Bush Weighs 9/11 Panel's Ideas as Pressure Builds

Reba said:
I don't want to be cruel, but you really need to brush up on your critical reading skills. The word "missile" has more than one meaning, and Rumsfeld was obviously using it in the generic sense, describing how the plane was used as a missile.


Yes, it tells me that there are a lot of people in this world who enjoy designing websites around conspiracy theories. I went to the site, looked at the photos, and read the text. Nothing new there.

If you really believe your version of what happened, you should be willing to answer my questions. I will try one more time.

1. If it wasn't Flight 77 that hit the Pentagon building, what exactly did hit the building?

2. If Flight 77 didn't hit the Pentagon, what happened to the plane, crew, and passengers? Where did they go?

3. Radar tracks show the route of Flight 77 leading to the Pentagon. If it didn't hit the building, where did it go?

4. What would be the reason for the government and witnesses to lie about the plane hitting the Pentagon?

5. If Flight 77 was fake, then does that mean the planes hitting the WTC and the Pennsylvania field were fake too? If not, how did all that happen on the same day?

6. Usually when a missile strikes the side of a building it penetrates then explodes upward and outward. The Pentagon walls and roof collapsed downward and inward. What kind of missile was it? What aircraft fired it?

7. A smaller plane could not carry as much fuel to cause such a large fireball. What caused the extensive fire in the Pentagon?

8. What makes these websites believable to you? Are the people behind them experts that you can trust? Do you know their backgrounds and associates?
I've been wondering about that too. I read information on the Pentagon. They showed pictures of the crash at the Pentagon. They showed pictures of the airplane engines, the skidmarks, etc. The size of the crash was smaller than the size of the airplane. The skidmarks looked like it came from something smaller. The engine were smaller than the actual engine of the big plane. The video of the crash was not live, but second by second. According to the calculations, whatever hit the building had to be going at a specific speed in order to not be seen by the camera. That speed was something the big plane could not accomplish. I've been wondering about this myself too. :eek:
 
Beowulf said:
I will try to answer your questions.
1) It was a missile.
2) That's what I want to know. Look at the site of impact. NO DEBRIS WHATSOEVER, just a tiny bit of damage. Where is the black box? We are to believe that EVERY MICROMETER OF THE PLANE VAPORIZED???
3) No one saw Flight 77. No one showed any evidence that it was on radar.
4) To rile public sentiment into going along with whatever they designed for post-911.
5) Not necessarily. You are trying to put assumptive words into my mouth. There are tapes of the jetliners at the WTC. No tapes except of the missile at the Pentagon.
6) If a huge jetliner hit the Pentagon, why was there so little damage? The missile hit at exact ground level, and it exploded inward as well as outward, so of course there was some structural collapse.
7) A missile. Come on now, look at the pictures and tapes of that fireball. It was not that HUGE. A Hellfire missile could easily do that. And witnesses in the area smelled cordite.
8) What makes the government so believable to you that you would believe THEM and not your lying eyes? That is ridiculous.
And finally, there are thousands of sites on this matter because the truth cannot be hidden forever. Where there's smoke, there's fire. The fire from a missile strike at the Pentagon for example.
Rumsfeld said "Missile." Leaders of other counties have said the same. Because they are absolutely correct.

Esp look at the picture of the hole on the side of the Pentagon:

avion-incrustation.jpg
 
We gotta be fair, though.
Some would rather say it was a UFO that hit, rather than a missile.
Hmmm.
Heyyyy, it fits!
 

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Beowulf said:
We gotta be fair, though.
Some would rather say it was a UFO that hit, rather than a missile.
Hmmm.
Heyyyy, it fits!



:lol: that's good one..
 
Beowulf said:
1) It was a missile.
What kind? Fired by whom? Fired for what reason?

