California Bill AB 2027

[GrendelQ]

Get off the high horse, GrendelQ. I listed those activities at the request of your bosom buddy.:roll:

No, Jillio, you know -- or should know -- better than that. But the teenager eye roll is right on par with what I'm seeing in your close-minded attitude on this board. It's one thing to provide the benefit of years of experience, and to give your strong opinion on a subject. It's quite another to play doctor in an irresponsible, abusive manner, one that wouldn't be tolerated outside this place in which you run rampant. You and I both know where you crossed the line, professionally and ethically, in this thread.

In terms of being on that high horse, you badgered FJ to justify her right to raise a deaf hild, dismissing the work she's done and then gleefully listed a set of activities any member of NAD and AGBell does in a week's time as if your walking up and down in front of a building had trumped the building of a school, the adding of ASL instruction to an oral program, and the communication of ways in which we can help add ASL to our children's curriculum. You are the one galloping on that high horse, my friend -- chapter one, once again.

You classify those with ASL as a first language, attending bi-bi schools for the deaf as oralists? You want to sit me down and get to know my feelings about that? I feel like you are flailing here, throwing random words as insults, desperately trying to maintain some status quo of us vs. them. Is it really so hard for you to watch connections being made on this forum between deaf and the new generation of parents of deaf children who want to learn from them, talk with them, that you feel the need to devise some artificial antagonism? So, you try to position those of us trying against enormous opposition to integrate our deaf children into the Deaf community, to identify as deaf, to ensure that they receive a solid ASL education, as the enemy? Why don't you do a bit of self-analysis about why you are on the attack, this time.

I'd value your experience as a hearing mother of a deaf child as a good data point except for your need to drown out all other perspectives and constantly, patronizingly voice on behalf of those on this board who are deaf whose accounts I want to understand. You are not the voice of the deaf and you are unreliable in your self-appointed role as interpreter.

 

[A]

I dont understand all the talk of limited window of opportunity to gain fluency in English via the aural pathaways.

Many deaf people I know who grew up going BiBi programs had no problem gaining English fluency.

This is all about oralism, not fluency in English. It all goes back to the same old same old.

Me either. It's silly.

 

[flip]

My knowledge of bilingualism? Are you suggesting that I'm wrong in educating my child bilingually and the arguments I'm opposing -- for monolingualism -- are correct? On what basis?

Well, it's telling that you managed to get into a fight with Jillio.

Your obsession with speech and listening, and what the CI is doing for your child is far from professonial. That's ok, you are a hearing mom with the best intentions and a deaf daughter. No one is perfect, and everyone is different. Experience will give you the answers, though you will have to wait some twenty years, or perhaps the rest of your life for the final answers. Meanwhile, it pays off to listen to professonials that know what they are talking about. That's perhaps also what you have done so far, and it's great.

 

[GrendelQ]

Well, it's telling that you managed to get into a fight with Jillio.

Your obsession with speech and listening, and what the CI is doing for your child is far from professonial. That's ok, you are a hearing mom with the best intentions and a deaf daughter. No one is perfect, and everyone is different. Experience will give you the answers, though you will have to wait some twenty years, or perhaps the rest of your life for the final answers. Meanwhile, it pays off to listen to professonials that know what they are talking about. That's perhaps also what you have done so far, and it's great.

Flip, could you mean my obsession with ASL and my child's education is unprofessional ( as I believe I've written to any significant degree only on those subjects--Unless there's some post or thread in particular where you see me exhibiting an obsession with speech and listening)?

otherwise, I'm sorry you see me as being unprofessional in my lofty position (as responder to someone's question about what professionals have given as a reason not to use ASL) in some way. You wrote that I was in error in thinking that a bilingual approach could benefit my daughter, rather than a monolingual approach: can you explain why you are against a bi-bi education, which we've chosen?

 

[flip]

Flip, could you mean my obsession with ASL and my child's education is unprofessional ( as I believe I've written to any significant degree only on those subjects--Unless there's some post or thread in particular where you see me exhibiting an obsession with speech and listening)?

otherwise, I'm sorry you see me as being unprofessional in my lofty position (as responder to someone's question about what professionals have given as a reason not to use ASL) in some way. You wrote that I was in error in thinking that a bilingual approach could benefit my daughter, rather than a monolingual approach: can you explain why you are against a bi-bi education, which we've chosen?

