Do I Understand?

[Cloggy]

Which is it cloggy...is she deaf or is she hearing. You are talking out of both sides of your mouth. Her statemetn claims that she is denying that she is deaf. Where does she get that idea, daddy?

Mummie, mummie, such anger...

I never said she was hearing. You should read the posts and comments correctly.
I have allways said, "She's deaf, and she can hear."

Back to the topic "Do I understand.?"
Do you realise you are quoting the words of deaf a 5-year old? She just said "I am not deaf." and you are making an issue out of it?
What's the matter with you.??
Not even capable of enjoying a deaf child that tells her sister in her own words that she can hear?

Really sad. In your focus for ASL you loose sight of the most important part of the whole issue.... The person that is deaf.

Why can you not be happy with a child that is thriving on speech.?? You are allready assuming that she will fail in the end. Is THAT how you approach children with CI ? because if this is the case, I hope any parent reading this will keep the child away from Ohio...

If you claim that you "know deaf persons" - you might want to take a positive approach. Enjoy the child that is thriving on speech, and support it. And when it's obvious that more can be done, then give that to the child.
But to use a statement like that and assume that she denies her deafness.... WOW... that's really screwed up..

Again.... when she says "I am not deaf" - I interpret it as "I can hear"..... Is that completely impossible for you?

 

[MyBlueEyes]

I love reading your posts.... you really mean "keep fighting and pass the popcorn". Just kidding,

 

[shel90]

Speaking of whether people understand or not, I went to my husband's work picnic the other day. Met many of his coworkers..did my best to chat with everyone as much as I can but it was hard with needing my eyes to watch my son. Anyways..one lady came up to me and asked me if I was born deaf. I say yea and she asked me what do I think of getting a CI. I said, I did think of it a long time ago but decided not to. She asked me why not. I said cuz I am comfortable with who I am and my deafness. She then started a tirade of comments about deaf people and CIs. Basically she was saying that she doesn't understand why don't all deaf people get CIs and how there should be a law forcing us to get the CI surgery. I didn't want to blow up but I was boiling mad. I told her that many deaf people r happy as they are and then she said that it is stupid cuz we aren't doing anything to improve ourselves. I asked her what did she mean by that and she said all we do is isolate ourselves, refuse to use English, refuse to learn how to talk like normal people, and cost society a lot of money with needing Terps and CARTs.....I told her that if I was isolating myself, I wouldn't be here at the picnic interacting with u or everyone else right? She said that I didn't need to be a smart mouth about it (Of course whenever I make a good point, I always get that "don't be a smart mouth or smart ass" remark from people who don't know much about deafness). So, I told her that I didn't appreciate all these comments and to kindly leave me alone and she said she was going to start a petition to get a law passed for all deaf people to get CIs. I was like ok whatever and good luck and told my husband what she said. He reported her to his boss for being rude but his boss said she had the right to voice her opinions and that she agreed with her. I told my husband is that how the gerneral hearing population feels and he said sort of cuz he has had people telling him that he should encourage me to get a CI so I can live a better life.

Now that really sucks if that's the impression people have about CIs..that they will solve all of our problems. Like having money solves all problems and we all know it is not true.

Big time lack of understanding from that lady. Just wanted to share with all of u the lack of empathy that some hearing people get. And some people wonder why many deaf people want nothing to do with the hearing world. With that kind of attitude, I wouldn't but I am not gonna let that stop me.

 

[Oddball]

Jillio, even though you have a Deaf son, I believe that you are trying to understand how Deaf community addresses their issues such as CI, sign language, Deaf pride, etc. I think you as a hearing person who is trying to figure out why Deaf community in general try to convince hearing people which Deaf children need to use different tools rather than just getting oral approach to learn. It takes a long time for a hearing person to understand how Deaf community feels about the approach in negative way. Stigma, oppression, so on. Same goes for Jewish people during WWII which Nazi tried to wipe out them in order to make up for Aryan people. Same concept. I applaud you for your effort into getting involved with Deaf community unlike those hearing people don't bother getting involved at all.

As a Deaf person, I strongly believe that Deaf/HOH children need to use different tools to learn how to read/write on their own rather than using just one approach which it will not work well with them.

