do you think downs sydromes should be in Deaf school deaf unit?

[CSign]

And indeed CSign, if you had real honest to god experiance actually TEACHING you would most likely understand. It seems to be a case of theory seeming to be better then the actual practice.

What makes you, or anyone else think they know better? Every situation is different. The fact that I'm not a teacher doesn't make it so that I don't "understand". I know how it works. I understand the point about resources. That doesn't absolve the district or LEA of their responsibilities. If they need to bring in more resources, then that's what they need to do.

 

[Jane B.]

And indeed CSign, if you had real honest to god experiance actually TEACHING you would most likely understand. It seems to be a case of theory seeming to be better then the actual practice.

Do you, deafdyke, have the teaching experience you refer to? We keep getting advice from you but not what your current experience is that you base that advice on.

 

[deafdyke]

What are you even talking about?!?!

Why don't we stop lumping students with cognitive challenges in one group? Is it such a difficult thing to understand that perhaps students have varying needs and abilities, and would benefit from mainstream placement, even if for only part of the day?

You really need to stop acting like you know how parents think. You don't.

No it's not that hard to understand......But the overwhelming majority of cognitively disabled students literally are MENTALLY limited. It does not mean that they should stay in a self contained classroom with one of those "fun" worksheets that they give out when there's a sub. They deserve functional academics.....and at least fourth grade level. I have said YES, there ARE some nereologically scattered kids who may be able to benifit from part time mainstreaming. But I am ALSO saying that the majority of those kids tend to be kind of rare. Even mild kids can and do significently lag behind normal IQ kids. Even nereologically scattered kids can and do significently lag behind non LD kids. That doesn't mean they shouldn't be partially mainstreamed in some subjects. But say..... let me give an example. I know of a person (hearing) who is on par with math, but with English will say stuff like "I am quiet on outside only talk when im needed. Only talk in one word outside. Yes and no." This girl was mostly mainstreamed and never really got the proper intense written English instruction that would have allowed her to have at least functional written English. She's a community college graduate.
They do deserve functional academic education, and many if not most of them WILL be able to acheive that. But we're talking about a population that does 2nd grade worksheets in 10th grade, or at most 4th grade worksheets. In other words a population that very easily falls through the cracks and or would be completely LOST in a mainstream classroom.
And yes, I do know what parents think. I interact with them every single day. My syndrome actually does have a lot of kids who are Deaf special needs. Some parents are AWESOME with reconizing that their kid is DSN, and are happy with a functional academic education. But other parents seem to think that mainstreaming/inclusion is going to create miricles or still think that mainstreaming/inclusion is some wonderful glorious utopia with no downsides.

 

[deafdyke]

What makes you, or anyone else think they know better? Every situation is different. The fact that I'm not a teacher doesn't make it so that I don't "understand". I know how it works. I understand the point about resources. That doesn't absolve the district or LEA of their responsibilities. If they need to bring in more resources, then that's what they need to do.

Um CSign, yes it does. You have never seen the theory in actual PRACTICE. I and other people have actually personally WITNESSED the theory of inclusion in practice. (both as teachers and students) You seem to be operating under a warm and fuzzy approach, when it comes to inclusion. Unfortunatly the world is not a Best Buddies commerical. That's pretty much what we're saying. Heck even kids with severe learnign disabilties may not exactly belong in the mainstream. Not to mention that learning is a lot more then classroom academics...........incidental learning and friendships and things like that.....
I've been staying with a family, where the mother IS an experainced special ed teacher. Her daughter is one of those kids who is high functioning academicly but still has a lot of issues socially. (a lot like someone with Aspergers) My friend says that she thinks that inclusion is one of those theories that sound better in theory then in practice, and usually what happens is that kids fall through the cracks. This is a woman who has been teaching for over 25 years.
My friends who are teachers (both sped and inclusion) both say they keep on seeing the same stuff that they saw back in the day...and they see the same types of parents who want an inclusive placement so that they can pretend their kid is "normal"

 

[CSign]

