during the 19th century that abortion was made illegal in most parts of the world for the first time. Doctors led the crusade to criminalize abortion, partly to protect women from dangerous abortion techniques, but also to exercise more control over the practice of medicine, since abortions were being performed by mostly female practitioners, such as midwives. Restrictions against abortions started to lift after the 2nd World War, primarily in socialist countries like the former Soviet Union. Most western and European countries liberalized their abortion laws over the following decades, an ongoing trend that is now spreading to developing countries. By 1986, 36 countries had liberal abortion laws, and as of 1997, an additional 10 developed and 9 developing countries had also eased their laws.

The driving forces behind liberalization, then and now, were the threat to public health of illegal abortion, increasing social support for women's rights, availability of modern contraceptives, concern for the equal treatment of both poor women and rich women, decreasing influence of organized religion, and in some countries, thalidomide babies and epidemics of rubella, which created an awareness of the need for legal abortion.

The popular excuses included promiscuous is offically dismissed. To close my facts & comments, allow me share my experiences with you. You have to remember that I am very open-minded person... To make a point out of this topic so I want to say something. My date and I performed sex 'literally daily' and she didn't get preg. Why? How? Responsibility and common sense. That's two key things which many americans does not have or utilize.

What do I mean about that? God gave us the knowledge right? Why not you just use it? There is a book that instruct how to prevent pregnacy in natural way. It is so fascinating... By using the thermostat and other methods (check cervix & mucus in vaginal) to keep in check on my date's menstrual cycle . It is incredibly simple... All we need is the papers to keep a note on and thermostat. Voila! She couldn't get preg by following her menstrual cycle. It is no brainer... That's number one knowledge and responsibility. Note: My mother used that method with her boyfriend 'literally daily' for several years and she didn't get preg. I did it with my date for approx 8 months now and she didn't get preg either. That book mentioned that all of women who used that method haven't get preg with their lovers. In other words, it is safe to be considering as 100% sex-safe method. The book also stated that the method (without thermostat) has been used in different cultures for many thousand years. Pre-19th century people clearly are smarter than us.

There are three safe-use herbs to prevent pregnancy without any kind of side effects or complications (Many Swedish gals & some american gals I know has used it to prevent the pregnacy and it works well for them). My date would use it instead of that cycle method but she determine to use it (cycle method) so it will 'root' in her memory... since we both predicted that book will be illegalize by Religious Right (since they are so damn predictable :roll. So we have to practice virtually everyday to 'root' in our memory (actually that method require us to do that.. it proved that we are taking the responsibility). Once it got 'rooted' in, we can always carry that method/memory to our generations or any countries. That's number two knowledge and common sense (Note: I didn't wear the condoms. I HATE IT. My date HATE it too)

In other words, we just solve the common problems with natural but simple methods. Sure, you can restrict women's rights by anti-abortion law but you can't ban our knowledges of natural methods out of our brains. Na! Na! Na! (btw, that book I spoke of was approved by Catholic which is more stricter than Christianity. Impressive, is it?)

Sources & references: (in next post)

 

[Vance]

Edit: Sources & references:

Alan Guttmacher Institute, 1999. Sharing Responsibility: Women, Society & Abortion Worldwide. New York, NY.

Alan Guttmacher Institute, 1998. Into a New World: Young Women's Sexual and Reproductive Lives. New York, NY.

David, Henry P. 1992. Abortion in Europe, 1920-91: A Public Health Perspective. Studies in Family Planning. Vol. 23, No. 1, Jan/Feb.

Globe & Mail, October 13, 1998. Teens battle to survive Bucharest streets. Geoffrey York. Pg. A12.

Goodwin, Jan. 1996. Prisoners of Biology. On the Issues. Fall 1996, pp. 17-23.

Joffe, Carole. Abortion and the Medical Profession: A Complicated Relationship. Medical Students for Choice Newsletter, January, 1998. http://www.ms4c.org/joffe.shtml

Planned Parenthood Federation of America. Born Unwanted: Developmental Consequences for Children of Unwanted Pregnancies. Fact Sheet.

