which is better?

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This is exactly why I slammed her so hard. Yet I'm called offensive for doing so. Oh well.

And me, too. Her singular focus on CI and speech, despite other factors, is downright unethical. And her lies are just that: lies. We have endured enough of her crap. I will be damned if I am going to sit by while she attempts to manipulate and take advantage of a new parent.
 
This, below, was not a push for a CI? What else was it? You MUST be kidding me. Wow, I'm sorry I didn't understand the humor or sarcasm behind either of your posts.

Of course it is a push for CI. And sarcasm is of no use in a thread where a parent is asking for opinions regarding her child. It has been shown that this child's welfare is not as great a concern to a couple of posters as is the opportunity to tout the wonders of a CI. If they truly believe that a CI is not for everyone, why the heck do they pop into every thread to tell parents and newly deafened what a wonder it is?
 
No one is pushing CIs for Frankie in this thread or in any of the others. But many are tearing into CIs, and it's not those with direct experience either with CIs or who have raised a deaf child with CIs who are doing this. Some of us with experience are trying to correct some of the many misconceptions being built.

Just because a child has or is pursuing access to spoken language using a HA or CI -- in addition to ASL -- doesn't mean he or she is somehow inferior or damaged goods. That sort of thinking, that someone is inferior or superior because of his or her ability to hear, is discriminatory and I hate seeing that here, of all places.

Frankie's Mom, your child has so many options right now. I hope you find the combination of language, academic environment, and assistive technology that works best. I hope those HAs you are currently pursuing do all that you hope and Frankie is able to develop full and active language in the mode you choose.

If you decide on the TC/oral environment you've mentioned in another thread, I wish you all the best. But, if you are considering switching and have questions about a bi-bi/ASL academic environment, please don't hesitate to ask me any questions you might have about our very happy experience at TLC, a school for the deaf in MA, for 4 years now. I realize programs like this don't grow on trees, but I'd love to spread the word about one that works.

We've also tried HAs with our daughter, eventually pursuing bilateral CIs when the HAs were found not to work (in our case, that means that while she could hear a jet airplane or alarm with them, they'd not be able to provide access to the "speech banana"), and at 5YO, she is happy, healthy, and fluent in both ASL and spoken English, despite being implanted on the very outer limits of the window that experts consider optimal for full language development, at nearly 2 years old. Cicircle.org is a great resource if you do find yourself considering CIs -- you'll get the good, the bad, the successes, the failures all very frankly discussed. You'll also very clearly see the differences in outcomes for those who implanted before 2, and those who implanted much later -- timing does matter (although this really depends upon the individual and what you are looking for out of CIs). For my daughter, CIs have exceeded all expectations -- she LOVES them, she loves being able to access sounds and she does so without difficulty. That's the case with many, if not most, but it's not so for all children.

I realize this is a thread about whether or not you should pursue HAs and / or CIs, but if I could stress or push one thing, it would be for you to immerse your child in ASL somehow -- regardless of hearing tech. It may be difficult considering the type of program you are leaning towards, but so critical for your little one to have a means of communicating with you right now. In our case, we knew it could take us a couple of years to achieve the kind of fluency we needed our child exposed to immediately, so we found an ASL-based daycare associated with the school for the deaf my daughter now attends, we found Deaf babysitters for the summers, and we transferred all of our EI activity to an ASL-based communication program (a parent infant program that met 3 X a week), and began family sign before we even knew our daughter was profoundly deaf and followed with classes in the evenings, my husband and I alternated nights. She has socialized from the very first with other deaf kids. So, while we ramped up our language, and explored hearing tech options, our child didn't suffer as much of a communication gap as is common to many hearing families attempting to raise a child with ASL. And she has been, for 2 years now, enrolled full time in an ASL-based academic environment.

This site -- Educating Deaf Children -- is an EXCELLENT resource, I can't recommend it enough for discussion, research, and an unbiased approach to all options! OK, it's a little bit biased towards bilingual ed, but you'll see fair representation. There's also a great deal of info. about hearing technologies and the choices you'll be making.

Then why is FJ even discussing CI, and why are you jumping in to defend her every post? Both of you started recommending CI and talking about how CI has been so great for your children from the outset. Yes, I mentioned my own son, but only after frankiesmom stated that she had made her decision. This thread was about Frankie, not about any one else's child, and not about an opportunity to compare your child, or FJ's child with this child. Completely different circumstances.