I can relate to Shel so much because I grew up in oral school and I struggled to learn everything which I need to know. I went through self abuse, mental abuse, psychological abuse, and physical abuse. I even disliked the authority figures at that dreadful elementary/HS. Even though I graduate from HS, college, and University, I love to learn more. My writing skills are not great, mind you because I am Deaf and knew that oral approach wont work well for me. Sign Language or total communication will work well for me, so I can learn faster than I was in elementary/HS. Because of that stupid approach, I had to repeat the grade once or twice years ago. It was fucking silly. With using different tools, I could skip the grade years ago, but it did not happen anyway. My speech is not that great either, but I don't care anyway. I prefer ASL than speaking in my deaf voice.

For those narrow minded people, I can't believe how ignorant of you to think the Deaf children can speak well or act superior than less fortunate Deaf children with less resources. When I read their blatant comments, I was being turned off immediately. I hope some day, their children will tell their parents bluntly that they realize that sign language is the important key to increase their knowledge. Believe me, it will happen because I hear alot from them for years. Watch out.

I personally believe that getting a quality of education is more important than practicing speech, talking, etc like a parrot. It is waste time for Deaf individuals with their poor speech skills. If a Deaf person can't speak well like hearing, don't worry about that...just focus on education which it is more important than minicing like a parrot.

That's my two cents. If you don't like my opinions, then STFU.

 

[Gamer12]

For those narrow minded people, I can't believe how ignorant of you to think the Deaf children can speak well or act superior than less fortunate Deaf children with less resources. When I read their blatant comments, I was being turned off immediately. I hope some day, their children will tell their parents bluntly that they realize that sign language is the important key to increase their knowledge. Believe me, it will happen because I hear alot from them for years. Watch out.

I personally believe that getting a quality of education is more important than practicing speech, talking, etc like a parrot. It is waste time for Deaf individuals with their poor speech skills. If a Deaf person can't speak well like hearing, don't worry about that...just focus on education which it is more important than minicing like a parrot.

That's my two cents. If you don't like my opinions, then STFU.

cloggy, why did you troll in here?

 

[jazzy]

Speaking of whether people understand or not, I went to my husband's work picnic the other day. Met many of his coworkers..did my best to chat with everyone as much as I can but it was hard with needing my eyes to watch my son. Anyways..one lady came up to me and asked me if I was born deaf. I say yea and she asked me what do I think of getting a CI. I said, I did think of it a long time ago but decided not to. She asked me why not. I said cuz I am comfortable with who I am and my deafness. She then started a tirade of comments about deaf people and CIs. Basically she was saying that she doesn't understand why don't all deaf people get CIs and how there should be a law forcing us to get the CI surgery. I didn't want to blow up but I was boiling mad. I told her that many deaf people r happy as they are and then she said that it is stupid cuz we aren't doing anything to improve ourselves. I asked her what did she mean by that and she said all we do is isolate ourselves, refuse to use English, refuse to learn how to talk like normal people, and cost society a lot of money with needing Terps and CARTs.....I told her that if I was isolating myself, I wouldn't be here at the picnic interacting with u or everyone else right? She said that I didn't need to be a smart mouth about it (Of course whenever I make a good point, I always get that "don't be a smart mouth or smart ass" remark from people who don't know much about deafness). So, I told her that I didn't appreciate all these comments and to kindly leave me alone and she said she was going to start a petition to get a law passed for all deaf people to get CIs. I was like ok whatever and good luck and told my husband what she said. He reported her to his boss for being rude but his boss said she had the right to voice her opinions and that she agreed with her. I told my husband is that how the gerneral hearing population feels and he said sort of cuz he has had people telling him that he should encourage me to get a CI so I can live a better life.

Now that really sucks if that's the impression people have about CIs..that they will solve all of our problems. Like having money solves all problems and we all know it is not true.

Big time lack of understanding from that lady. Just wanted to share with all of u the lack of empathy that some hearing people get. And some people wonder why many deaf people want nothing to do with the hearing world. With that kind of attitude, I wouldn't but I am not gonna let that stop me.

