California Bill AB 2027

[somedeafdudefromPNW]

Wirelessly posted

Flip, care to explain the Nordic education system?

If I am not mistaken, the average Finn is fluent in 3-5 languages by the time they get into highschool.

 

[flip]

A, many professionals I've encountered discuss the benefits of full immersion in one language for most efficient development rather than the cons of one vs. the other. But an argument against ASL that that several people have posed to me is some variation of the following: instead of the effort and time involved in sending my child to a school where voices-off prevails for half the day and she's on a van for 4 hours getting there and back, I could be using that time to just be with my child, bathing her in a flow of everyday language that occurs naturally. Because my daughter is likely getting something less than half the English input she would in a different environment, she'll likely experience a slower rate of development during these first few years. I think that's a pretty good argument, and yet, I'm also convinced that splitting her time between the two languages will ultimately provide more benefit in the long run, with two native languages available to her.

I am sure your intentions are good, but your knowledge on bilingualism is not up to par with your intentions. But don't worry, that's true for most parents I have met, and that's why we have professonials like Shel90 around, that can straighten things out.

 

[flip]

Wirelessly posted

Flip, care to explain the Nordic education system?

If I am not mistaken, the average Finn is fluent in 3-5 languages by the time they get into highschool.

Yes. It must be a reason the headquarter of World Federation of the Deaf is located in the captial of Finland

It's differences in education systems throughout scandinavia, so no similar model there I know of. Finland is known for high standards among both deaf and hearing students. Teachers have a high status and salary there, and that explains much, from the reports I have read.

For the rest of scandinavia, I haven't seen results on tests that are much better than other european countries. Among deaf people, sweden is known for it's somewhat good employment rate among deaf people and their bilingual programs, compared to denmark, that is known for the oposite both in employment rate and choice of education(mainstream).

Deaf education in finland used the bilingual model last time I checked.

 

[jillio]

We started signing before she was dx'ed at 15 months, we just increased it once we figured out she had a loss.

Again, I believe that a child learns language by exposure to it, using it everyday, not through a few minutes a week in pullout. She remains age appropriate in her academics (though she is a tiny bit behind in phonetic reading, she had not been exposed before this year to phonics). We are using this time to have her grow her second language through using it.

Had you been signing since birth? If not, ASL is not her native language. Had you been speaking to her since birth? If so, then spoken English would be classified as her native language. It is simply a matter of misuse and misunderstanding of the classification of native language.

However, my question remains the same. Why would you choose the language she is the weakest in as the language for her academic environment? For the sake of spoken English development. Isn't the concern of the academic environment that a child become educated in all of the academic subjects without undue impediment? Isn't it the most important that a child have full access to the curriculum in an academic environment? The educational environment in any situation or school is not intended to be used to promote a particular mode of choice. The educational environment is intended to educate. Never has it been a priority in any educational environment to foster development of a chosen mode at the expense of education in all the disciplines.

 

[somedeafdudefromPNW]

Yes. It must be a reason the headquarter of World Federation of the Deaf is located in the captial of Finland

It's differences in education systems throughout scandinavia, so no similar model there I know of. Finland is known for high standards among both deaf and hearing students. Teachers have a high status and salary there, and that explains much, from the reports I have read.

For the rest of scandinavia, I haven't seen results on tests that are much better than other european countries. Among deaf people, sweden is known for it's somewhat good employment rate among deaf people and their bilingual programs, compared to denmark, that is known for the oposite both in employment rate and choice of education(mainstream).

Deaf education in finland used the bilingual model last time I checked.

Nah... I was asking how someone can be fluent without total immersion.

 

[jillio]

I advocate for ASL for all children with a hearing loss. HOW DO THEY DISAGREE WITH ME????

And yet, you place your daughter in an oral educational environment. This inconsistency between what you say and what you do is where the disagreement occurs. Whether intended or not, the message the above action gives is, "Yeah, ASL is great to be used as a supplement when you have to, but spoken English rules, and it is the only way to go. ASL is secondary."