2) That's what I want to know. Look at the site of impact. NO DEBRIS WHATSOEVER, just a tiny bit of damage. Where is the black box? We are to believe that EVERY MICROMETER OF THE PLANE VAPORIZED???
Actually there are photos that show debris outside the building. Yes, most of what was inside the building was "vaporized". The reinforced concrete structure acted like a crematorium oven, concentrating the jet-fuel fed intense fire.
About the "black box", from Fox News, 9/15/01:
"Meanwhile, investigators tell Fox News they are getting 'good, solid readings' from American Airlines Flight 77's data recorder. That plane crashed into the Pentagon, killing a total of 188 people in Washington — a combination of military and civilian employees on the ground and the passengers in the plane.
According to data on the recorder, the plane was going 345 miles per hour when it crashed at about 9:30 Tuesday morning. Investigators also say the recorder has speed and altitude information for the plane's entire flight.
The plane's voice recorder was also recovered, but National Transportation Safety Board officials say it was too damaged in the fire to obtain any information from it."


3) No one saw Flight 77. No one showed any evidence that it was on radar.
"Reagan national controllers then vectored an unarmed national Guard C-130H cargo aircraft, which had just taken off en route to Minnesota, to identify and follow the suspicious aircraft. The C-130H pilot spotted it, identified it as a Boeing 757..."
"...FAA radar equipment tracked the flight from the moment its transponder was turned off at 8:56..."

4) To rile public sentiment into going along with whatever they designed for post-911.
Let me get this straight. Within minutes after the two planes hit the WTC, the President thought, "hmmm...we are under attack; the best action to take now is to send a missile into the Pentagon." That doesn't make any sense. If you are supposing that Secretary Rumsfeld was in on the plot, he was thinking, "wow, Muslim terrorists are attacking our country; I think the best thing to do is call in a missile strike on the Pentagon. I think I'll just sit here at my desk in the Pentagon and wait for the big boom." Sounds reasonable. Also, if this was truly a "Bush administration" plot, why would they leave so many supposedly "obvious" clues? If there was any credibility to this theory, why aren't the Democrats jumping all over this during the election season? If the Democratic leaders think this was a plot, how come they are not screaming for the impeachment and prosecution of George Bush? Wouldn't they be the first to jump on the opportunity?

5) Not necessarily. You are trying to put assumptive words into my mouth. There are tapes of the jetliners at the WTC. No tapes except of the missile at the Pentagon.
Where is there a tape of a missile at the Pentagon? Even the websites you provided don't show that.

6) If a huge jetliner hit the Pentagon, why was there so little damage? The missile hit at exact ground level, and it exploded inward as well as outward, so of course there was some structural collapse.
What do you consider "little damage"? It looks like huge damage to most people. Remember, the Pentagon building is not tall like the WTC, and that wing had been recently reinforced to minimize structural damage. From the outside it wasn't obvious but the inside was gutted. The plane hit between the first and second floors, not ground level. You can see in the photos that it did not explode outward like a missile strike.

7) A missile. Come on now, look at the pictures and tapes of that fireball. It was not that HUGE. A Hellfire missile could easily do that. And witnesses in the area smelled cordite.
Again, it was a huge fireball, much of it burning behind the outer walls. The fuel capacity of a smaller plane would not do that. Do you remember the small plane that hit a tall building in Florida a few months later? The young pilot flew it directly into the building, which was not reinforced concrete. The plane was sticking out from the window, almost intact. No fire. If a plane that size had hit the Pentagon, it would have looked like a squashed bug on the outside wall. At most it would have broken a window. Obviously something much bigger and heavier hit the Pentagon. The wings broke off upon impact, crushing inward to the fuselage, spraying jet fuel throughout.


8) What makes the government so believable to you that you would believe THEM and not your lying eyes? That is ridiculous.
Maybe, by some stretch of imagination, one agency could "plot" something but the complexity of so many various agencies, federal, state, local, civilian, and military, involved in so short a time would make such a conspiracy impossible without "leaks". It would require the cooperation of so many agencies and players with so many different agendas and goals that it couldn't happen. You have already seen that one of the major problems we face in our war against terrorism is the lack of cooperation and coordination amongst the agencies, and that is even with a common goal. Also, there are too many loyal Americans in the various agencies who would never go along with such a plot.

You should enjoy the new version of
Manchurian Candidate
coming to theaters soon.

And finally, there are thousands of sites on this matter because the truth cannot be hidden forever.
Yes, and there are thousands of sites supporting alien abductions, Big Foot, racial supremacy, Da Vinci codes, etc. That doesn't make things "true".

