Church in Rosemount, MN

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Why did he establish his Church on his disciple Peter? Very simple answer. He knew that the Church needed an authority figure here on earth. He knew without establishing His Church and establishing the hierarchy, there would be chaos.

Luke 10:16
"Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me."

"It is wrong to focus spiritually on a man instead of Jesus." And who said anything about spiritually focusing on a man instead of Jesus??? Your words, not mine!
 
Daft said:
"Catholic Church is a buildin', not the Body of Christ. Catholic Church was NOT the body of Christ."

Someone just lost all credibility with this statement. The Catholic Church is a building. ROTFL

You don't get His ( Jesus ) point. Yes, that's what I said earlier that the Catholic Church is a buildin', but Jesus is NOT Catholic Church spiritually. He lives inside the true believers and the true believers are the temples spiritually. When the true believers die and go up in Heaven, they don't go to regular churches, right ? There's no churches in Heaven like Catholic Church or Baptist Church or whatever the name it is - nada. Only Jesus Christ is the Head of the Church - where the true believers can worship, praise, sing and fellowship with Him. Jesus has NO religion. He is God with NO names of any religion. Just Holy God.
 
I guess you don't get his point. He established His Church. He said it in His own words.

Matthew 16:18-19
"And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Jesus was very clear. He established His Church. He said "I will build my church". And to ignore his Church, he was very clear in Matthew 18:17 "...If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector". Once again, he said "he refuses to listen EVEN to the church".

There has always been people who have tried to negate Christ and his clear teachings of His Church. Christ warned Christians about them.

Romans 16:17-18
"I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who create dissensions and obstacles, in opposition to the teaching that you learned; avoid them. For such people do not serve our Lord Christ but their own appetites, and by fair and flattering speech they deceive the hearts of the innocent."


I think you are very confused as the meaning of "church" and of "building".
 
Daft said:
Matthew 16:18
"And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

The Church was built upon his disciple Peter and not on Himself.
Matthew 16:18
"And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

Jesus said, "You are Peter (Greek word Petros means "little piece of rock"), and upon this rock (Greek word petra means "bedrock" or foundation rock) I will build my church; and the gates of hell (death) shall not prevail (win) against it (the church).

Who is the Rock (Petra), the foundation bedrock? Jesus is the Rock. The church is built upon Jesus. Even Peter says it is Jesus:
1 Peter 2:3-8
3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious. 4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious, 5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. 6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. 7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, 8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
 
Daft said:
Why did he establish his Church on his disciple Peter? Very simple answer. He knew that the Church needed an authority figure here on earth. He knew without establishing His Church and establishing the hierarchy, there would be chaos.
Jesus is the authority.
The Holy Spirit indwelling each believer provides the common spirit of unity for the church. Artificial hierarchy is not necessary.
I don't like to criticize other people's religions in a negative way. I prefer to uplift Jesus and the Bible in a positive way. But you brought it up, so I can't ignore it. I would hardly say that the Catholic Church has prevented chaos! I would say it encouraged corruption, and tried to enforce its doctrines thru bloody force.

Luke 10:16
"Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me."
This is NOT a reference to the Catholic Church. Jesus was speaking to His 70 disciples that He sent out to preach. The Catholic Church didn't even exist at that time.

"It is wrong to focus spiritually on a man instead of Jesus." And who said anything about spiritually focusing on a man instead of Jesus??? Your words, not mine!
Peter was just a man. You look to him instead of Jesus. Therefore, your spiritual focus is on a man, not Jesus.
 
Daft said:
...Jesus was very clear. He established His Church.
Yes, Jesus was very clear. Jesus did establish His church. His church is all the people who have accepted Him as personal Savior. Nothing more, nothing less. Jesus is the One and only Head of His church. Period. Each believer's relationship is directly connected to Jesus. There is no other person or organization in between.

How does someone join His church? Each person simply repents his/her sins and accepts Jesus Christ as Savior. At that moment, the Holy Spirit enters the individual, and the person becomes a member of the church body. No rituals required. No works required. Membership is permanent.

Matthew 18:17 "...If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector". Once again, he said "he refuses to listen EVEN to the church".
Here is the context:
Jesus is explaining how to resolve dissent amongst believers.

Matthew 18:15-17

"15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. 16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. 17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. "

It is obvious in this passage that "the church" refers to the local congregation.
 
Matthew 18:15-17

"15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. 16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. 17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. "

It is obvious in this passage that "the church" refers to the local congregation.

It is very obvious that the Church was established with a teaching authority which supersedes that of an individual. The Church was to be viewed as a court of final appeal - the place where a final decision was to be made. This was done to protect the members of the Church from heresy, disunity, and sin. The Church has the authority to preach and teach in His name (Luke 10:16) so believers are protected from the theological or moral vagaries which result from "private interpretation" of Scripture.

Nowhere in this passage does one see the phrase "local congregation". In fact, nowhere in this passage are either the words "local" or "congregation" are used.

Show me the exact quotation in Scripture which says "His church is all the people who have accepted Him as personal Savior." Also, show the exact verse which states we need a "personal relationship with Jesus".

"Peter was just a man. You look to him instead of Jesus. Therefore, your spiritual focus is on a man, not Jesus."

Once again, you are putting words in another person's mouth. It was Jesus who established His Church on Peter - not I.

"At that moment, the Holy Spirit enters the individual, and the person becomes a member of the church body. No rituals required. No works required. Membership is permanent."

Of course, most of this is incorrect. Jesus instructs us to be baptised. We are to be reborn from above and with water. When baptism is discussed within Scripture, it also speaks of water. And membership is not permanent.

Romans 11:21-22
"For if God did not spare the natural branches, (perhaps) he will not spare you either. See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off."

Phl 2:12
"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."

"I don't like to criticize other people's religions in a negative way. I prefer to uplift Jesus and the Bible in a positive way. But you brought it up, so I can't ignore it. I would hardly say that the Catholic Church has prevented chaos! I would say it encouraged corruption, and tried to enforce its doctrines thru bloody force."

I have seen so much Catholic-bashing it isn't even funny. If you want to see chaos - you can look at Martin Luther. Since his split with the Church - look at how many different "denominations" have been formed. It has been established that about 10 new denominations are formed every week.

Christ had foretold that the Church will contain the good and the bad.

Matthew 13:24-30
"He proposed another parable to them. "The kingdom of heaven may be likened to a man who sowed good seed in his field. While everyone was asleep his enemy came and sowed weeds all through the wheat, and then went off. When the crop grew and bore fruit, the weeds appeared as well. The slaves of the householder came to him and said, 'Master, did you not sow good seed in your field? Where have the weeds come from?' He answered, 'An enemy has done this.' His slaves said to him, 'Do you want us to go and pull them up?' He replied, 'No, if you pull up the weeds you might uproot the wheat along with them. Let them grow together until harvest; then at harvest time I will say to the harvesters, "First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles for burning; but gather the wheat into my barn."'"

"This is NOT a reference to the Catholic Church. Jesus was speaking to His 70 disciples that He sent out to preach. The Catholic Church didn't even exist at that time."

Those 70 disciples WERE the Catholic Church. Once again, read Matthew 16:18-19.
 
Reba said:
Why would you want to attend a church that you can't trust enough to support financially? If you can't trust them with your money, how can you trust them with the preaching?

Depends on the church, Reba. I trust the preaching, the rest of it, especially with my giving to it, they need to win my respect.
 
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