Planned Parenthood Federation of America. Health Benefits to American Society Since Abortion was Legalized. http://www.plannedparenthood.org/library/abortion/healthbenef.html

Planned Parenthood Federation of America. Planning the Global Family: Population and Reproductive Health. http://www.plannedparenthood.org/about/intlfamplan/globalfamily.html

United Nations Population Fund. 1997. The State of World Population.

U.S. Agency for International Development. 1997. U.S. International Population Funding and Family Planning Assistance.




I want to leave something for you to think:

Poppy suspects that the Religious Right has taken billions of dollars from well-intentioned Christians to "fight" abortion. She also suspects that dividing and attacking the weakest in society has become too lucrative for them to wean themselves. She is reminded of Ephesians 6:12 and the "spiritual wickedness" to which it refers.

It may not shocking to you but I agree with it (Spoke of Religious Right). And this interesting fact:

- The most common cause of death for a pregnant woman in the US is murder.

Uh hu. Strange, people did nothing about murders yet they are complaining about abortion. People are weird.


Ok, I am done. Remember these simple facts: 1) Abortion practices has been used for many thousand years... 2) abortion has NEVER been an 'issue' for many thousand years 3) Well-structured countries such as Holland or Sweden have no whatosever problem with abortions. Note: Well-structured. America clearly aren't. 4) There are few natural methods to prevent the pregnancy so if these Religious Right nuts want to ban your women's rights, there is another way for you to prevent the pregnancy without losing your pleasure opportunities thru few methods that I mentioned above. 5) The important fact: Sure, Religious Right nuts can restrict women's rights by anti-abortion law but they can't ban our knowledges of natural methods out of our brains.

The most important statement: The hope lies in the knowledge that good always, always triumphs over evil. In other words, their arrogant movements will backfire on these Religious Right nuts since Jesus clearly does not allow anyone to impose their beliefs on any people.

Any women or men who wants to know more about book that I mentioned about natural methods, contact me thru PM. I don't want to give these certain people another opportunity/reason to ban the book that approved by Catholic.

Edit: I want to post one of many reviewers who gave the two thumbs to that book I spoke of. Here it is..

Great Alternative to Artificial Birth Contol
This method works! We have been practicing this for almost 3 years and have not become pregnant. We are Catholic, and this book is written from a very strict Catholic viewpoint. If you are offended by that, the *******(Magatsu removed the author name to protect other book from certain people) book might be a better choice - same basic principles/method without the theology. For us, [Title book removed by Magatsu] was perfect though. I highly recommend it to all Catholics. It has the added benefit of helping you become more in touch with your faith and the beliefs of the Church.

That reviewer mentioned about other book, it got me curious and plan to order that book tomorrow.

 

[Y]

Example:

My aunt and uncle had two birth daughters. They took in a new-born infant boy as a foster child. They named him. They raised that boy for eight years. They were the only parents he knew. The two girls were his sisters. He was their brother. My aunt and uncle tried and tried to adopt the boy. The state said they were too old. Finally, the state said that the boy was becoming too attached to the family, so they took him away. Does that make sense?

Hell, NO !

Several families at my church have been thru the foster and adoption processes. It takes years, many disappointments, and many thousands of dollars. Recently, friends of ours adopted a teenager. A few years ago they adopted a toddler. Now they are trying to adopt another child, about 10 years old. The 10-year-old has a younger sibling, living in another foster home. My friends want to adopt both and keep them together. But the state won't let the siblings stay in one home together. Does that make sense?

Another Hell, Big Fat NO !!!!

This entire system is completely flawed. I would NOT want
to adopt anyone, only because of this LOUSY system.
That's their fault, sigh...

 

[Vance]

This entire system is completely flawed. I would NOT want
to adopt anyone, only because of this LOUSY system.
That's their fault, sigh...

I wonder... That's what my friends & Swedish people and I discussed a while ago. With anti-women's rights law (anti-abortion) and overhaul Social Security, we are curious what will Americans do with these unwanted children. Once anti-abortion law passed, there will be 20% - 40% increase of unwanted children within 2 years and 50% - 120% in 5 - 8 years later with overhauled Social Security. In the end, they will beg Europe & Sweden or democratic party to offer their wisely solutions to repair the problem.

