So...what you think about the health care bill?

Status
Not open for further replies.
A lot of people are talking as if we would be better off if insurance companies never existed in the first place. If you hate their product so much, nobody's forcing you to buy it (yet). I'm curious to know what options they're taking away from me that I otherwise would have if they didn't exist.
 
A lot of people are talking as if we would be better off if insurance companies never existed in the first place. If you hate their product so much, nobody's forcing you to buy it (yet). I'm curious to know what options they're taking away from me that I otherwise would have if they didn't exist.

I want an insurance company that wont suck me dry just to provide health care for my children. My mom used to have great insurance coverage for all of us but somehow, in the late 80s, things changed...it seemed like those who were on the bottom were not given the opportunity to have health care because they couldnt afford it. Something is wrong with the picture here...

After that, my mom was forced to choose an HMO because her prenimums tripled while I was in high school.

I guess my mom should have uprooted us and moved to Canada according to Eve's intelligent suggestion.
 
A lot of people are talking as if we would be better off if insurance companies never existed in the first place. If you hate their product so much, nobody's forcing you to buy it (yet). I'm curious to know what options they're taking away from me that I otherwise would have if they didn't exist.

My mom grew up in the generation where teenagers and young adults were expected to contribute to the family's insurance. This is back when 2-4 kids were the norm in the '50s-70s.

Now the family unit has reduced down to one to two... and kids are not expected to contribute to the house's income these days. Add sky-rocketing insurances, then you have even bigger problem that doesn't always provide smooth transition.
 
What is being taken away. Let's see: the right to affordable health care in a physician's office rather than having to go to an emergency room once an illness has reached catatrophic proportions. The right to have health care covered as stated in the policy rather than denied at whim of a pencil pushing high school graduate. The right to expect the reimbursement promised for the premiums paid. The right not to have a policy cancelled after paying into it for 20 years just because you were diagnosed with cancer, and the pencil pushers are afraid it would cut into the profits too much to pay out on treatment. The right to keep COBRA without having to go bankrupt to do so. Those are off the top of my head.
 
I want an insurance company that wont suck me dry just to provide health care for my children. My mom used to have great insurance coverage for all of us but somehow, in the late 80s, things changed...it seemed like those who were on the bottom were not given the opportunity to have health care because they couldnt afford it. Something is wrong with the picture here...

After that, my mom was forced to choose an HMO because her prenimums tripled while I was in high school.

I guess my mom should have uprooted us and moved to Canada according to Eve's intelligent suggestion.

And, in being forced to choose an HMO, she was also forced to use their physicians, accept their treatment plans, and accept substandard care in many, many cases.
 
What is being taken away. Let's see: the right to affordable health care in a physician's office rather than having to go to an emergency room once an illness has reached catatrophic proportions. The right to have health care covered as stated in the policy rather than denied at whim of a pencil pushing high school graduate. The right to expect the reimbursement promised for the premiums paid. The right not to have a policy cancelled after paying into it for 20 years just because you were diagnosed with cancer, and the pencil pushers are afraid it would cut into the profits too much to pay out on treatment. The right to keep COBRA without having to go bankrupt to do so. Those are off the top of my head.

My friend's FB status today said this, "

.... so mad the health care bill passed, i love fighting with my insurance company for simple coverage, paying through the nose for simple hospital visits/copays/premiums, being denied coverage for existing conditions, and choosing between paying for prescriptions or food, and paying exuberant rates to pay for those who choose not to get healthcare...morons....don't believe everything rush says
 
My friend's FB status today said this, "

.... so mad the health care bill passed, i love fighting with my insurance company for simple coverage, paying through the nose for simple hospital visits/copays/premiums, being denied coverage for existing conditions, and choosing between paying for prescriptions or food, and paying exuberant rates to pay for those who choose not to get healthcare...morons....don't believe everything rush says

That was well said!
 
Lighthouse, the old slippery slope argument is the logically the weakest argument. Most people are not delivering a litter of babies.

You don't want to take care of babies or elderly people who are dying? That surprises me.

huh?

What are you talking about? I am talking about abortion, IVF, assisted suicide?

Why should we pay for it? (not only that, they could easily discriminate us because they don't want to mess with the tax payers money)

And I was simply explaining why we have high infant morality (read the link) that people use so often. More likely, people in other countries just accept the death of premature baby as miscarriage.

