ASL with no fingerspelling

posts from hell said:
You woulda have been my A+ student.
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In my class last year I almost got into a full blown argument with one of the other hearing parents about it. While I don't consider myself any kind of an expert I do know quite a bit about the subject and I tend to agree with the approach. On the other hand I also understand as a hearing parent of a deaf child where it's a bit difficult due to the lack of proficiency in ASL. Especially in the early years when a child really needs language exposure. Deaf children of native proficient signers are exposed to language at the same level hearing kids of hearing parents are. The problem is when you have deaf kids born to hearing parents that are not fluent in sign language and gaining that fluency takes time. The deaf kid looses out on comprehensive language exposure while the hearing parent (and the deaf child) is learning SL.
 
I have never claimed to be a "linguist". Never studied it or plan to do so in the future. More interesting subject-Psychology-Cognitive Dissonance to study.
Incorporating words from other spoken languages goes on all time however doesn't appear to answer the question: why doesn't ASL have a specific sign for every word? I guess that is why Fingerspelling is still needed. Again why hasn't this "problem" been "handled back thousands of years ago" if in actuality sign languages existed back then? History, anyone?

Implanted Advanced Bionics-Harmony activated Aug/07
 
drphil said:
I have never claimed to be a "linguist". Never studied it or plan to do so in the future. More interesting subject-Psychology-Cognitive Dissonance to study.
Incorporating words from other spoken languages goes on all time however doesn't appear to answer the question: why does't ASL have a specific sign for every word? I guess that is why Fingerspelling is needed. Again why hasn't this "problem" been "handled back thousands of years ago" if in actuality sign languages existed back then?

Implanted Advanced Bionics-Harmony activated Aug/07
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we've tried to make this clear to you..... ASL is it's own language. it is not manual coded english. :)

So, no need to have every word signed.

Until then... can you just butt out because you obviously know nothing.
 
drphil said:
I have never claimed to be a "linguist". Never studied it or plan to do so in the future. More interesting subject-Psychology-Cognitive Dissonance to study.
Incorporating words from other spoken languages goes on all time however doesn't appear to answer the question: why doesn't ASL have a specific sign for every word? I guess that is why Fingerspelling is still needed. Again why hasn't this "problem" been "handled back thousands of years ago" if in actuality sign languages existed back then? History, anyone?

Implanted Advanced Bionics-Harmony activated Aug/07
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Not only does ASL not have a sign for every word, the syntax and grammar are different that English. ASL is a language in and of itself which is not English. ASL and English are mutually exclusive. Actually once you get to understand ASL you will find that it is a far more efficient way to communicate that English. MCE's on the other hand are intended to sign every word with following English syntax and grammer. An MCE makes English visual to aid in English literacy but is cumbersome to use as a mode of communication. Anyone please correct me if I have misstated anything.
 
Posts from hell: if ASL is a "complete language" why is MCE used? How can one
converse in ASL if a "large number of words" are non-existent in "signs"? Without Fingerspelling coming to the rescue? Interesting experiment: can one actually sign in ASL: a Journey into the Deaf-World, Harlan Lane et al?

Implanted Advanced Bionics-Harmony activated Aug/07
 
posts from hell said:
we've tried to make this clear to you..... ASL is it's own language. it is not manual coded english. :)

So, no need to have every word signed.

Until then... can you just butt out because you obviously know nothing.
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Factual.
 
drphil said:
...Incorporating words from other spoken languages goes on all time however doesn't appear to answer the question: why doesn't ASL have a specific sign for every word?
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Why doesn't English have an English word for everything? Why doesn't French have a French word for everything?

Spoken languages don't have words in their own languages for everything, so why should ASL? Why do you attempt to set a higher standard for ASL than you do for spoken languages?

It takes time to incorporate and spread new words (written/spoken) and new signs (manual/visual). English and ASL each had to create terms for "electronic mail," then evolve into "e-mail."

I guess that is why Fingerspelling is still needed. Again why hasn't this "problem" been "handled back thousands of years ago" if in actuality sign languages existed back then? History, anyone?
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I explained it to you before. It's not a "problem" so it doesn't need handling, fixing, or solving.