Um CSign, yes it does. You have never seen the theory in actual PRACTICE. I and other people have actually personally WITNESSED the theory of inclusion in practice. (both as teachers and students) You seem to be operating under a warm and fuzzy approach, when it comes to inclusion. Unfortunatly the world is not a Best Buddies commerical. That's pretty much what we're saying. Heck even kids with severe learnign disabilties may not exactly belong in the mainstream. Not to mention that learning is a lot more then classroom academics...........incidental learning and friendships and things like that.....
I've been staying with a family, where the mother IS an experainced special ed teacher. Her daughter is one of those kids who is high functioning academicly but still has a lot of issues socially. (a lot like someone with Aspergers) My friend says that she thinks that inclusion is one of those theories that sound better in theory then in practice, and usually what happens is that kids fall through the cracks. This is a woman who has been teaching for over 25 years.
My friends who are teachers (both sped and inclusion) both say they keep on seeing the same stuff that they saw back in the day...and they see the same types of parents who want an inclusive placement so that they can pretend their kid is "normal"

Oh good God.

You haven't the faintest clue what I know, nor do you have the faintest clue what you are taking about. Contrary to what you like to believe, I don't take a "warm and fuzzy" approach. I look at each individual child, and I don't limit them based on a label.

Just because you know somebody who knows somebody who read something on the Internet, or you know somebody who knows somebody who met parents who want to think "their kid is normal"...

I mean, seriously?

Your comments hold no weight, nor do they provide any substantive information. Give it a rest. Really.

 

[Grummer]

Oh good God.

You haven't the faintest clue what I know, nor do you have the faintest clue what you are taking about. Contrary to what you like to believe, I don't take a "warm and fuzzy" approach. I look at each individual child, and I don't limit them based on a label.

Just because you know somebody who knows somebody who read something on the Internet, or you know somebody who knows somebody who met parents who want to think "their kid is normal"...

I mean, seriously?

Your comments hold no weight, nor do they provide any substantive information. Give it a rest. Really.

maybe YOU should give it a rest,instead of mocking
DD, lay off the rant, i mean Csign is one of the few who are listening-impaired typs dont bother.

and last thing, there ARE some research finding available thatone will support Deafdyke's view, but only one have to find it, and finding it can be quite a task in itself because it is 'seemingly offensive or unpolitically correct' or whatever the other reasons...

I will say that agree with many of DD's opinions but to have it well argued, more research findings in that area is sorely needed....but right now, the evaluative research are geared towards inclusion since it is a 'modern view' of handling disability 'enjoys' a kind of popularity due to its economical factor, and it just needs more work and time to highlight its downfalls. sadly its sparse at this point which doesnt help Deafdykes' argument.
that's all i will say. im not gonna bother rant on, maybe DD you should channel your energy into actually finding journal articles and study it, that way you have more power to the argument.

 

[deafdyke]

Oh good God.

You haven't the faintest clue what I know, nor do you have the faintest clue what you are taking about. Contrary to what you like to believe, I don't take a "warm and fuzzy" approach. I look at each individual child, and I don't limit them based on a label.

Just because you know somebody who knows somebody who read something on the Internet, or you know somebody who knows somebody who met parents who want to think "their kid is normal"...

I mean, seriously?

Your comments hold no weight, nor do they provide any substantive information. Give it a rest. Really.

CSign, sorry but you do have a warm and fuzzy approach. My experiances are NOT based off of something, someone read off the net. They are based on what my real life friends actually SEE and witness in real life!!!!! I see the parents desperate for any hope that their kid will have a "normal" life and " normal" functioning............... It's exactly like oralism for dhh kids.....
Oh really? You're the one who was all " I don't like giving a kid a functioning level label, but she's at a moderate level" You're basicly not even admitting to yourself that mentally disabled kids have MENTAL limitations...........and very often its a lot more then just pure cognitive issues too.

 

[deafdyke]

maybe YOU should give it a rest,instead of mocking

and last thing, there ARE some research finding available thatone will support Deafdyke's view, but only one have to find it, and finding it can be quite a task in itself because it is 'seemingly offensive or unpolitically correct' or whatever the other reasons...

I will say that agree with many of DD's opinions but to have it well argued, more research findings in that area is sorely needed....but right now, the evaluative research are geared towards inclusion since it is a 'modern view' of handling disability 'enjoys' a kind of popularity due to its economical factor, and it just needs more work and time to highlight its downfalls. sadly its sparse at this point which doesnt help Deafdykes' argument.
that's all i will say. im not gonna bother rant on, maybe DD you should channel your energy into actually finding journal articles and study it, that way you have more power to the argument.