This national healthcare would more like put dying people on the back burner and focus more on healthy people.
 
There is a contractual relationship between insurer and insured. Of course, individuals have no bargaining power against large corporations. State law regulates insurance and some federal laws exist. For example, federal law requires insurance companies to cover biologically-based mental illnesses. Kids with autism cannot get coverage because researchers have not proven that autism in biologically based, which leaves parents struggling to pay for treatment. Remember the drive through mastectomies? Federal law stopped that.

Now, the insurers are denying coverage to rape victims and victims of domestic violence. They refuse to cover babies that are too big or too small. The exclusions get more outrageous every year.
 
Lighthouse, you don't get to pick and choose the procedures that you want. What is clearly not covered are cosmetic and medically unnecessary procedures.

Most of our health care spending is on the elderly. I don't have a problem with that. They are the people most likely to need care. Palliative care is also needed. It is very expensive for families, yet it is cheaper than hospital care.
 
I want an insurance company that wont suck me dry just to provide health care for my children. My mom used to have great insurance coverage for all of us but somehow, in the late 80s, things changed...it seemed like those who were on the bottom were not given the opportunity to have health care because they couldnt afford it. Something is wrong with the picture here...

After that, my mom was forced to choose an HMO because her prenimums tripled while I was in high school.

I guess my mom should have uprooted us and moved to Canada according to Eve's intelligent suggestion.
But the insurance companies' profits are razor-thin (less than 3%). Premiums are going up because the cost of medical care is going up. If they charge you less, they either go bankrupt or have to make up for it by denying even more claims. You don't have a right to receive a product at a price that will drive the company out of business. The real question is what is driving up the costs of medicine. Anybody?

By the way, the insurance companies cannot stop anyone from going to the doctor and paying out of pocket. We would have that ability whether they existed or not. Also, if they are not keeping their end of the insurance contract, that's a call for more enforcement, not this Rube Goldberg boondoggle. However, I haven't seen any data about the extent to which this is a problem- only anecdotes.

My point is that except for fraud and problems of information asymmetry, insurance companies do not take away any options you otherwise would have- they only add to your existing set of options. It sounds like people are mad at the companies for not offering certain options that in reality are not economically viable.
 
You are uninformed.

Within the context of companies’ revenues, insurers skim off 15-20 percent of premium dollars for administrative costs and profits. In fact, an examination of insurers’ medical loss ratio — the fraction of revenue from a plan’s premiums that goes to pay for medical services– suggests that within the last 10 years, insurers have been spending less on medical care and more on administrative costs or profits.

For the 10 biggest insurers in the year 2006 (the year the insurers used for the 1 cent out of every dollar depiction above), profits were anywhere from 2 to 10 percent, or two to 10 pennies on the dollar. That’s two to 10 times as much as what the insurance industry group suggests in its illustrations.

The top five earning insurance companies averaged profits of $1.56 billion in 2008 and reported spending an average of “more than 18 percent of their revenues on marketing, administration, and profits.” That year, CEO compensation for these companies ranged from $3 million to $24 million.

Wonk Room Health Insurance Industry Fudges Data To Downplay Its Astronomical Profits

For specific companies profits see:

Fortune 500 2009: Industry: Health Care: Insurance and Managed Care
 
You are uninformed.
No I'm not. The data you provided proves it (and thank you for that :ty:). The average profit for the companies on that list is around 2.4%. If you weight the companies according to their revenues (i.e. add up all their profits and divide it by the sum of all their revenues), then it's around 3.1%. Either way, it's not exactly profit-land and the increase of insurance premiums certainly does reflect the increase in medical costs.

The Think Progress article talks mostly about profits, administration costs, and marketing costs taken together along with CEO pay. Not exactly what I was talking about.
 
If they are scratching and scraping to come up with a barely tolerable profit margin, where is all the money coming from for the lobbying?

Actually, medical costs go up because insurance premiums go up and put too many people out of reach of an affordable plan. They are forced to go uninsured, and doctors loose money on the patients that are unable to pay out of pocket at the time of treatment. Not to mention the catastrophic care costs that hospitals must eat as a result of revoked policies and denied claims. That lost revenue gets made up somewhere. Doctors and hospitals certainly don't write off billions in uninsured treatment that is not paid for. Suppliers don't donate goods to the doctors and hospitals. They must pay for goods in order to provide services. If they are not being reimbursed for a number of patients, the costs go up for those that are receiving reimbursement to make up for the deficit.
 