English, as we know and use it now, didn't exist thousands of years ago. It developed, changed, grew, spread, and changed some more. That's what all languages do. That's why it requires experts to translate ancient languages because they've changed so much over time.

There, that's your "history."
 
drphil said:
Posts from hell: if ASL is a "complete language" why is MCE used? How can
converse in ASL if a "large number of words" are non-existent in "signs"? Without Fingerspelling coming to the rescue? Interesting experiment: can one actually sign in ASL: a Journey into the Deaf-World, Harlan Lane et al?

Implanted Advanced Bionics-Harmony activated Aug/07
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I don't want to respond for PFH and I think I answered your question in the post above. MCE's are used for teaching English litercy for deaf kids. Some people use MCE's for communication however it is not very efficient. What you have to understand is that English is a very chatty langage and to get a point or concept across you don't need that many words. You have to step out of the English box then perhaps you will understand.
 
drphil said:
Posts from hell: if ASL is a "complete language" why is MCE used?
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Do you want the ugly truth?

MCE systems (including the SEE versions) were created by hearing "experts" as a marketing ploy, and forced upon public education. Follow the money trail.

Especially in 19th Century America, schools for the deaf had no problem teaching English literacy to their students without the aid (interference) of MCE or SEE systems.

How do YOU explain that?

How can
converse in ASL if a "large number of words" are non-existent in "signs"? Without Fingerspelling coming to the rescue? Interesting experiment: can one actually sign in ASL: a Journey into the Deaf-World, Harlan Lane et al?
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Guess what? I've had perfectly fine ASL conversations with deaf individuals who were totally illiterate in English (no fingerspelling used). Not every deaf person attends American schools (deaf people immigrate to the US, too).

Also, what's with capitalizing fingerspelling? It's not a proper noun.
 
drphil said:
I have never claimed to be a "linguist". Never studied it or plan to do so in the future. More interesting subject-Psychology-Cognitive Dissonance to study.
Incorporating words from other spoken languages goes on all time however doesn't appear to answer the question: why doesn't ASL have a specific sign for every word? I guess that is why Fingerspelling is still needed. Again why hasn't this "problem" been "handled back thousands of years ago" if in actuality sign languages existed back then? History, anyone?

Implanted Advanced Bionics-Harmony activated Aug/07
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ASL doesn't have a sign for "every word" because NO language has a sign for "every word" ...

If you'd like to get involved with explaining how ASL works ... I'd suggest becoming conversationally fluent first - it's inappropriate for someone ignorant in the a specific language to comment on the linguistic "failures" of that language - especially if can't even have a 10min basic conversation in it.
.... which, incidentally is why I don't comment on the what I may perceive "failings" of Chinese, German, French etc ... because I know too little about them to be able to make an EDUCATED (thus valid) post/comment about them....

IF you really want to talk about ASL ... go get fluent (we'll even help you) then you'll have the right to "explain" things about it.
 
English is quite a thief! It has stolen...uhh...I mean borrowed hundreds of words from over a hundred languages of the world and continue to doing so even now!

Quite a thief, isn't it?!
 
drphil said:
Posts from hell: if ASL is a "complete language" why is MCE used? How can one
converse in ASL if a "large number of words" are non-existent in "signs"? Without Fingerspelling coming to the rescue? Interesting experiment: can one actually sign in ASL: a Journey into the Deaf-World, Harlan Lane et al?

Implanted Advanced Bionics-Harmony activated Aug/07
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Everyone else responded.. They nailed it. Even the hearing people, oooo.
 
drphil said:
Posts from hell: if ASL is a "complete language" why is MCE used? How can one
converse in ASL if a "large number of words" are non-existent in "signs"? Without Fingerspelling coming to the rescue? Interesting experiment: can one actually sign in ASL: a Journey into the Deaf-World, Harlan Lane et al?

Implanted Advanced Bionics-Harmony activated Aug/07
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My hearing husband is a good example of why MCE's are used. My husband, among other things is an English teacher. My husband thinks in Engllish.