Inclusion as a WHOLESALE educational philsophy needs to be banned from the land. That's what I don't like about it....that its WHOLESALE and pushed as good for everyone .

 

[shel90]

CSign, sorry but you do have a warm and fuzzy approach. My experiances are NOT based off of something, someone read off the net. They are based on what my real life friends actually SEE and witness in real life!!!!! I see the parents desperate for any hope that their kid will have a "normal" life and " normal" functioning............... It's exactly like oralism for dhh kids.....
Oh really? You're the one who was all " I don't like giving a kid a functioning level label, but she's at a moderate level" You're basicly not even admitting to yourself that mentally disabled kids have MENTAL limitations...........and very often its a lot more then just pure cognitive issues too.

DD, why not take Grummer's advice? It is a waste of space replying to CSign trying to convince her. Best to let it go.

 

[KarissaMann05]

Personally, I never use "AGBad" or "AGHell" because I see no credit to use.

 

[AlleyCat]

Personally, I never use "AGBad" or "AGHell" because I see no credit to use.

I agree. Intentionally altering names and purposely misspelling stuff drives no point home. It just undermines the credibility of those using those words.

 

[KarissaMann05]

I may not see eye to eye but I wouldn't make up some non-exist words or names to insult people. That defeats on purpose for credibility and discussion.

 

[Grummer]

^^ yup

 

[inmate23]

my computer ate my rely so heres a shorten 1

I have never met the child in question but know who you are talking about. I believe in the Voice Thru Your Hands method

Her mother freely admits that her kids are the reason she set up voice thru your hands and thats why there are no services for adults :roll:

The school wanted to place the child in the Retard Room(what are those classes called?) The family fought this. The school has Deaf Unit, Retard Room, Mainstream education on offer.

The child has a BAHA

If the child cant sign as you say. Yes she should be in the Retard Room

Grummer Is the real issue here that VTYH's offers non Deafies NZSL?

 

[ecp]

I'm responding to the original arguments-
A deaf or hard of hearing student who also has Down's syndrome is absolutely entitled to services provided by deaf educators BUT the reality is that persons with Down's syndrome have significant mental impairments that should be addressed in a specialized setting that takes their individual cognitive abilities and their hearing loss into account.

I honestly think that deaf and hard of hearing students should be challenged as much as possible because most of the students absolutely CAN be at or above grade level if the bar is set high enough.
At my elementary and middle school, the deaf students were praised for being able to do simple addition as 5th graders and for being able to read a paragraph without help.

The bar needs to be set high for deaf and hard of hearing students.

 

[shel90]

I'm responding to the original arguments-
A deaf or hard of hearing student who also has Down's syndrome is absolutely entitled to services provided by deaf educators BUT the reality is that persons with Down's syndrome have significant mental impairments that should be addressed in a specialized setting that takes their individual cognitive abilities and their hearing loss into account.

I honestly think that deaf and hard of hearing students should be challenged as much as possible because most of the students absolutely CAN be at or above grade level if the bar is set high enough.
At my elementary and middle school, the deaf students were praised for being able to do simple addition as 5th graders and for being able to read a paragraph without help.

The bar needs to be set high for deaf and hard of hearing students.

totally agree..

 

[Grummer]

I have never met the child in question but know who you are talking about. I believe in the Voice Thru Your Hands method

Her mother freely admits that her kids are the reason she set up voice thru your hands and thats why there are no services for adults :roll:

The school wanted to place the child in the Retard Room(what are those classes called?) The family fought this. The school has Deaf Unit, Retard Room, Mainstream education on offer.

The child has a BAHA

If the child cant sign as you say. Yes she should be in the Retard Room

[B]Grummer Is the real issue here that VTYH's offers non Deafies [/B]NZSL?

yes, because principally, it is supposed to be Deaf people to teach sign, not hearing.

Also, if you read back to earlier parts of this thread Deafdyke has explained it well that parent of Downs (who are also deaf) are in denial of having a Downs, as it is 'much better for them to think of their child as 'only Deaf' and the bitch brought alot of problems to the Deaf community, embarrassment and controlling are some of these, but deeper problem is that, what sort of message does it gives to hearing society about Deaf? are we really this slow? and why is that Down in Deaf unit only to communicate but still can't read ESPECIALLY at High school levels, apparently no better than a 5 yo hearing and that girl is now 13 or 14...its a disgrace.