Ouch!!! This lady does not have any idea what she was talking about. My friend is getting CI this week and he told me that CI won't work on me because both of my ears were way past repair even CI will not make any sound in my brain. So how can she try to pass law to require all deaf to get CI when some profoundly deaf people does not benefit from CI. Not every deaf can hear with CI. I am one of those unfortunely and your right it boils my blood if they say such things to me. Funny thing I get to know my 450 customers and they are learning to deal with me and I also learn to deal with them even some of them does not speak english. I adapted and never was isolated in this hearing world.

 

[jillio]

Thanks for your concern, and those cases you mentioned are know.
Menigitis is often also the cause for deafness, and that is in case the child doesn't die. So in that respect, with the additional awarenes for this, children with CI are probably less likely to die from it than other children. So CI might actually have prevented menigitis-related deaths !!

What is also know is deaths of deaf people due to their lack of hearing. HAve you ever heared of these?
In a way, there will allways be risks.

Cloggy, you really need to take a course in logic.

How has deafness ever been responsible, directly, for someone's death? And to claimthat CI has prevented meningitis related deaths is absolutely absurd. You are really grasping at straws now. Lets not let this thread lapse into absurdity. Discuss the issues with thought and credibility, if you are capable of doing so.

And, you opinion on my understanding of deafnes/Deafness is moot, as you are not deaf of Deaf.....and apparently, neither is your daughter.

 

[jillio]

Jillio, even though you have a Deaf son, I believe that you are trying to understand how Deaf community addresses their issues such as CI, sign language, Deaf pride, etc. I think you as a hearing person who is trying to figure out why Deaf community in general try to convince hearing people which Deaf children need to use different tools rather than just getting oral approach to learn. It takes a long time for a hearing person to understand how Deaf community feels about the approach in negative way. Stigma, oppression, so on. Same goes for Jewish people during WWII which Nazi tried to wipe out them in order to make up for Aryan people. Same concept. I applaud you for your effort into getting involved with Deaf community unlike those hearing people don't bother getting involved at all.

As a Deaf person, I strongly believe that Deaf/HOH children need to use different tools to learn how to read/write on their own rather than using just one approach which it will not work well with them.

I can relate to Shel so much because I grew up in oral school and I struggled to learn everything which I need to know. I went through self abuse, mental abuse, psychological abuse, and physical abuse. I even disliked the authority figures at that dreadful elementary/HS. Even though I graduate from HS, college, and University, I love to learn more. My writing skills are not great, mind you because I am Deaf and knew that oral approach wont work well for me. Sign Language or total communication will work well for me, so I can learn faster than I was in elementary/HS. Because of that stupid approach, I had to repeat the grade once or twice years ago. It was fucking silly. With using different tools, I could skip the grade years ago, but it did not happen anyway. My speech is not that great either, but I don't care anyway. I prefer ASL than speaking in my deaf voice.

For those narrow minded people, I can't believe how ignorant of you to think the Deaf children can speak well or act superior than less fortunate Deaf children with less resources. When I read their blatant comments, I was being turned off immediately. I hope some day, their children will tell their parents bluntly that they realize that sign language is the important key to increase their knowledge. Believe me, it will happen because I hear alot from them for years. Watch out.

I personally believe that getting a quality of education is more important than practicing speech, talking, etc like a parrot. It is waste time for Deaf individuals with their poor speech skills. If a Deaf person can't speak well like hearing, don't worry about that...just focus on education which it is more important than minicing like a parrot.

That's my two cents. If you don't like my opinions, then STFU.

Would 21 years be long enough to learn? And, I didn't live throught the Halocaust, either, but as my mother's side of my family is German Jew, it is something that was very much apart of my life, and from speaking with my relatives, I was able to gain closer understanding from their first hand experience than someone who had never talked to a survivor fromthe Halocaust would have.

I just wanted to clarify that. And the rest of your post, I agree with totally. I am already against any approach that does not use every skill the dea child has to develop educational skill.......and have been since I saw what went on in oral programs after my son was diagnosed.

 

[highlands]

http://www.alldeaf.com/hearing-aids-cochlear-implants/29332-your-final-warning-please-read.html

 

[jillio]

Mummie, mummie, such anger...

I never said she was hearing. You should read the posts and comments correctly.

Cloggy, you have said your daughter is not deaf any number of times. But when called on it, you always attempt to backpedal.
I have allways said, "She's deaf, and she can hear."

And you also claim that even though deaf with CI function at the level of HOH, they are in a subcategory by themselves, and therefore do not have need of visual language.