I speak Mulitple languages, I do not always think in english. I Code-switch alot. My husband does NOT code-switch well at all.

I had to teach him some SEE signs in order for him to be able to communicate with me manually. ASL IS a langauge wit it's own Syntax and grammer, and he is having a hard time getting the hang of those.

MCE's are for the convience of hearing people who need to communicate with Deaf people.

If my husband doesn't understand, " I go store" to mean, "i am going to the store", it doesn't mean the ASL is incomplete as a langauge, only that his knowledge of ASL is incomplete.

Overcharging at 2 cent :P
 
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Wirelessly posted (Blackberry Curve 8310)

MCE (manually coded English) is primarily used as a mode to show ENGLISH visually...

Most of the people who use MCE are new signers, who's first language is ENGLISH - they have difficulty learning ASL's grammar (as do most people who learn a new language) ... As such when these people (who think in English) are signing they tend to retain a more "English form" to their signing .... Very much like when French/English immersion students are learning both languages they will sometimes apply language rules from one language to the other - in the case of French&English the result is a Pidgen called "Franglais" ...which is a spoken language equivalent to what MCE is to ASL.

Bill - you have a number of misconceptions, ignorances (meaning lack of knowledge) and prejudices about ASL ... I'm not sure if this is because you had a negative experience when you starting associating with CHS, or if you feel that if you learn and use ASL people will think differently of you (look down to you, think you're 'stupid' etc) or what the issue is ... However I would encourage you to make a choice:

A) consider learning more about ASL from local ASL users (many of whom are well respected professionals, and many of whom, like myself also speak) so that you can learn what ASL is REALLY like

Or

B) refrain from posting about ASL while you are ignorant about the topic.

CHS has a number of ASL classes, and the T.O. Area has a number of opportunities to socialize with ASLers (many of whom also speak) which would allow you to actually learn about what ASL really is - you may be surprised and find that if you give it an honest chance you may even like it ...heck, you may make some fantastic new friends who share much in common with you - as well as having a slightly different perspective (always great for conversations!!)

If you are interested in learning some basic ASL, and have a webcam - I'd be happy to show you some basic signs using one of the many free IM programs which have simultaneous video and text capabilities.


If you aim is to be informative and helpful to others - please stick to posting on topics in which you are well versed/educated ... So that others looking for information are able to find accurate comments by individuals well versed/educated and informed on which they post.

Mis-information based on prejudice & ignorance is almost always worse and more harmful than no information at all.
 
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rockdrummer said:
In my class last year I almost got into a full blown argument with one of the other hearing parents about it. While I don't consider myself any kind of an expert I do know quite a bit about the subject and I tend to agree with the approach. On the other hand I also understand as a hearing parent of a deaf child where it's a bit difficult due to the lack of proficiency in ASL. Especially in the early years when a child really needs language exposure. Deaf children of native proficient signers are exposed to language at the same level hearing kids of hearing parents are. The problem is when you have deaf kids born to hearing parents that are not fluent in sign language and gaining that fluency takes time. The deaf kid looses out on comprehensive language exposure while the hearing parent (and the deaf child) is learning SL.
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That's why my son attends a Deaf school so he's around native signers all day. We sign as much as we can at home, but even after 2 years of intensive college level study, I still don't consider myself proficient enough to be a language model.
 
Anij said:
Most of the people who use MCE are new signers, who's first language is ENGLISH - they have difficulty learning ASL's grammar (as do most people who learn a new language) ... As such when these people (who think in English) are signing they tend to retain a most "English form" to their signing ....
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It doesn't help that a common misconception is that ASL is just English with your hands, so a lot of people try to learn it that way simply because they don't know any better.
 
drphil said:
How can one converse in ASL if a "large number of words" are non-existent in "signs"?
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There is not a corresponding sign for every English word for the very simple reason that there doesn't need to be because ASL doesn't communicate words, it communicates concepts.
 
Mountain Man said:
There is not a corresponding sign for every English word for the very simple reason that there doesn't need to be because ASL doesn't communicate words, it communicates concepts.
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And if I may add, it's also a visual and spatial language. Not spoken or written.
 
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