I saw your blog on Li-Li. It's always nice to read about caring mothers and their children, but hey, it was a lot of sounds, words, mappings, CI, speech etc. It almost looks like it's a hobby of yours, and that's fine. But it's not professonial, like a learner can get obsessed with ASL. Then again, not much wrong with it as long it does not prolong for years or one puts their agenda over what the child needs or choose.

Faire_jour is perhaps a caring a enaging mother, and I don't know her situation, but some of her comments is pretty rude, and she fail to gasp some basics of bilingualism. If you believe everything she is saying, and don't sense the erroneous logic, I am just praying that you listen to real professonials in the end.

I am sorry I expressed myself unclear, it was not the purpose to give an impression of me beeing against bi-bi education. You are also right, I read your post a bit to quick on what other professonials have said about ASL.

 

[flip]

GrendelQ, to me, as a deaf person, Jillio is pretty spot on regarding deafness, along with the CODAs and hearings in family with deaf people, compared to the rest of hearies on this board.

She also thinks and and talk about deafness like most other hearing people who have done both broad and narrow studies about human psychology and familar with deafness and linqustics at the university level, and gone through evaluation and quality control.

So, to me, she is not a self claimed voice, interpreter, drowning other deaf perspectives and so on. She is the oposite. A good ally and friend, that happens to dwell in the hearing world, but still understand and know many sides of the deaf experience.

I am not asking you to agree with Jillio or something, but you are putting down deaf people by implying that she is using us this way, IMHO.

 

[faire_jour]

Wirelessly posted

Wow, Jillio, you really are on a tear: Asking us to whip out and place our legislative credentials against your big swinging DC trip last week, mocking the size of our efforts to build our local school programs (and the schools themselves), sniffing at our efforts to promote ASL to other parents of kids with CIs or considering CIs, and now snidely ridiculing what we've seen as a long battle FJ has undergone to include ASL in her child's curriculum against an enormous opposition that apparently your years of Herculean effort didn't fix for those of us just entering the fray.

And yet, 20 years of visits to Capitol Hill and you couldn't get ASL on a list of options offered to new parents? I guess it's not the size of your 'what I did to better the world' list , but what you do with it.

Get off the high horse, GrendelQ. I listed those activities at the request of your bosom buddy.:roll:

And, in my area, ASL is offered as an option to new parents.

What makes you oralists so prone to the ad hominem? Lack of support for your position, or is nastiness just an innate characteristic that goes with the philosophy?

How is grendel an "oralist"??? li-li attends a bi-bi school and ASL is her first language and the mode of communication of their family! what more does someone have to do to NOT be accused of being an oralist and called names??

 

[faire_jour]

Wirelessly posted

First of all, why does grendel need to be "professional"? she is a mother of a deaf child, she has never claimed to be more than that...

second, how is valuing both languages being "obsessed with speech"?

and lastly, flip, what have i posted that was wrong? you may disagree with my opinions, but i'm not wrong

 

[kokonut]

I dont understand all the talk of limited window of opportunity to gain fluency in English via the aural pathaways.

Many deaf people I know who grew up going BiBi programs had no problem gaining English fluency.

This is all about oralism, not fluency in English. It all goes back to the same old same old.

No. It's about gaining and establishing auditory pathways early on for those with hearing aids and cochlear implants. I've said nothing about English fluency. And it's about aural-oral (or auditory-oral) upbringing.

 

[faire_jour]

Wirelessly posted

Also, flip, if grendel and i had listened to the vast majority of professionals, instead of the Deaf community, both our daughter's would have never been exposed to ASL.

there are linguists, psychologists, research and teachers advocating for ASL AND listening and spoken language.

 

[kokonut]

Both faire_jour and GrendelQ are doing the responsible thing as they best know how for their deaf/hh child. They come in here with open minds and a place to discuss their experiences yet they get attacked. Why? I am not in the position to pass personal judgement on parents on how they must raise their deaf/hh child in this forum. I am not in their shoes. I don't live their life on a day to day basis. Best to offer some advice, constructive suggestions, and give them a good luck send off hoping that their child will grow up successfully in a loving household.

It wouldn't surprise me if parents of a deaf/hh child wouldn't want to come in here seeing how parents are attacked here. The same reason parents wouldn't want to deal with the Deaf community because they end up getting attacked in how they feel best to raise their own deaf/hh child. That need to stop.