I DON'T LIKE Inclusion as a philosophy, it is NOT real, it is NOT practical, it is NOT right and finally it is NOT being nice, it is more about being in denial.

People got to get REAL about it...and the worst thing about the VTYH is they are WASTING state funding on some useless bullshit which otherwise could have be put towards Deaf professionals to Deaf students whose are in isolation around the country, that would get far more results for the money, and at same time have that Downs ( esp the low functioning ones) placed back in the special classes where there is no real difference in outcomes, except they are under proper supervision.

 

[inmate23]

yes, because principally, it is supposed to be Deaf people to teach sign, not hearing..

So how are Hearing people meant to learn sign? Or are all Deafies meant to have interpreters everytime you leave the house?

and why is that Down in Deaf unit only to communicate but still can't read ESPECIALLY at High school levels, apparently no better than a 5 yo hearing and that girl is now 13 or 14...its a disgrace. .

If shes NEEDS Specialist DS education I whole heartily agree get her OUT of the Deaf Unit

I DON'T LIKE Inclusion as a philosophy, it is NOT real, it is NOT practical, it is NOT right and finally it is NOT being nice, it is more about being in denial. .

Inclusion is an excuse not to resource kids properly plain and simple

People got to get REAL about it...and the worst thing about the VTYH is they are WASTING state funding on some useless bullshit which otherwise could have be put towards Deaf professionals to Deaf students whose are in isolation around the country, that would get far more results for the money,.

The VTYHs dictionary is a good reference guide for hearing parents of Deaf kids/Hearing people to use when learning NZSL as it is in alphabetical order like they expect

Personally I prefer the smartphone app as its with me all the time so haven't spent the money on the VTYHs dictionary

and at same time have that Downs ( esp the low functioning ones) placed back in the special classes where there is no real difference in outcomes, except they are under proper supervision.

special classes where there is no real difference in outcomes So the fact the child is Deaf and deserves access some level(probably best NOT in the class-room) of access to her culture doesn't matter to you?

I believe most of the current students at Van Asch are Low functioning/Struggling with school work/ alot were induced as CI failures as well as Deaf

 

[Grummer]

So how are Hearing people meant to learn sign? Or are all Deafies meant to have interpreters everytime you leave the house?

well, no hearing people can learn sign by going to NZSL classes run by Deafs..not them!...and its reallych up to the hearing people to motivate their want to learn NZSL just as much you can't force every NZers to learn Chinese (hope that doesnt happen)...in European MOST european countries have English as a strong second language, heck they even WATCH English-speaking TV programmes with NO subtitles (to their own home language ie French/Swede/Norwegian/Danish!!!!

If shes NEEDS Specialist DS education I whole heartily agree get her OUT of the Deaf Unit



Inclusion is an excuse not to resource kids properly plain and simple

^^ yes , agreed! its an excuse to cheap down everything

The VTYHs dictionary is a good reference guide for hearing parents of Deaf kids/Hearing people to use when learning NZSL as it is in alphabetical order like they expect

Personally I prefer the smartphone app as its with me all the time so haven't spent the money on the VTYHs dictionary

^^
BOLDED
I am shocked to learn VTYH has compiled a dictionary, it is NOT for them to do this!!, I do 'know' that the woman who 'found it/runs it' went and gatecrashed a Deaf Studies course and obtain the cert in Deaf studies, just to get excuses...
good for you to use the smartphone app...again i wonder 'who did this?'

special classes where there is no real difference in outcomes So the fact the child is Deaf and deserves access some level(probably best NOT in the class-room) of access to her culture doesn't matter to you?

I believe most of the current students at Van Asch are Low functioning/Struggling with school work/ alot were induced as CI failures as well as Deaf

yes, this indeed gives a bad message to hearing people about Deaf culture, because with this 'fallback attitudes' implies Deaf culture is like a broken language 'fit' only for 'failures', like its not 'fit' for way of life as in Being Deaf.
Like Being DEAF is NOT the same as being Linguistically DEAD.
But it seems to be so for the VAC administrators, Special Education Services, and associated BOT's members,etc etc etc

 

[caz12]

i been to NZ and see first hand how special needs are treated which is very good,considerably better than indigionous Marori treated Proberly more special needs among that group than rest of population and what NZ doing about it,i would say not alot.Chance are white middle class Downs getting better education than above average intelligent marori...NZ hang head it shame at times