 

[jillio]

Wow, Jillio, you really are on a tear: Asking us to whip out and place our legislative credentials against your big swinging DC trip last week, mocking the size of our efforts to build our local school programs (and the schools themselves), sniffing at our efforts to promote ASL to other parents of kids with CIs or considering CIs, and now snidely ridiculing what we've seen as a long battle FJ has undergone to include ASL in her child's curriculum against an enormous opposition that apparently your years of Herculean effort didn't fix for those of us just entering the fray.

And yet, 20 years of visits to Capitol Hill and you couldn't get ASL on a list of options offered to new parents? I guess it's not the size of your 'what I did to better the world' list , but what you do with it.

Get off the high horse, GrendelQ. I listed those activities at the request of your bosom buddy.:roll:

And, in my area, ASL is offered as an option to new parents.

What makes you oralists so prone to the ad hominem? Lack of support for your position, or is nastiness just an innate characteristic that goes with the philosophy?

 

[jillio]

My priorities are the children's needs, not the parents. It is the children who are suffering by the bad decisions of many.

I support exposing all deaf children to spoken English and I have never stated otherwise since I became a member of AD. Nothing has changed.

Bingo. It is the needs of the child that are the first priority.

 

[jillio]

Then start supporting parents who want ASL and spoken language. Many bi-bi schools do not support the use of audition to access spoken English. They support only ASL-written English bilingualism with "speech skills". There is a difference.

Bi-bi schools use ASL as the language of instruction, because, as in any school, their mission is to educate children in all of the disciplines. What you are asking for is speech and hearing therapy. It is not the school's purpose to provide that at the sacrifice of education.

 

[jillio]

You are not reading the whole of her or my post.

Shel said that she knows professional who advocate for spoken language, just like I did.

If fluency in spoken language is such a wonderful benefit that education should be sacrificed for it, why exactly is it that those who advocate for it the strongest are also the most prone to misunderstanding, misreading, misinterpreting, interjecting what is not there, and in general, show very little comprehension of the simplest most straightforward post?

 

[jillio]

Those professionals who advocated oral-only deaf ed caused so much misery for my friends and I when we were growing up. Now, all of us from that preschool class use ASL as our primary language and wish we werent placed in classrooms where we were constantly left out, lost, and fighting to keep our heads above water. Same thing with social settings...we all paid a heavy price for these professionals' opinions.

The only people I have met who have advocated for oral-only deaf ed are hearing.

That has been my experience, as well. And according to the accounts of educational professionals and deaf all over this country, it has been their experience, too.

 

[jillio]

Yes. It must be a reason the headquarter of World Federation of the Deaf is located in the captial of Finland

It's differences in education systems throughout scandinavia, so no similar model there I know of. Finland is known for high standards among both deaf and hearing students. Teachers have a high status and salary there, and that explains much, from the reports I have read.

For the rest of scandinavia, I haven't seen results on tests that are much better than other european countries. Among deaf people, sweden is known for it's somewhat good employment rate among deaf people and their bilingual programs, compared to denmark, that is known for the oposite both in employment rate and choice of education(mainstream).

Deaf education in finland used the bilingual model last time I checked.

They still do.

 

[kokonut]

Some people believe that deaf kids need to learn spoken language from the start because there is a limited window of opportunity to learn to use the auditory pathways in their brains.

Quite right. But I am reminded that the term "deaf" could mean those with mild hearing loss all the way up to profound hearing loss. So, that's always in the back of my mind whenever people say the word "deaf." I am also amazed when I watch Youtube videos of kids with cochlear implants and how many of them respond well to, for example, a mother's question and have him/her respond accordingly in sentences without ever looking up. And even the voice and enuciation are quite clear, you wouldn't know they were wearing an implant. One I can think of out the many videos out there is in the "Hugumom" Youtube channel. It covers two adopted deaf girls from China who were implanted early on and are now 7 and 10 years old (or so they look). I mean when parents see these videos it becomes a powerful and compelling video on the power of accessing that limited window of opportunity to tap into that crucial auditory pathways. And the video really shows that. How could hearing parents upon seeing that video not think those two children were not successful in their auditory-oral upbringing via a cochlear implant? Of course, I don't know whether the parents have taught them ASL or sign language. The point being, many parents are certainly or would become aware of the limited window of opportunity that exists and is a medical fact. And I'm sure they'd be remiss if they didn't address it early on in their child's development.

