ASL with no fingerspelling

[Daredevel7]

I've seen several posts saying that ASL does NOT need fingerspelling. Fingerspelling is only used for names, clarification, or basically "shortcuts" for English words. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I've been trying to wrap my head around this. I am not fluent in ASL, but I do know enough to hold a conversation. So I've been thinking about how this is done. It seems that one would have to know most, if not all, basic signs in order to convey a complex idea/thing.

Signs I keep thinking of are "toilet", "emergency" and "insurance", which involve fingerspelling "t", "e", and "i". (Perhaps it is actually SEE? Again, correct me if I'm wrong). In order to convey those words, would you need multiple signs? Like for emergency, perhaps using signs for sudden, serious, and problem. Or for toilet, using signs for water, bowl, etc. Something like that. Is that how it would go if you want to completely eliminate fingerspelling from your signing?

 

[posts from hell]

Mmm..

you can converse in ASL without using fingerspelling. Theres fast fingerspelling just because its faster to fingerspell a certain thing.

Most people mix up English and ASL so that is where all the confusion comes in.

For name signs - I conversed with a guy who replied to me with a name sign in where I was asking him for his name and..he signed to me. i was like.. whats your name, he repeated.. i was then like.. uhh.. he said "OH you want my name in english?" I said yes.. He spelled it out. So thats where my thinking changed.

insurance??? "car protection have" in a specific discussion will convey the idea of you having insurance.

emergency? What context? Many ways to say it without using "emergency"

Toilet? "pee bowl" But this sign is pretty much politically corrected to the max... I have ways I would say it that people might be offended by it. They can screw off.

I try not to use initialized signs as much... It's still incorporated though.

 

[Anij]

It really depends ... in casual daily conversations you may not need to finger spell much at all, except for loan signs, names (people, streets, places etc).

In an educations setting, especially high level education - fingerspelling is often used quite extensively. When discussing various technical terms and specifics it is often the case that knowing the exact English/French/Spanish/German etc written form is critical. For example, as a theology student - I needed to know the differences between:
"Church" & "Ekklesia"
"Torah", "Pentateuch" (& "The Law")
"Old Testament", "Hebrew Bible" & "TaNaK"

I also needed to know when my Profs used a specific word in context - so using a sign that would be perfectly fine for "lay conversations", in a classroom context would not provide the exact terminology that I needed. This isn't a "failing" of ASL at all however, it's actaully an example of what happens in ALL living languages.

In English, we have "native English words" - words that are specifically English.. however we also have many many words which are borrowed from other languages and then adopted into English usage so much so that we often forget that it's happened. English borrows words from French including: Foyer, Naive, Passé ... likewise French borrows many common words from English including: hotdog, leader, weekend, news, cool.

All living languages will at times "borrow" from others - it's not a sign of a linguistic weakness on the part of one language, or superiority on the part of the other ... rather it's an example of what naturally happens if people are exposed to multiple languages... this "borrowing" allows specific concepts (contained in a word or phrase) from one language to be utilized by another language by simply "adopting" that word or phrase unchanged so as to avoid needing to create an entirely new word/phrase (which will lose any connotations attached in the original). A good example of this is the German word "doppelgänger" which is borrowed and used in English - thus retaining all of it's connotations etc from the original German.

When ASL using English (or French etc) words fingerpelled out as part of a conversation etc - it's really no different than someone in English electing to insert a "foreign word" into the conversations ... such as saying "please leave your shoes in the Foyer and then join us in the kitchen" instead of saying "please leave your shoes in the front entrance way and then join us in the kitchen"

Of course there are situations in which one may intentional alter the amount of fingerpelling they use - for instance if someone is teaching very young children, they may elect to use less fingerspelling (aside from loan signs and names) because it's easier for little ones to understand, whereas in a university setting where highly technical and specific information is being taught more fingerspelling may intentionally be used so that specific written vocabulary is transmitted (important for students who need to connect specific technical words they read, see and then write in their papers/assignments etc)


I hope that helps !

 

[Daredevel7]

Thanks PFH and Anji. I have a much better idea now.

PFH, you said that you try not to use initialized signs. I'm assuming that is fingerspelling the first letter of the word and doing a sign with it. Would "hospital" be an example of a initialized sign?

 

[drphil]

Fingerspelling is NECESSARY because ASL doesn't have a SPECIFIC SIGN for every word. Whether this true in say British Sign Language,French Sign Language etc. Not sure.
Perhaps due to inherent problem of using hand motions to convey "information". Why this problem wasn't solved WITHOUT THE USE OF FINGERSPELLING say 2000 years ago if it existed than?
Seems Harlan Lane et al haven't "studied this matter".

Implanted Advanced Bionics-Harmony activated Aug/07

 

[Reba]

...Toilet? "pee bowl" But this sign is pretty much politically corrected to the max... I have ways I would say it that people might be offended by it. They can screw off....

Standing there crossing your legs while looking desperate will work.

 

[TWA]

Fingerspelling is NECESSARY because ASL doesn't have a SPECIFIC SIGN for every word. Whether this true in say British Sign Language,French Sign Language etc. Not sure.
Perhaps due to inherent problem of using hand motions to convey "information". Why this problem wasn't solved WITHOUT THE USE OF FINGERSPELLING say 2000 years ago if it existed than?
Seems Harlan Lane et al haven't "studied this matter".