CI is not the end all and be all. It does not even need to enter into most discussions. It gets brought in by a very small minority of people who are, yes indeedy they are, pushing CI. You guys really should be getting paid for your efforts.
 
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not at all. I said specifically that if spoken language is not going to be a goal NOT to implant.

there are tons of multiplihandicapped kids with CIs. I happen to follow two. CIs are not a cure but they can be of great benefit in many different circumstances.

You seem to be a bit confused about the device you think is so miraculous. The purpose of a CI is to provide sound, not speech. They are not one and the same.
 
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jillio said:
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yes, my husband and myself can sign. None else in the family knows more than a handful, in spite of deaf mentors, asl classes and being constantly forced to attend deaf events.

my statement was simply a fact. I know plenty of people who place no value on spoken language, and that is absolutely wonderful. If you choose not to implant as a child, you are choosing to make the outcome completely different than it would have been with the CI. Different, not worse.

Nothing factual in your statement. As usual.

nothing factual? You are actually telling me what is and isn't true about my family now?
 
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the fact is, if you are a cochlear implant candidate, that means that you are missing out on the majority of spoken language through listening. That is what makes you a candidate, otherwise, you aren't a candidate.

that's just stating the truth. You just didn't like the way i said it.

So what? That isn't all it means to be a candidate. That is just the most important to the audist. And there are even more that are missing out on spoken language through listening that aren't candidates. You really need to get a grip.
 
I guess nowadays, the belief that without a CI deaf children cant learn to develop speech skills. Ignorant society, as usual.


I cannot begin to tell you how frustrated I am. It was about 36 years ago that I was first indoctrinated into oralism. It was about 30 years ago that I was considered a success and a spokesmodel for oralism because I was able to understand speech and could speak well or at least well enough. One CAN obtain speech and listening skills with hearing aids but now I'm stepping back and looking at the big picture...and this is what I think...by some twisted logic, government have determined deaf schools are unnecessary and a drain on the federal budget. Deaf schools are not necessary because CIs are mainstreaming deaf kids. Deaf schools close down, deaf centers close down but what about children not implanted? I went to my deaf center last week (and in fact, will be going again tomorrow) for the weekly social meet. By the way they asked if I was HOH or deaf. I said deaf and they were surpised that an oral person would not use hearing terms such as hard of hearing, hearing impaired but the deaf term, which is simply "deaf".

But they nodded and signed "ah, you know ASL?" I am learning it now, i signed back to them. They looked at each other as if to say "huh!" from that moment on, they welcomed me in like I was a member of the family and it was AMAZING! It felt so good to feel at home and at ease in my skin. The very idea that deaf schools that provide such an warm familial environment as tht deaf center (which is also a school for the deaf, also on the brink of being shut down) could shut down forever makes me shiver to the core. The video Shel90 posted, I was looking at those kids and comparing it to my school life growing up and I felt pangs of envy and regret that I didn't get this growing up. They look so confident, the opposite of what I felt mainstreamed.

deaf kids can definitely access spoken language without CIs (not all, I know) and they can definitely be happy as deaf kids as long as they're raised in an environment that's loving and supportive that enables them to gain the confidence they will need once they leave the nest and venture out into the world. It's my opinion that mainstream settings does not foster confidence and security in deaf kids. Deaf schools do. When one thinks of the long term effects of this instead of short term budget cuts, they recognize value in investing for the long term.

What frustrates me so much is that we have tons and tons and tons of evidence that deaf kids (not implanted) are not doing well in mainstream settings that require hearing. They do better in settings that require visual perception.

It's a fundamental truth that deaf schools are vital for deaf kids who rely on visual, not auditory, perceptions to learn. To take this away from them means to set them adrift and rootless and angry and dejected.
 
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nothing factual? You are actually telling me what is and isn't true about my family now?

I'm telling you that your statements never contain fact. Period. Even when you manage to grap ahold of something that has a grain of truth in it, you distort it so that it doesn't come close to factual.
 
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jillio said:
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not at all. I said specifically that if spoken language is not going to be a goal NOT to implant.

there are tons of multiplihandicapped kids with CIs. I happen to follow two. CIs are not a cure but they can be of great benefit in many different circumstances.

You seem to be a bit confused about the device you think is so miraculous. The purpose of a CI is to provide sound, not speech. They are not one and the same.

where did i say anything different?
 
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she just said she lipreads. She made my point.

I don't just lipread, I use sign language and I use an interpreter in school. And my hearing friends communicate with me in sign language too. lipreading is not the only thing I have said, I have said i use sign language so many times in this thread. obviously, you're not paying attention close enough.
 