We are verrrry curious what will these people do with these massive unwanted children while with lowest job creation rate and highest unemployment rates as well. I believe it would be fun to watch them panicking about it. weeee.

Edit: And many women will get killed from black market abortion (coat-hangers, hot glues, etc... just like old times). The numbers of dead women will be skyrocketed along with unwanted children.

 

[Angel]

Magatsu,

Why am I getting the feelings that you are insulting the Christian people?....Since I've read a couple of your thread and now this one and you're still at it....

It ok to have an opinion on what you think about Christian people but lately I'm seeing you rubbing them in a ' bad way ' , if I am wrong then I apology...

 

[Vance]

Magatsu,

Why am I getting the feelings that you are insulting the Christian people?....Since I've read a couple of your thread and now this one and you're still at it....

It ok to have an opinion on what you think about Christian people but lately I'm seeing you rubbing them in a ' bad way ' , if I am wrong then I apology...

I believe I do sound like one but actually I am not. I quoted what people said to me. Nothing more I do support many christian groups who practice what they preach about not imposing their beliefs on others. I have nothing against any kind of christians. However I do agree with their points about christianity itself, I am not a anti-christian person. I was a christian myself. Sorry if I do sound like one. I don't know if you ever read one of my posts but in case, I tend to pose as devil's advocate to get a point across. I love to make people to think. Again, sorry if you feel that I am against christians but I am not My family and my old generations are christians.

btw, again I am not against any christians included you and people like Reba but I do against some christians' improperly behaviors such as impose their beliefs on others or judge others.

 

[Angel]

Thank you Magatsu for being honest and I appreciate it! I do understand what you mean and agree with that...I guess I read it the wrong way forgive me here!

 

[Vance]

Thank you Magatsu for being honest and I appreciate it! I do understand what you mean and agree with that...I guess I read it the wrong way forgive me here!

No problem Glad that you pointed it out, I definitely have to be careful with what I plan to say in any posts next time. I tend to say whatever on my mind. My bad habit. I sometimes get too honest with people, some people are not ready for 'too honest' comments. Anyway, thank to you, I have to review my posts before I submit my post (I mean, I have to be careful to not insult any groups)

Again, thank you for pointing my comments out. Won't let it happen again

 

[Reba]

What about the women who are raped? What if they were raped and can't afford to keep the baby. What can they do?

They can give the babies up for adoption.

 

[Reba]

We are verrrry curious what will these people do with these massive unwanted children...

There are no "unwanted" children. The children are much wanted. The problem is allowing the people adopt the children. There are too many regulations making the adoption process too difficult and slow.

 

[Angel]

There are no "unwanted" children. The children are much wanted. The problem is allowing the people adopt the children. There are too many regulations making the adoption process too difficult and slow.

Actually that's not true at all, there are ALOT of unwanted children out there who are waiting to be place in a nice home, but most parents are looking for babies than children who are already growing up a bit or children who has aids, disablity, disease or etc....Most parents are just looking for a perfect baby to adopt....

 

[Cheri]

Some says Abortion is the same as murder; anti-abortionists attack women who support abortion by saying that they are selfish, unloving and hate babies. They call them murderers. Of course, as soon as an egg is fertilised, there is life; the foetus can become a person. That often those stressing the need to stop abortion are trying to force their beliefs on others.
If a mother abused her six-month-old child so severely that the child died; She might kept on having babies and kept killing them, What can you say about that?
Yes, abortion is truly bad imo, but some women have the right to have an abortion, if she is in mental state as I mention above, medical diffcults and etc. But, I do not think the Government has the right to opposition to abortion because, women are going to find other ways to get it done anywhere on some dirty table and get killed for it.

 

[Reba]

Actually that's not true at all, there are ALOT of unwanted children out there who are waiting to be place in a nice home, but most parents are looking for babies than children who are already growing up a bit or children who has aids, disablity, disease or etc....

Many families specifically request AIDS babies, Downs babies, handicapped children. I know many families who want to adopt more handicapped children but the state won't let them.