Back to the topic "Do I understand.?"
Do you realise you are quoting the words of deaf a 5-year old? She just said "I am not deaf." and you are making an issue out of it?

Do you realize that you are the ones that posted the quote from your daughter to beginwith. Why are you making such an issue of it? Did you honestly believe that you would come to a deaf message board with a story about a deaf child using a CI who now claims to not be deaf would receive support? The words may have come from a child, but the attitude that cause her to speak those words have come from audist adults.
What's the matter with you.??

What's the matter with me? Why nothing, except an extreme lack of tolerance for those who refuse to learn, and then attempt to spread their ignorance all over the place.
Not even capable of enjoying a deaf child that tells her sister in her own words that she can hear?

According to you, cloggy, what she said was "Lotte are not deaf." Not only is that statement a very telling portrait of the attitude toward deafness that she is being taught, it is also grammatically in correct and evidence of language delay.

Really sad. In your focus for ASL you loose sight of the most important part of the whole issue.... The person that is deaf.

Again, this discussion is not a discussion about ASL or about CI, even though you insist on taking it down that road. And yes,the deaf personis the most important part of the equation. And that is the part that you continually leave out. It is obvious that the person is the last thing you ever consider. Speech and hearing is your priority....no matter what harm the audist attitudes you hold have done to any number of deaf people.

Why can you not be happy with a child that is thriving on speech.?? You are allready assuming that she will fail in the end. Is THAT how you approach children with CI ?
No, cloggy, that is not how I approach childrenwith CI..It is how I approach the parents of children with CI who go around claiming that their child is not deaf and that the CI has solved all the issues related to being deaf.
because if this is the case, I hope any parent reading this will keep the child away from Ohio...

And that post will be reported for you constant trolling. I have requested that you cease withthe perosnal insults, and obviously, you do not have the maturity to do so.

If you claim that you "know deaf persons" - you might want to take a positive approach. Enjoy the child that is thriving on speech, and support it. And when it's obvious that more can be done, then give that to the child.
But to use a statement like that and assume that she denies her deafness.... WOW... that's really screwed up..I do take a positive apporach cloggy. I positively believe in giving every child full and complete access to language in order to increase their academic and social functioning.

Again.... when she says "I am not deaf" - I interpret it as "I can hear"..... Is that completely impossible for you?

Yes, cloggy, your interpretations are often way off base. If you would stop trying to interpret what everyone else is saying, and just READ OR LISTEN TO WHAT EVERYONE ELSE IS SAYING, there is a strong possibility that you might actually learn something in your lifetime.

 

[Tousi]

cloggy, why did you troll in here?

All ignoramuses, including myself are allowed here so let's be civil.

 

[jillio]

All ignoramuses, including myself are allowed here so let's be civil.

 

[Cloggy]

Cloggy, you have said your daughter is not deaf any number of times. But when called on it, you always attempt to backpedal.

Sorry, but that is in your head.
I have never said that - much as you would love to believe it..

And you also claim that even though deaf with CI function at the level of HOH, they are in a subcategory by themselves, and therefore do not have need of visual language.

Again... that is in your head.
I have said that Lotte chooses not to use visual language. I have never claimed that sign is out of the question when CI is used.
I have allway said that communication is the main thing...
But don't take my word for it... prove me wrong..

Do you realise yourself that you are so focused on Deaf identity and ASL that you lose perspective. With you it's no longer about the child, no longer about what works..... It is all about you being right. No matter what.

According to you, cloggy, what she said was "Lotte are not deaf." Not only is that statement a very telling portrait of the attitude toward deafness that she is being taught, it is also grammatically in correct and evidence of language delay..

I did say that. I didn't even correct her spelling...
And it doesn't tell anything about what attitude is being taught, it is her telling her sister that she can hear.
And about "grammatically in correct and evidence of language delay..." it is not "in correct" but "incorrect", and yes - she has a language delay....
A deaf girl with a language delay... about 1-1/2 year... not bad for a little girl that hasn't heared for 2+ years...
Wonderful, won't you agree!

Life is so much better looking at it from a positive point of view... Try it Jillio. All you need to do is turn around.... YOu will still be at the same place, but the view is magnificent!!