But the insurance companies' profits are razor-thin (less than 3%). Premiums are going up because the cost of medical care is going up. If they charge you less, they either go bankrupt or have to make up for it by denying even more claims. You don't have a right to receive a product at a price that will drive the company out of business. The real question is what is driving up the costs of medicine. Anybody?

By the way, the insurance companies cannot stop anyone from going to the doctor and paying out of pocket.
We would have that ability whether they existed or not. Also, if they are not keeping their end of the insurance contract, that's a call for more enforcement, not this Rube Goldberg boondoggle. However, I haven't seen any data about the extent to which this is a problem- only anecdotes.

My point is that except for fraud and problems of information asymmetry, insurance companies do not take away any options you otherwise would have- they only add to your existing set of options. It sounds like people are mad at the companies for not offering certain options that in reality are not economically viable.

Then why are there doctors turning patients down if they dont have insurance?
 
Reread the article. It says that profits are 2 - 10%. The insurance industries statistics are misleading. Remember lies, damn lies and statistics.

Spending more on administration than actual health care is crazy! That's more money spent pencil pushers than doctors. Sorry, we can't cover your medical care but we're busy coding and processing your denial.

Look at those CEO salaries and you know that someone is raking in the big bucks. And it's not us! Because you and I are not in the club, friend.
 
Then why are there doctors turning patients down if they dont have insurance?
I've never heard of that. I thought the problem was too many doctors are working pro bono for the uninsured and passing off the costs to everyone else. When I went without insurance, I would just call up the doctor and ask how much a visit costs out of pocket. I never got refused. If you're talking about surgery or some expensive procedure, it's not surprising they would want verification of ability to pay. That would be no different in a world without insurance, except in that world, you would have to be pretty rich or else you would have to finance the procedure and pay over months or even years, just like a car payment. In this world, insurance does provide that ability to pay for those who are not rich without making them take on debt to pay it off.

Reread the article. It says that profits are 2 - 10%. The insurance industries statistics are misleading. Remember lies, damn lies and statistics.
So I should only pay attention to one of your links and ignore the other, lest I be uninformed? Think Progress links to an NPR article which links to CNN Money for the year 2006. Back then, the average profit of companies on that list is 4.6%. The total profit to revenue ratio was 6%. Better than 3%, but still low as far as profit margins are concerned. That was then, this is now.

Spending more on administration than actual health care is crazy! That's more money spent pencil pushers than doctors. Sorry, we can't cover your medical care but we're busy coding and processing your denial.
Reread the article. It says that relative to the past, the ratio of spending on medical care to administration and profits has gone down. It never claimed that they actually spent more on administration and profits than they did medical costs. The graph it provides from Price Waterhouse Coopers shows that as of 2006, 80% of revenues goes towards medical costs.

Look at those CEO salaries and you know that someone is raking in the big bucks. And it's not us! Because you and I are not in the club, friend.
I've never cared about CEO pay any more than I care about the pay of professional athletes or movie stars. When billions of dollars and thousands of employees are at stake, you don't want to go on the cheap looking for a CEO. One wrong decision could cost the company billions and it doesn't make sense to risk billions just to save millions.

Likewise, the fact that I'm not in "the club" bothers me no more than the fact that I'm not among the ranks of professional athletes or movie stars. Perhaps if I wanted, I could have gone to business school and worked my butt off to prove myself a brilliant businessman worthy of having companies compete for my services at the tune of millions of dollars a year, but that's not the life I wanted.
 
Don't care about you due from Canada and there's no proof that many ADers has private insurance.

Canada is already to have government-run health care since US don't.


Canada's universal health care system is not exactly free FYI. It is a two-tiered system.

Based on my experience, the health care system run by federal/provincial government often run into too many problems. I have used some of private health care services in Canada and they have brought in better results and worthiness of money.
 
Are the illegal immigrants covered in the overhauled health care system?

If so, the Democrats are going to be in deep trouble for the 2010 U.S. Congressional Election.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top