 

[flip]

Quite right. But I am reminded that the term "deaf" could mean those with mild hearing loss all the way up to profound hearing loss. So, that's always in the back of my mind whenever people say the word "deaf." I am also amazed when I watch Youtube videos of kids with cochlear implants and how many of them respond well to, for example, a mother's question and have him/her respond accordingly in sentences without ever looking up. And even the voice and enuciation are quite clear, you wouldn't know they were wearing an implant. One I can think of out the many videos out there is in the "Hugumom" Youtube channel. It covers two adopted deaf girls from China who were implanted early on and are now 7 and 10 years old (or so they look). I mean when parents see these videos it becomes a powerful and compelling video on the power of accessing that limited window of opportunity to tap into that crucial auditory pathways. And the video really shows that. How could hearing parents upon seeing that video not think those two children were not successful in their auditory-oral upbringing via a cochlear implant? Of course, I don't know whether the parents have taught them ASL or sign language. The point being, many parents are certainly or would become aware of the limited window of opportunity that exists and is a medical fact. And I'm sure they'd be remiss if they didn't address it early on in their child's development.

This post is the largest flamebait I have seen so far here, though not good enough, you can do better! Come on, Kokonut.

 

[jillio]

Well, I can see there are still those around that want to talk about neurological topics without any understanding whatsoever of neurological topics.:roll:

Such gross misrepresentations based on a lack of comprehension regarding auditory pathways in the brain.:roll:

Really astonishing that someone who claims to be so full of information seems to think that those auditory centers of the brain just up and disappear in signing deaf.

Even more astounding is the fact that one claims to have an extensive background in research, and then uses YouTube videos as a source.

 

[kokonut]

This post is the largest flamebait I have seen so far here, though not good enough, you can do better! Come on, Kokonut.

Not flamebait but an actual observation of mine concerning those videos. Although that's for another thread since it'd be off topic here.

 

[flip]

Nah... I was asking how someone can be fluent without total immersion.

Ah, ok. I can answer that one, too. It's through formal instructions. It's done all over europe, and at least one foreign language is mandatory in most schools in europe. The reason is that english, german and french are major business languages, that most countries rely on for economical growth.

People become fluent in those languages yeah. I myself found I was better in english than most kids in my class when I lived in the states, even if I just had 4 years of english in a classroom, 2 hours a week, prior to that.

It's perhaps that it's harder to understand this for parents in countries where monolingualism in the education system is more common?

Of course, this depends on you having at least a native language or a first language can do, too.

 

[jillio]

Ah, ok. I can answer that one, too. It's through formal instructions. It's done all over europe, and at least one foreign language is mandatory in most schools in europe. The reason is that english, german and french are major business languages, that most countries rely on for economical growth.

People become fluent in those languages yeah. I myself found I was better in english than most kids in my class when I lived in the states, even if I just had 4 years of english in a classroom, 2 hours a week, prior to that.

It's perhaps that it's harder to understand this for parents in countries where monolingualism in the education system is more common?

Of course, this depends on you having at least a native language or a first language can do, too.

I do think that is more difficult for those who are monolingual, and used to a monolingual educational system, to understand.

One needs keep in mind, as well, that simply because one has a "first" language, and it is their only language, it does not in any way imply that they are fluent in that language. We see this all the time in oral deaf. English fluency is sadly lacking; but since it is the only language they have ever been provided, despite it being their first and only language, fluency is never achieved.

 

[GrendelQ]

I am sure your intentions are good, but your knowledge on bilingualism is not up to par with your intentions. But don't worry, that's true for most parents I have met, and that's why we have professonials like Shel90 around, that can straighten things out.

My knowledge of bilingualism? Are you suggesting that I'm wrong in educating my child bilingually and the arguments I'm opposing -- for monolingualism -- are correct? On what basis?

 

[shel90]

I dont understand all the talk of limited window of opportunity to gain fluency in English via the aural pathaways.

Many deaf people I know who grew up going BiBi programs had no problem gaining English fluency.

This is all about oralism, not fluency in English. It all goes back to the same old same old.