 

[jillio]

No, Jillio, you know -- or should know -- better than that. But the teenager eye roll is right on par with what I'm seeing in your close-minded attitude on this board. It's one thing to provide the benefit of years of experience, and to give your strong opinion on a subject. It's quite another to play doctor in an irresponsible, abusive manner, one that wouldn't be tolerated outside this place in which you run rampant. You and I both know where you crossed the line, professionally and ethically, in this thread.

In terms of being on that high horse, you badgered FJ to justify her right to raise a deaf hild, dismissing the work she's done and then gleefully listed a set of activities any member of NAD and AGBell does in a week's time as if your walking up and down in front of a building had trumped the building of a school, the adding of ASL instruction to an oral program, and the communication of ways in which we can help add ASL to our children's curriculum. You are the one galloping on that high horse, my friend -- chapter one, once again.

You classify those with ASL as a first language, attending bi-bi schools for the deaf as oralists? You want to sit me down and get to know my feelings about that? I feel like you are flailing here, throwing random words as insults, desperately trying to maintain some status quo of us vs. them. Is it really so hard for you to watch connections being made on this forum between deaf and the new generation of parents of deaf children who want to learn from them, talk with them, that you feel the need to devise some artificial antagonism? So, you try to position those of us trying against enormous opposition to integrate our deaf children into the Deaf community, to identify as deaf, to ensure that they receive a solid ASL education, as the enemy? Why don't you do a bit of self-analysis about why you are on the attack, this time.

I'd value your experience as a hearing mother of a deaf child as a good data point except for your need to drown out all other perspectives and constantly, patronizingly voice on behalf of those on this board who are deaf whose accounts I want to understand. You are not the voice of the deaf and you are unreliable in your self-appointed role as interpreter.

Kind of like when one member of CI circle notifies all the others to gather at AD and drown out the advocates for Bi-Bi education?

I am not an interpreter, nor have I ever claimed to be an interpreter. And I have many years worth of assurrances from the Deaf and the deaf that I indeed approach the entire subject from their perspective. In fact, I have been mistaken for deaf on more than one occasion based on nothing more than my ability to communicate correctly the deaf perspective.

FJ has quite a history around here. Something those that have been around awhile are aware of. Perhaps you don't know as much about things that have transpired as should prior to getting involved.

 

[jillio]

GrendelQ, to me, as a deaf person, Jillio is pretty spot on regarding deafness, along with the CODAs and hearings in family with deaf people, compared to the rest of hearies on this board.

She also thinks and and talk about deafness like most other hearing people who have done both broad and narrow studies about human psychology and familar with deafness and linqustics at the university level, and gone through evaluation and quality control.

So, to me, she is not a self claimed voice, interpreter, drowning other deaf perspectives and so on. She is the oposite. A good ally and friend, that happens to dwell in the hearing world, but still understand and know many sides of the deaf experience.

I am not asking you to agree with Jillio or something, but you are putting down deaf people by implying that she is using us this way, IMHO.

Thank you, flip. I am truly humbled by your words.

 

[jillio]

No. It's about gaining and establishing auditory pathways early on for those with hearing aids and cochlear implants. I've said nothing about English fluency. And it's about aural-oral (or auditory-oral) upbringing.

Uhh....those pathways are present at birth. They don't need to be established.

 

[somedeafdudefromPNW]

Isn't spoken languages nothing more than muscle movements the throat? (and face, if you're picky.)

So I am not sure why aural ability is so highly emphasized in spoken languages.

 

[somedeafdudefromPNW]

Furthermore, if you do retain some hearing, are you not exposed to sounds all of the time?

Kinda hard to escape from people talking in grocery stores. In your own home... and so on.

 

[jillio]

We've said the same time and time again, souggy.

 

[somedeafdudefromPNW]

The whole auditory pathway argument... seems to be against commonsense in term of everyday applications.

 

[jillio]

The whole auditory pathway argument... seems to be against commonsense in term of everyday applications.

It is. It is generally an argument used by those with a lack of understanding regarding the neurological.

 

[kokonut]

Isn't spoken languages nothing more than muscle movements the throat? (and face, if you're picky.)

So I am not sure why aural ability is so highly emphasized in spoken languages.

Feedback. For those who can hear their own voice such a feedback allows the person to regulate their speech, enunciation, voice inflection and such.