Rumsfeld said "Missile."
So what? I have explained that to you over and over. That is no proof, totally irrelavent, not even logical. Do you not understand English?

Leaders of other counties have said the same.
Really? Which "leaders" said that a missile hit the Pentagon?
 
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Cheri said:
Purging Voters in Florida before Election 2000...
How could George Bush do that? He was governor of Texas, not Florida.

Not protecting our country...
He was working from the intelligence that was gathered during the Clinton administration. Also, suppose he used what information he had at that time, and tried to stop the terrorists by arresting them when they tried to board the planes. What would have happened? The ACLU and all the liberals would be screaming "profiling" and "abuse of civil rights"! Their lawyers would force the government to let them go. People would scream, "Oh, Bush is awful, he had the government arrest those innocent men who did nothing. He doesn't have enough proof to do that!" No matter what, Bush gets the blame.

Lies to the Congress and the American people to justify an illegal War in Iraq...
It has been proven over and over again that Bush did not lie. Even the Democrat know that is true. The war in Iraq was legal, even according to the UN. Saddam was not obeying the sanctions and restrictions that were put upon him by the UN] following the Gulf War. The United States had every legal right to attack Iraq.

I never asked to have a war does he care what we think?
No government leader ever puts up war to a popular poll or vote (hmmm...except maybe Spain). War and national security don't depend on what you and I think or our opinions.

...there is no evidence to support that cause the 9/11 Damaged and people being Killed.
Actually, more evidence is coming out all the time supporting the Iraq terrorist connection (such as financial and training support).

Bush is not an expert on war. He doesn't even know what he is doing.
How do you know that? Are you an expert? What do you base that on?

he pretended 9/11 was the basis for invading Iraq...
No, he pretended nothing.

This WAR in Iraq was needless and very costly.
Costly, yes. Needless, no.

This president sent the American troops in unprepared...
That is a total insult to the American troops. We have the best trained and prepared troops in the world.

...and without an exit strategy!
What exactly does "exit strategy" mean to you?
Do you know that we entered World War Two without worrying about "exit strategy"? So what? The exit strategy depends on what happens during the war.
What is Kerry's exit strategy? Do you approve of his plan?
 
Reba said:
What kind? Fired by whom? Fired for what reason?


Actually there are photos that show debris outside the building. Yes, most of what was inside the building was "vaporized". The reinforced concrete structure acted like a crematorium oven, concentrating the jet-fuel fed intense fire.


"Reagan national controllers then vectored an unarmed national Guard C-130H cargo aircraft, which had just taken off en route to Minnesota, to identify and follow the suspicious aircraft. The C-130H pilot spotted it, identified it as a Boeing 757..."
"...FAA radar equipment tracked the flight from the moment its transponder was turned off at 8:56..."


Let me get this straight. Within minutes after the two planes hit the WTC, the President thought, "hmmm...we are under attack; the best action to take now is to send a missile into the Pentagon." That doesn't make any sense. If you are supposing that Secretary Rumsfeld was in on the plot, he was thinking, "wow, Muslim terrorists are attacking our country; I think the best thing to do is call in a missile strike on the Pentagon. I think I'll just sit here at my desk in the Pentagon and wait for the big boom." Sounds reasonable. Also, if this was truly a "Bush administration" plot, why would they leave so many supposedly "obvious" clues? If there was any credibility to this theory, why aren't the Democrats jumping all over this during the election season? If the Democratic leaders think this was a plot, how come they are not screaming for the impeachment and prosecution of George Bush? Wouldn't they be the first to jump on the opportunity?


Where is there a tape of a missile at the Pentagon? Even the websites you provided don't show that.


What do you consider "little damage"? It looks like huge damage to most people. Remember, the Pentagon building is not tall like the WTC, and that wing had been recently reinforced to minimize structural damage. From the outside it wasn't obvious but the inside was gutted. The plane hit between the first and second floors, not ground level. You can see in the photos that it did not explode outward like a missile strike.


Again, it was a huge fireball, much of it burning behind the outer walls. The fuel capacity of a smaller plane would not do that. Do you remember the small plane that hit a tall building in Florida a few months later? The young pilot flew it directly into the building, which was not reinforced concrete. The plane was sticking out from the window, almost intact. No fire. If a plane that size had hit the Pentagon, it would have looked like a squashed bug on the outside wall. At most it would have broken a window. Obviously something much bigger and heavier hit the Pentagon. The wings broke off upon impact, crushing inward to the fuselage, spraying jet fuel throughout.



