Audism at its peak in deaf school

rockdrummer said:
I am not sure why you would choose to conclude that hearing people are thinking deaf people are nosy. It's obvious that if you are using sign language that anyone within eyeshot will be able to see your conversation. Again, I am not defending anything here but only trying to be fair. I would love to find out from one of these teachers first hand what has motivated them to do this as opposed to speculating.
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Ok, if the teachers want to talk in privately, go somewhere private but dont take advantage of deaf people's hearing loss to use their voices without signing in front of them. It is rude. Just like deaf sign-language users go someplace private for a private conversation so other deaf signers cant see what they are saying.
 
Lighthouse77 said:
hmmm, in my public school, alot of kids hear their teachers talk about this sort of thing. it doesn't mean they always listen to it. whenever a teacher disrupt a class to talk to another teacher, those kids ALWAYS listen to it because the teachers drew attention to them that way. That's why they talk about this privately. Just because teachers sign it doesn't mean the kids pay attention to it if the kids are busy playing or talking with each other... Personally, it's a good social skills to learn how to carry a conversation for deaf kids because they don't get the same opportunity as hearing kids. Hearing kids tend to overhear their parents' conversation to learn how to carrry a conservation. I figure that out from my own hearing son. Everything I say or do, he does the same thing.


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Agreed, deaf children need language models to be fully accessible to them and to deny them that especially at the educational setting is denying their rights.

If the hearing teachers want to talk about something that they dont want the students to know, then DONT TALK about it in front of them!!! Common sense!
 
shel90 said:
Agreed, deaf children need language models to be fully accessible to them and to deny them that especially at the educational setting is denying their rights.

If the hearing teachers want to talk about something that they dont want the students to know, then DONT TALK about it in front of them!!! Common sense!
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LOL... I remember I used to shock teachers by repeating what they say... when they talk about private matters in front of me, assuming that I wouldn't be able to pick it up.
 
rockdrummer said:
That said, I do agree that if the hearing teachers are doing this maliciously then that is wrong. But consider this. There are times that people don't want to involve others in conversations and there may be legitimate reasons for that. In teaching they may be discussing grades or test strategies or something along those lines. Those are just examples or it may even be something personal. The problem with sign language is that everyone can see your conversation. How do you whisper in sign language?
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Hi Rockdrummer! Yes, you're right that teachers will need to discuss things that students shouldn't hear. We do that by keeping private conversations private -- not in the classroom or in the halls in front of students. We talk in the department office, or use email. My mom taught at an elementary school, and they did the same thing -- talk in the principal's office, in the staff room, at after-school meetings, or away from school.

As for whispering in sign, there are ways to keep more private conversations private. I'm not the best person to ask, but I have seen people step into a corner to have private sign conversations, or pull their signs in close to the body.
 
inmate23 said:
the local tc deaf school is now going ORAL ONLY and the sign only staff are LOSING their jobs
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Really? What prompted their decision? is that in USA or tc is another country? Where's that place?
 
rockdrummer said:
No offense taken Shel. It's just an observation. I tend to try and see things from all points of view and I believe this just like many things in life have to be considered on a case by case basis. That said, I do agree that if the hearing teachers are doing this maliciously then that is wrong. But consider this. There are times that people don't want to involve others in conversations and there may be legitimate reasons for that. In teaching they may be discussing grades or test strategies or something along those lines. Those are just examples or it may even be something personal. The problem with sign language is that everyone can see your conversation. How do you whisper in sign language?

Personally, to be fair I can't draw a conclusion unless I know what the reasons are. As I said, if the motivation is of a malicious nature then I completely agree that it's wrong. The problem is that people tend to draw conclusions based on speculation of what the motivation is. I don't like to do that. There are always two sides to a story. Sometimes three. And we have discussed before how some people throw audisim around loosely. I am not suggesting that the OP has done this but it does happen.
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Regarding to your question with whispering in sign language, it is possible. I believe that someone else described it in another post.

I agree that we don't know much about this case but generally speaking, hearing or deaf staff shouldnt drop signing in front of other deaf staff or deaf children whether the conversation is private or not. If it is due to wanting to keep the conversation private, it is more respectful to go to a private area. If it is not private, then they are practicing audism by denying access to the conversation to those who cant hear well enough to "listen" the conversation.