....Most parents are just looking for a perfect baby to adopt....

If women give their babies for adoption instead of killing them, every one could be adopted.

 

[Angel]

Reba,

You said there was NO ' unwanted children ' out there, and that part is not true....Edit: It is the adopted agency program that running a bit slow, and not placing those children in a home....

And the part of being put on the waiting list, I heard for babies yes but not for other children....

Have you ever went to other adopted agency in other states?

 

[Reba]

Reba,

You said there was NO ' unwanted children ' out there, and that part is not true....Edit: It is the adopted agency program that running a bit slow, and not placing those children in a home....

And the part of being put on the waiting list, I heard for babies yes but not for other children....

Have you ever went to other adopted agency in other states?

At the time we checked, it was more difficult to adopt from other states. Maybe the laws are easier now. But before, each state gave preference to the residents within their states.

If there are children on waiting lists, it has nothing to do with abortions. There are always people wanting newborn babies.

Some of the older children that are difficult to place because they have been stuck in the foster care system too long. More red tape problems.

Sometimes infants are not released for adoption, and even they get stuck in foster care for months and years. Why? Here is an example: Babies that are found abandoned. Those babies are not allowed to be adopted until long investigations are done to find the birth parents, then go thru trials, etc. So the baby is stuck waiting. Sometimes kids are stuck because the dad is in prison and refuses to sign a release form to allow adoption. Sometimes the mother lies about the identity of the birth father, and the adoption agency can't get a legal release for the baby.

So yes, there are babies and children on waiting lists, but not because there are not enough parents. If the government and social services could get their acts together, waiting lists would shrink.

My main point is, there is an alternative (choice) to abortion. If a woman is pregnant and not able to raise the child, there is another couple waiting with open arms for that baby.

 

[Angel]

Very true Reba, and I never said anything about children who are on the waiting list has anything to do with abortions, that is a separate issue... With abortion rising so high is because women/young girls are out there spreading their legs out and becoming pregnant and then they don't want to take the responsible for their own actions, just running to a clinic to get an abortion, so that their problem is solved << I find that unfair because it not right to murder an innocent living fetus....If they don't want to take the responsible, then they should know better by protecting themselves or keeping their legs closed, than they wouldn't have a problem worry about it....

 

[Y]

Very true Reba, and I never said anything about children who are on the waiting list has anything to do with abortions, that is a separate issue... With abortion rising so high is because women/young girls are out there spreading their legs out and becoming pregnant and then they don't want to take the responsible for their own actions, just running to a clinic to get an abortion, so that their problem is solved << I find that unfair because it not right to murder an innocent living fetus....If they don't want to take the responsible, then they should know better by protecting themselves or keeping their legs closed, than they wouldn't have a problem worry about it....

yeah, that's frustrating... some of the younger girls
mentioned when they got older and wiser,
they did NOT realize until much later
that abortion is like a murder
an innocent living fetus... Too late....

 

[Reba]

Very true Reba, and I never said anything about children who are on the waiting list has anything to do with abortions, that is a separate issue... With abortion rising so high is because women/young girls are out there spreading their legs out and becoming pregnant and then they don't want to take the responsible for their own actions, just running to a clinic to get an abortion, so that their problem is solved << I find that unfair because it not right to murder an innocent living fetus....If they don't want to take the responsible, then they should know better by protecting themselves or keeping their legs closed, than they wouldn't have a problem worry about it....

Quite right.

It is also sad that the young woman suffers too. Maybe not right away, but the abortion will affect her life later, physically and emotionally. Sometimes they become infertile, or they feel deep guilt or depression. The woman and the baby are both victims of abortion.

The only people who benefit from abortion are the owners of the abortion clinics. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$....

 

[Cheri]

What about the women who are raped? What if they were raped and can't afford to keep the baby. What can they do?

They can give the babies up for adoption.

It is commonly that rape victims who become pregnant would naturally want abortions,This child was brought into their lives by a horrible act, which raped. the same percentage believe abortion would be just another act of violence against their bodies and their children, decide to keep the baby or give it up for adoption. but either way sometime people judge you if you get abortion when you were raped or not get abortion when you were raped.