Maybe, by some stretch of imagination, one agency could "plot" something but the complexity of so many various agencies, federal, state, local, civilian, and military, involved in so short a time would make such a conspiracy impossible without "leaks". It would require the cooperation of so many agencies and players with so many different agendas and goals that it couldn't happen. You have already seen that one of the major problems we face in our war against terrorism is the lack of cooperation and coordination amongst the agencies, and that is even with a common goal. Also, there are too many loyal Americans in the various agencies who would never go along with such a plot.

You should enjoy the new version of coming to theaters soon.


Yes, and there are thousands of sites supporting alien abductions, Big Foot, racial supremacy, Da Vinci codes, etc. That doesn't make things "true".


So what? I have explained that to you over and over. That is no proof, totally irrelavent, not even logical. Do you not understand English?


Really? Which "leaders" said that a missile hit the Pentagon?

This is gonna be fun.
Debris outside the building? Show me ONE SHRED from this Dept of Defense photo and show me a pic of "debris'...
http://www.defenselink.mil/photos/Sep2001/010914-F-8006R-002.jpg

Show me PROOF controllers vectored the "jetliner." All we have is the word of confirmed liars. I suppose we ought to take a giant leap of faith and take their word. Hoo hah.

Let ME set this straight. During the several minutes after Bush was informed of a "surprise attack" on the USA, he continued reading about goats. The Secret Service made absolutely no attempt to do their sworn duty and whisk him away to safety. Why? He did not NEED to issue any more orders than those already being carried out.
Many people are TRYING to reveal the truth but the media is forbidden to do so.

http://thewebfairy.com/killtown/flight77/claim.html

There is a security camera film footage of the missile strike and you know it.

Sure, there is damage to the Pentagon, but it is utterly out of proportion to the size of the "jetliner." The damage entry was barely big enough to admit the fuselage, for example, and the phantom "wings" did absolutely no damage to either side of the impact point on the building. Where are the "wings?" No doubt you will desperately blurt that the outward force of the explosion magically sucked the wings into the structure to be "cremated." Very convenient. But ridiculous to anyone with an IQ over room temperature. How can you see the fireball explode outward and claim that it is not exploding outward? That is just nuts.

The Manhattan Project was Top Secret for years. Give it time and we will finally know the truth about 911. Or is that what you are so terrified of?

Yes, I understand English, and I also understand that to are attempting to impose your own rules and interpretations of it. He said "missile" as I have explained over and over and over. No doubt he said it accidentally, it was a Freudian slip, but he meant missile when he said missile.

Chirac of France and Putin of Russia insist to this day that it was a missile strike, among a growing number.
http://www.questionsquestions.net/kolskegg_911.html

"Men are apt to be blind to unpleasant truth." --Thomas Jefferson

Apparently that applies to women as well.
 
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Beowulf said:
Debris outside the building? Show me ONE SHRED from this Dept of Defense photo and show me a pic of "debris'...
http://www.defenselink.mil/photos/Sep2001/010914-F-8006R-002.jpg
Why are you using this particular photo? It doesn't even show the area around the Pentagon?

Show me PROOF controllers vectored the "jetliner." All we have is the word of confirmed liars. I suppose we ought to take a giant leap of faith and take their word. Hoo hah.
What "confirmed liars" are you talking about? Are you saying the FAA controllers are liars? If you don't have "a giant leap of faith" in air traffic controllers, I assume you never take trips in airplanes.

Let ME set this straight. During the several minutes after Bush was informed of a "surprise attack" on the USA, he continued reading about goats. The Secret Service made absolutely no attempt to do their sworn duty and whisk him away to safety. Why? He did not NEED to issue any more orders than those already being carried out.
Would you prefer that the President be shown panicking and being whisked out of the room? The Secret Service knew he was safe there at that time. The President wanted to convey confidence and reassurance to the people, not fear.
What orders are you saying were issued?

Many people are TRYING to reveal the truth but the media is forbidden to do so.http://thewebfairy.com/killtown/flight77/claim.html
And where did you find this nugget of inside information? Who is "forbidding" the media to "reveal the truth"?