I respect your views that you feel that the term audism is thrown around too loosely but in my opinion, from my experience with this kind of thing at my own workplace and knowing the OP isnt one to jump to conclusions, it is practicing audism.
 
Lighthouse77 said:
I believe Inmate is from NZ so she is talking about the local school in her area.
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Yes I am see the image the school covers half the country. and what(staff call) deaf plus students normally without communtion(signed or oral) and to board the age minium age is 13
 
rockdrummer said:
Again, I am not defending anything here but only trying to be fair. I would love to find out from one of these teachers first hand what has motivated them to do this as opposed to speculating.
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I am sure you try to be fair, but I am not sure if you suceed in doing so. You claim in this thread that one have to consider speaking in case by case, then you say that it's never considered rude to whisper among hearing people. Suddenly it's not necessary to consider case to case.

I see you are trying to "understand" both sides here, but how come that you fail to explain why those hearing teachers are doing this, when all deaf posters here consider it rude, and even have told those hearings this, by notes on the wall, reminding of bilingualism at the workplace. Who fail to understand who?

A free thinker like you should be supposed to know that people can do wrong without wanting to be malicious. From this perspective, you can perhaps figure out why some hearing teachers are doing this.
 
I have succeeded in being fair. By not drawing any conclusions without all of the evidence means that I am being fair. Remember innocent until proven guilty. I am not saying this is not audist practice. It may very well be. What I am saying is that I won't come to that conclusion without knowing what has motivated these teachers. Ironically (if I understand correctly) wouldn't it be deafism to automatically assume and speculate that this is audist practice without knowing all of the facts.

And yes I understand that when people need to keep conversations private they go to private places but I also understand depending on the urgency going somewhere private may not always be convenient or even possible.

No it is not considered rude for hearing people to whisper. The difference is that nobody is assuming an audist attitude when hearing people whisper. That is why it is not necessary to take whispering by hearing people around hearing people on a case by case basis.

I know people can do wrong without malicious intent. That will fall under the category of ignorance. Fortunately those are the people that you stand a good chance of changing through education and awareness.
 
deaf teachers don't do this to their deaf students. I'm trying to think of reason to voice instead of signing in an urgency and if they would still use their voice if there were hearing children in their class. I can't think of anything.

These teachers are guilty because they do this ALL the time. You obviously think they can use their voice anytime around deaf kids if they don't want deaf kids hear their conversation. All it does is put these kids feel even more isolated and excluded. Deaf school is not a social gathering for hearing teachers.

I asked my hearing husband how he would feel if a hearing teacher work in a deaf school kept using their voice for everything instead of signing. even if it is about the school, they use their voice instead of signing even though there are deaf teachers there. He told me, in his workplace, any employees who use Spanish instead of English to talk about work or speak Spanish during work hours in a heavily English-speaking environment (but speak English to English-speaking people whenever they want something out of them), they would get fired. This only apply to Spanish-speaking people people who know how to speak English but choose not to use it. His work have a security policy but when people don't understand Spanish, they can't tell what they are up to. It corrupts the company if employees are out of the loop. So, Even he feel they should use sign language at all time.
 
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Agreed Lighthouse..in addition to what you said, it also brings the morale down and makes people suspicous of each other.

Hearing people shouldn't drop signing and use their voices at a Deaf school ever.
 
rockdrummer said:
I have succeeded in being fair. By not drawing any conclusions without all of the evidence means that I am being fair. Remember innocent until proven guilty. I am not saying this is not audist practice. It may very well be. What I am saying is that I won't come to that conclusion without knowing what has motivated these teachers. Ironically (if I understand correctly) wouldn't it be deafism to automatically assume and speculate that this is audist practice without knowing all of the facts.

And yes I understand that when people need to keep conversations private they go to private places but I also understand depending on the urgency going somewhere private may not always be convenient or even possible.

No it is not considered rude for hearing people to whisper. The difference is that nobody is assuming an audist attitude when hearing people whisper. That is why it is not necessary to take whispering by hearing people around hearing people on a case by case basis.

I know people can do wrong without malicious intent. That will fall under the category of ignorance. Fortunately those are the people that you stand a good chance of changing through education and awareness.
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Er.. ok. I don't know what to reply when someone state that it's never considered rude to whisper among a group of people called "hearings". Ok, let's move on.