I cannot begin to tell you how frustrated I am. It was about 36 years ago that I was first indoctrinated into oralism. It was about 30 years ago that I was considered a success and a spokesmodel for oralism because I was able to understand speech and could speak well or at least well enough. One CAN obtain speech and listening skills with hearing aids but now I'm stepping back and looking at the big picture...and this is what I think...by some twisted logic, government have determined deaf schools are unnecessary and a drain on the federal budget. Deaf schools are not necessary because CIs are mainstreaming deaf kids. Deaf schools close down, deaf centers close down but what about children not implanted? I went to my deaf center last week (and in fact, will be going again tomorrow) for the weekly social meet. By the way they asked if I was HOH or deaf. I said deaf and they were surpised that an oral person would not use hearing terms such as hard of hearing, hearing impaired but the deaf term, which is simply "deaf".

But they nodded and signed "ah, you know ASL?" I am learning it now, i signed back to them. They looked at each other as if to say "huh!" from that moment on, they welcomed me in like I was a member of the family and it was AMAZING! It felt so good to feel at home and at ease in my skin. The very idea that deaf schools that provide such an warm familial environment as tht deaf center (which is also a school for the deaf, also on the brink of being shut down) makes me shiver to the core. The video Shel90 posted, I was looking at those kids and comparing it to my school life growing up and I felt pangs of envy and regret that I didn't get this growing up. They look so confident, the opposite of what I felt mainstreamed.

deaf kids can definitely access spoken language without CIs (not all, I know) and they can definitely be happy as deaf kids as long as they're raised in an environment that's loving and supportive that enables them to gain the confidence they will need once they leave the nest and venture out into the world. It's my opinion that mainstream settings does not foster confidence and security in deaf kids. Deaf schools do. When one thinks of the long term effects of this instead of short term budget cuts, they recognize value in investing for the long term.

What frustrates me so much is that we have tons and tons and tons of evidence that deaf kids (not implanted) are not doing well in mainstream settings that require hearing. They do better in settings that require visual perception.

It's a fundamental truth that deaf schools are vital for deaf kids who rely on visual, not auditory, perceptions to learn. To take this away from them means to set them adrift and rootless and angry and dejected.

So agree...that's why I titled my thread that way but forgot that most hearing parents arent fluent in ASL.

Hearing people (most of them) just do not and REFUSE to understand all these issues. I dont know what goes on in their minds.
 
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jillio said:
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nothing factual? You are actually telling me what is and isn't true about my family now?

I'm telling you that your statements never contain fact. Period. Even when you manage to grap ahold of something that has a grain of truth in it, you distort it so that it doesn't come close to factual.

you are ridiculous. How do you even live with your own bs? All you have done this entire thread is insult grendel and myself and call us liars.

how do you believe you know more about the services my family received than i do?
 
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you are ridiculous. How do you even live with your own bs? All you have done this entire thread is insult grendel and myself and call us liars.

how do you believe you know more about the services my family received than i do?

nobody has BS, you have the BS.
 
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you are ridiculous. How do you even live with your own bs? All you have done this entire thread is insult grendel and myself and call us liars.

how do you believe you know more about the services my family received than i do?

Poor, poor FJ. Her is a wittle victim of everyone. Everyone is against her. Poor, poor wittle FJ.

Like I said, you eat it up. To you negative attention is better than no attention at all. It gives you the opportunity to pretend to be so victimized and so superior.
Get over yourself. We all got over you a long time ago.

You should truly be ashamed of yourself for what you have done to this mother's thread. No concern whatsoever for anyone but yourself. You are selfish, narcissistic, and offensive.
 
Ya'll, when this squirmish is over, they'll go back into their hidey-hole until another new parent shows up. Pity them. It must be awful to be so insecure that they lurk here waiting for an opportunity to justify themselves.
 
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jillio said:
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where did i say anything different?

Let me count the posts: probably well over a thousand at this point in time.

perhaps you should read more carefully. I wrote spoken language, not speech. CI provide access to spoken language for many children by giving them the ability to hear and discriminate all the sounds in spoken language.

speech is simply the sounds you make, english is the language.
 
Ya'll, when this squirmish is over, they'll go back into their hidey-hole until another new parent shows up. Pity them. It must be awful to be so insecure that they lurk here waiting for an opportunity to justify themselves.

Isn't it though. And not an ounce of shame for the way they use a new parent's inquiry to satisfy their own selfish, narcissistic needs. It is downright disgusting.
 
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