If this "conspiracy" secret is so forbidden and covered up, how is that so many "experts" have websites chock full of this "information?" It seems to be the most widespread "secret" in all history.

There is a security camera film footage of the missile strike and you know it.
I have seen security camera footage of the impact but it doesn't show any missile.

No doubt you will desperately blurt...
You are so funny.

How can you see the fireball explode outward and claim that it is not exploding outward? That is just nuts.
That is the fireball bursting out from the building; notice it is not the building itself exploding up and out. The roof and the walls did not explode outward, they collapsed down.

The Manhattan Project was Top Secret for years. Give it time and we will finally know the truth about 911. Or is that what you are so terrified of?
The truth does not terrify me at all. You are right about one thing. In time you will know the truth. My only desire is that people will not be misled from the real dangers in the world by fantasy conspiracies in the meantime.

... I also understand that to are attempting to impose your own rules and interpretations of it.
They are not my rules or interpretations. They are standard usage for English reading and writing.

...he meant missile when he said missile.
Yes, in the generic descriptive sense, as the plane was used as a missile.

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia:
A missile is, broadly, a projectile, that is, something thrown or otherwise propelled. Missiles can range from a rock thrown from a slingshot, through a crossbow bolt, to a Minuteman III intercontinental ballistic missile (ICBM) with multiple nuclear warheads.

from Cambridge Dictionary of American English
a flying weapon that has its own engine and can travel a long distance before exploding at the place at which it has been aimed
A missile can also be any object that is thrown with the intention of causing injury or damage: Rioters hurled missiles at the police.

dictionary.com
A weapon thrown or projected or intended to be projcted, as a lance, an arrow, or a bullet.

from Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary
1 a flying weapon which has its own engine so that it can travel a long distance before exploding at the place that it has been aimed at:
Missile attacks on the capital resumed at dawn.

2 FORMAL any object that is thrown with the intention of causing injury or damage:
Stones, bottles and other missiles were thrown at the police.

Chirac of France and Putin of Russia insist to this day that it was a missile strike...
http://www.questionsquestions.net/kolskegg_911.html
Now there's a couple of real reputable sources! You trust Chirac and Putin?! LOL!
 
Glad you're having fun, sweetie.
So am I!

I will get back to you on your questions, since I gotta run now.

But one thing you said struck me as odd, though...
You said that the Secret Service "knew he was safe there at the time."
He was JUST INFORMED of a SECOND HIT of a "SURPRISE" ATTACK!
HOW would they know, in so many uncertainties of an ongoing "surprise" attack, that he was SAFE there????
There was an airport less than four miles from that school, and they had breaking news that jetliners were crashing into places, and the media announced ahead of time (the previous day in fact) his intention of being at that school!
Don't you think his safety and security is of over-riding concern?
But you answered the question.
THEY KNEW HE WAS NOT A TARGET.

Well, we will knock heads again later tonight.
It's been a slice.
Take care, kiddo.
 
p.s.
I went back and read some more of Beowulf's links. According to the "experts" on the web, they can't even agree on their conspiracy. At one of the links (http://davesweb.cnchost.com/nwsltr7.html) it was suggested that the Pentagon was attacked by:
1. a missile
2. a small passenger plane
3. a bomb-laden truck
4. a fighter jet
5. a helicopter

The site's author also admitted that he had no idea what happened to the people onboard Flight 77.

Maybe they became part of "The 44,000"?
 
Beowulf said:
You said that the Secret Service "knew he was safe there at the time."
Meaning just at that immediate time since there were no reports of hijacked planes in that area or headed that way. Within 18 minutes of the plane hitting the Pentagon, Air Force One was in the air. It was a calculated risk that the President was willing to take in order to minimize panic.

Don't you think his safety and security is of over-riding concern?
To the Secret Service it was but to President Bush it was not. From the report, "...the Secret Service, the President's advisers, and Vice President Cheney were strongly advising against [the President returning to DC]. President Bush reluctantly acceded to this advice...In the late afternoon, the President overruled his aides' continuing reluctance to have him return to Washington and ordered Air Force One back to Andrews Air Force Base." This is because he wanted to reassure the American people. He understood that some things are more important than personal safety.