 

[Cloggy]

.......How has deafness ever been responsible, directly, for someone's death? ..

EH.. "Deaf girls walks on the rails and does not hear warning-signals from train..." because she was ... deaf?

And regarding menigites...
What percetage of children die from menigites? (Children of which most parents are not aware of menigites..)
What percentage of children with CI die of menigites? (Children of which most parents are very aware of menigites..)

 

[jillio]

Sorry, but that is in your head.
I have never said that - much as you would love to believe it..

I'm not the only personthat has read your posts that continue to say, "with CI, my daughter is hearing." And I am not the only poster who has corrected you in your assumption. Many people have made the same statement to you as have I.....your daughter is not hearing, she is deaf with a CI.

Again... that is in your head.
I have said that Lotte chooses not to use visual language.

Is hse exposed to it? I thought that you were sending her to an oral program for preschool. Lack of exposure kind of nullifies the choice factor, don't you think?I have never claimed that sign is out of the question when CI is used.

And I have never claimed that CI is out of the question when sign is used. So what exactly is your problem?
I have allway said that communication is the main thing...

Yes, communication is the main thing. Why are you refusing to listen?
But don't take my word for it... prove me wrong..

Do you realise yourself that you are so focused on Deaf identity and ASL that you lose perspective. With you it's no longer about the child, no longer about what works..... It is all about you being right. No matter what.

I did say that. I didn't even correct her spelling...

Did she write it out? Or did she type the post for you? What spelling?
And it doesn't tell anything about what attitude is being taught, it is her telling her sister that she can hear.
And the fact that she would explain I can hear byu saying Lotte are not deaf would be indicative of the attitude that she is learning.

And about "grammatically in correct and evidence of language delay..." it is not "in correct" but "incorrect", and yes - she has a language delay....
A deaf girl with a language delay... about 1-1/2 year... not bad for a little girl that hasn't heared for 2+ years...
Wonderful, won't you agree!
And if she is indeed, language delyed,why is it that you insist that she doesn't need visual support to make up those delays? Why is it that you say, on the one hand "Lotte is choosing not to use sign." and claim that it is her choice to make, yet when someone says that CI is also the child's choice, you tell them that they are taking choice away fromthe child and making decisions for them. If a childhas the right to choose not to use sign (provided that they are exposed to it and therefore have the choice to make why is it not all right for a child to choose whether they want a CI, as well? What , CI is a parent's choice, but linguistic environment is not? You are very confused, cloggy.
And again, it is heard, not heared.


Life is so much better looking at it from a positive point of view... Try it Jillio. All you need to do is turn around.... YOu will still be at the same place, but the view is magnificent!!

Oh, but cloggy I do have a positive view. Much more positive than you yourself, but I would not expect you to understand that. It is quite obvious that you are incapable.

 

[pek1]

Speaking of whether people understand or not, I went to my husband's work picnic the other day. Met many of his coworkers..did my best to chat with everyone as much as I can but it was hard with needing my eyes to watch my son. Anyways..one lady came up to me and asked me if I was born deaf. I say yea and she asked me what do I think of getting a CI. I said, I did think of it a long time ago but decided not to. She asked me why not. I said cuz I am comfortable with who I am and my deafness. She then started a tirade of comments about deaf people and CIs. Basically she was saying that she doesn't understand why don't all deaf people get CIs and how there should be a law forcing us to get the CI surgery. I didn't want to blow up but I was boiling mad. I told her that many deaf people r happy as they are and then she said that it is stupid cuz we aren't doing anything to improve ourselves. I asked her what did she mean by that and she said all we do is isolate ourselves, refuse to use English, refuse to learn how to talk like normal people, and cost society a lot of money with needing Terps and CARTs.....I told her that if I was isolating myself, I wouldn't be here at the picnic interacting with u or everyone else right? She said that I didn't need to be a smart mouth about it (Of course whenever I make a good point, I always get that "don't be a smart mouth or smart ass" remark from people who don't know much about deafness). So, I told her that I didn't appreciate all these comments and to kindly leave me alone and she said she was going to start a petition to get a law passed for all deaf people to get CIs. I was like ok whatever and good luck and told my husband what she said. He reported her to his boss for being rude but his boss said she had the right to voice her opinions and that she agreed with her. I told my husband is that how the gerneral hearing population feels and he said sort of cuz he has had people telling him that he should encourage me to get a CI so I can live a better life.