Talking about beeing fair, perhaps those teachers are saints free of sin, that just want to help? Perhaps those deaf people are ugly deafists? Perhaps those teachers are ignorant audists? Perhaps I am a deafist? Perhaps your claims and questions are audistic? Yeah, we must be fair and consider all possibilities.

But it's an interesting question why they speak up in front of deaf people, and shouting audism don't tell me much either, though it does not necessary mean it's not audism.
 
Flip. What is considered rude may be subjective. While I don't consider it rude for people to whisper others might. That is not my problem.

And thank you for re-enforcing my point. We can sit here and speculate all day long about what something might be. For me to be fair I will not draw any conclusions based on speculation. And If I choose to speculate I would rather be optomistic than pessimistic. That doesn't mean I am right or wrong and it doesn't mean we have to agree.

It's too bad those teachers are not here to defend their position. That is if there is a defense.
 
rockdrummer said:
Flip. What is considered rude may be subjective. While I don't consider it rude for people to whisper others might. That is not my problem.

And thank you for re-enforcing my point. We can sit here and speculate all day long about what something might be. For me to be fair I will not draw any conclusions based on speculation. And If I choose to speculate I would rather be optomistic than pessimistic. That doesn't mean I am right or wrong and it doesn't mean we have to agree.

It's too bad those teachers are not here to defend their position. That is if there is a defense.
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I think it's possible to find out what is going on here, even if one have to speculate to find out. You have to remember that many of us have a long history of beeing students of or working with those teachers, so it makes it less necessary to speculate than if one have less experience with those teachers. But I find your skeptical standpoint interesting and enriching sometimes. I wouldn't perhaps buy everything a group of people told me either.


But honestly, I feel it's audism in work here, though it's not necessary by ignorance or malicious behavior.

From talking with and asking those teachers, it looks very much like it's a matter of protecting their self esteem. Deaf teachers have sign language, the deaf mind and full interaction with the students. Hearing teachers, from the 70s and 80s have TC and special methods. It's impossibly hard for many of them to understand that what they have found a purpose in doing for 30 years, helping the students that they are passionate about, really just have delayed the students. I know, because when I once questioned the value of special methods and TC and how sign language fit into it all, in front of a group of hearing teachers, the respond was.. full of rage. It was a rage that reminded me of fear and insecurity, and I felt sorry for those teachers.

Using spoken language in front of deaf students, is a way of telling themselves that ASL does not matter that much, and their knowledge in TC and special teaching methods, that makes them competent and valued, matters. If they agreed to start to use ASL all the time, it would go against what they know and have lived for in 30 years.

That's why audism is so hard to get rid of in deaf schools over night, and that's also why those teachers never will come here and defend themselves, because that behavior would threaten their self esteem.

Ok, my subjective viewpoint.
 
Somebody should develop an audist test. Just to see how someone would respond to questions about deafness. I have said before and I still believe that some people that are audist's don't do it intentionally or even know they are doing it or are doing it out of ignorance. Those are the people that can change.
 
Just a small point: It's actually considered polite to take up a 'sidebar' conversation or clarification in a whisper to avoid disrupting a larger group discussion, an event, a class or presentation. It's also very common, when in multi-lingual situations, for those who share a native language to use that language when conversing at work even if it's not the language of the majority. Not every conversation is meant for everyone to hear or to be part of, and that shouldn't require people to have to step into closets, bathrooms or other 'private' places to interact with one another.

But these examples aren't excluding all access to what should be a group discussion between all staff, which the situation initially describes seems to be doing. I really like the approach taken at my daughter's school: all staff sign even if they are speaking to a spoken English-only audience: with visitors, parents who don't sign, teachers / SLPs from local schools. And that's done even if the there's no deaf person nearby -- the habit and the awareness of total accessibility is always being reinforced and it builds a positive culture that's sensitive to the issue.
 
GrendelQ said:
Just a small point: It's actually considered polite to take up a 'sidebar' conversation or clarification in a whisper to avoid disrupting a larger group discussion, an event, a class or presentation. It's also very common, when in multi-lingual situations, for those who share a native language to use that language when conversing at work even if it's not the language of the majority. Not every conversation is meant for everyone to hear or to be part of, and that shouldn't require people to have to step into closets, bathrooms or other 'private' places to interact with one another.
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That's why in ASL... you turn your back toward the crowd or conceal your hands close to your body... or make your ASL movements so minute, that only a select few near you would see it.
 
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