THEY KNEW HE WAS NOT A TARGET.
Not at all. That is why they initially kept him moving from place to place.
 
Excerpt of Florida events:

Atta plunged the 767 jumbo jet into World Trade Center Tower One.

“I thought it was an accident,” says Mr. Bush. “I thought it was a pilot error. I thought that some foolish soul had gotten lost and - and made a terrible mistake.”

Mr. Bush was told about the first plane just before sitting down with a class of second graders. He was watching a reading drill when, just after nine, United Flight 175 exploded into the second tower. There was the sudden realization that what had seemed like a terrible mistake was a coordinated attack.

Back in the Florida classroom, press secretary Ari Fleischer got the news on his pager. The president’s chief-of-staff, Andy Card stepped in.

“A second plane hit the second tower; America is under attack,” Card told the president.

When he said those words, what did he see in the President’s face?

“I saw him coming to recognition of what I had said,” Card recalls. “I think he understood that he was going to have to take command as commander-in-chief, not just as president.”

What was going through Bush’s mind when he heard the news?

“We’re at war and somebody has dared attack us and we’re going to do something about it,” Mr. Bush recalls. “I realized I was in a unique setting to receive a message that somebody attacked us, and I was looking at these little children and all of the sudden we were at war. I can remember noticing the press pool and the press corps beginning to get the calls and seeing the look on their face. And it became evident that we were, you know, that the world had changed.”

Mr. Bush walked into a classroom set up with a secure phone. He called the vice president, pulling the phone cord tight as he spun to see the attack on TV. Then he grabbed a legal pad and quickly wrote his first words to the nation.

"Ladies and gentlemen, this is a difficult moment for America,” he said in the speech. “Today, we’ve had a national tragedy.”

It was 9:30 a.m. As he spoke, Mr. Bush didn’t know that two more hijacked jets were streaking toward Washington....

For the rest of the article:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/09/11/60II/main521718.shtml
 
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How soon we forget.
What you are neglecting to mention is that now-infamous statement Bush made that he saw the first plane crash into the WTC ON TELEVISION and thinking to himself that it was "a terrible pilot."
How do you explain that?
That moron cannot even keep his stories straight.
And as for his videoed response to the second crash, we have eyes.
We SAW his response.
You are constantly trying to "interpret" for us WHAT WE SEE FOR OURSELVES.
Nice try though.

http://www.alphademon.com/unix/wot/bushflub.htm
 
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Beowulf said:
How soon we forget.
What you are neglecting to mention is that now-infamous statement Bush made that he saw the first plane crash into the WTC ON TELEVISION and thinking to himself that it was "a terrible pilot."
How do you explain that?
I don't understand your question. What is there to explain? That is what he said each time. His story didn't change. He said that he thought the first plane in the WTC was an isolated pilot error or random pilot action.

And as for his videoed response to the second crash, we have eyes.
We SAW his response.
So? What was wrong with what you saw? Was he smiling and winking and gleefully rubbing his hands together like, "aha, we did it!"? No! Tell me what you saw that I missed.

You are constantly trying to "interpret" for us WHAT WE SEE FOR OURSELVES.
What exactly are you referring to? What did you see that I "interpreted"?
 
Beowulf said:
http://www.alphademon.com/unix/wot/bushflub.htm
...that he is without doubt the dumbest person ever to hold high office in the United States of America...
According to you and the above link, President Bush is most stupid person you know. At the same time, you accuse him of plotting a conspiracy that is unbelievably complicated, involving hundreds of people, agencies, technical manipulations, etc. How can it be true both ways? Either, according to you, he is a total dope, or he is a diabolical genius. Which is it? You can't have it both ways.
 
Beowulf said:
So far I am just getting warmed up.
Wanna see a missile hit the WTC?
:angel:
http://www.letsroll911.org/EUinquiry.html

It is not even logical. If a plane is equipped with a missile, why would they fire it just yards from the target? The whole reason a plane uses a missile is to be able to fire at the target from a long distance, and then fly off to safety. What would be the purpose in firing a missile AND hitting the target with the plane? A bit of overkill for no reason.

I think you are getting silly and just trying to push my buttons.
 
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