Now that really sucks if that's the impression people have about CIs..that they will solve all of our problems. Like having money solves all problems and we all know it is not true.

Big time lack of understanding from that lady. Just wanted to share with all of u the lack of empathy that some hearing people get. And some people wonder why many deaf people want nothing to do with the hearing world. With that kind of attitude, I wouldn't but I am not gonna let that stop me.

Wow! Well, if she goes around getting a petition like that, shel, then we should get a petition started that bans stupid people from having children! You weren't being a smart mouth, you answered her questions. She was the one that was a smart mouth, not to mention harrassing you and asking questions and making comments that were none of her business. Keep your distance from her in the future, shel. Another thing you could have asked is how deaf people cost money, and go into how much education you have and what your degrees are. Assuming she is not a college grad, that should shut her up.

 

[R2D2]

Inthe thread, District Files Appeal Against Deaf Student, post # 1401, it was said that I do not seek to understand the deaf community at all. I replied that I would leave that question to the deaf members of AD to answer.

So here's the question....do I, as a hearing person, attempt to gain an understanding of deafness from the deaf perspective?

Honest answers, please, as I consider this a learning experience.

For me the broader deaf community (hence the name of this website ALLDEAF) is diverse and as such, you get different circumstances, opinions, angles and viewpoints. Even within the signing community there is debate about different signing methods and approaches such as ASL, SEE, etc etc.
Diversity and debate is part of life and I see it also in other communities in which I participate.

So, I think that you represent the views of a section of the people here on AD, but not everyone since it's virtually impossible to be able to represent everyone in such a diverse community. I notice that you get a lot of positive feedback from those people but then there are others like myself who appreciate your passion and care for deaf children but would not agree with everything you say.

 

[Aspiring]

I really hate to ruin the argument (not to mention, I feel bad that I cannot contribute to the actual topic of this discussion) but I have to point a few things out.

Jillio, I don't know you very well but it seems like you are doing a great thing. However, everyone needs to get their facts straight.

First of all, here's the quote from Cloggy's blog about his daughter's remark:

Lotte's sister is putting butter on her bread.. and of course, Lotte also wants to have the butter, and is "demanding" it...
So, her sister says "Patience Lotte, do you hear me? You need to have patience!"
Whereupon Lotte says "Ja-Haaaa.., Lotte are not deaf !"

Second of all, the reason for the bad grammar might be due to the fact that English is not her first language. I think it's Dutch. So it might have nothing to do with a delay in language development.
....I see Cloggy said something about that... oh well

Oh, and Cloggy. Here's another miscommunication you should see:

I heard on a tv program talking about history of Deaf. There was a man (in 1920's or so) saying that if a deaf child has a voice then the child can be taught to speak.
And, inthe 1920's, oralism was the buzzword of the day.
Almost a decade later, and we are coming back to that antiquated idea, only now it is, if a child has CI, they can be made hearing and taught to speak. Same fallacy, different time period...........

Ah, so that's the time YOU live in.... I thought there was some different point of view...
I'm looking at it from the 21st century. You're still in the 20th... No wonder...

See, when Jillio mentioned the 1920's being big on oralism, it's because he was responding to someone using evidence from someone's opinion back in the 1920's.

And, finally, can we all please read our facts, stop having hissy fits, and get back to the original topic??

 

[Aspiring]

Oops. I ment to add under the first quote that it shows that she was saying, "Stop teasing me, I can hear you!" Not that she wasn't Deaf.

 

[jillio]

For me the broader deaf community (hence the name of this website ALLDEAF) is diverse and as such, you get different circumstances, opinions, angles and viewpoints. Even within the signing community there is debate about different signing methods and approaches such as ASL, SEE, etc etc.
Diversity and debate is part of life and I see it also in other communities in which I participate.

So, I think that you represent the views of a section of the people here on AD, but not everyone since it's virtually impossible to be able to represent everyone in such a diverse community. I notice that you get a lot of positive feedback from those people but then there are others like myself who appreciate your passion and care for deaf children but would not agree with everything you say.

I've never met anyone who agreed with everything I say, R2D2. That would be a bit of an unrealistic expectation! LOL