Implanted Advanced Bionics-Harmony activated Aug/07

LOL, please don't pretend to be a linguist if you aren't one.

There is no "inherent problem" using hand motions to convey information. In fact, if you're going to compare modalities of spoken versus signed languages, using handshapes and body orientation is a vastly more articulate and adaptable mode than speech sounds.

 

[rockdrummer]

In my ASL classes we are taught that for small words they are fingerspelled just because it's fast and easy. Words like AT or IN. Basically 2, 3 and sometimes even 4 letter words are commonly fingerspelled instead of using the sign for them. However I think either is proper. We are also taught that you would fingerspell if there is not a sign for a given word or if you don't know the sign for a given word. Anyone please correct me if I am wrong.

 

[rockdrummer]

Thanks PFH and Anji. I have a much better idea now.

PFH, you said that you try not to use initialized signs. I'm assuming that is fingerspelling the first letter of the word and doing a sign with it. Would "hospital" be an example of a initialized sign?

I think initializing signs is more of an Englishy thing (again anyone please correct me if I am wrong) and stems from the MCE's but not from ASL. If I understand correctly in ASL signs are not initialized.

 

[Reba]

Fingerspelling is NECESSARY because ASL doesn't have a SPECIFIC SIGN for every word. Whether this true in say British Sign Language,French Sign Language etc. Not sure.

It's true for spoken languages, too. English borrow from the French, French borrow from Americans, Americans borrow from Yiddish, and so on. It's no big deal. It doesn't mean any one language is less adequate than another.

Perhaps due to inherent problem of using hand motions to convey "information". Why this problem wasn't solved WITHOUT THE USE OF FINGERSPELLING say 2000 years ago if it existed than?

When I speak to another hearing person in English and they want to know my name I speak it and spell it (my first and last names are commonly misspelled). When I give my street address to someone, I always have to spell it. Does that mean oral/aural American English is a "problem?" No more than any other language can be considered a "problem."

It wasn't a problem 2000 years ago, so it didn't need "solving."

Seems Harlan Lane et al haven't "studied this matter".

Have you actually read all the ASL linguistic research?

 

[Bottesini]

PFH, don't you spell names for medications? Or just count on never getting sick so you won't need those?

 

[somedeafdudefromPNW]

Fingerspelling is NECESSARY because ASL doesn't have a SPECIFIC SIGN for every word. Whether this true in say British Sign Language,French Sign Language etc. Not sure.
Perhaps due to inherent problem of using hand motions to convey "information". Why this problem wasn't solved WITHOUT THE USE OF FINGERSPELLING say 2000 years ago if it existed than?
Seems Harlan Lane et al haven't "studied this matter".

Implanted Advanced Bionics-Harmony activated Aug/07

So how does English handle foreign languages? Words like sushi, pierogi, pho, kimchi, sauerkraut, donair (in Turkish or gryo in Greek), satay, hakarl? None of those words belong to native English. Please note I didn't appropriate these words into the correct characters such as phở and döner.

 

[posts from hell]

PFH, don't you spell names for medications? Or just count on never getting sick so you won't need those?

oh yes.. I love some medications... But why do I need to spell it out when all i mainly do is take the unreadable script to the pharmacy?

 

[posts from hell]

Thanks PFH and Anji. I have a much better idea now.

PFH, you said that you try not to use initialized signs. I'm assuming that is fingerspelling the first letter of the word and doing a sign with it. Would "hospital" be an example of a initialized sign?

Hospital... The red cross symbol on the arm is actually correctly conveyed with the "H" handshape. Some people you will see use the back of their two fingers to "paint" the vertical red part down their arm.

While there are some signs that seems to use initialized signs, its more of a handshape that is conveying the image.

Insurance - the one with the I sign going sideways is an example of initialized sign though.

 

[posts from hell]

I think initializing signs is more of an Englishy thing (again anyone please correct me if I am wrong) and stems from the MCE's but not from ASL. If I understand correctly in ASL signs are not initialized.

Yeah, Watching youtubes of old sign languages... The old timers don't have much initialized signs as the current users do.

It really happened after all the SEE interjections, and all modes of trying to say that ASL was bad for the english language... Then in the community we all absorbed these stuff... Guess where the problem started?? hearing people

But it's looking up these days.. Less and less SEE are being used. More people are recognizing that ASL is actually great.

 

[posts from hell]

LOL, please don't pretend to be a linguist if you aren't one.

There is no "inherent problem" using hand motions to convey information. In fact, if you're going to compare modalities of spoken versus signed languages, using handshapes and body orientation is a vastly more articulate and adaptable mode than speech sounds.

Factual.

 

[posts from hell]

Fingerspelling is NECESSARY because ASL doesn't have a SPECIFIC SIGN for every word. Whether this true in say British Sign Language,French Sign Language etc. Not sure.
Perhaps due to inherent problem of using hand motions to convey "information". Why this problem wasn't solved WITHOUT THE USE OF FINGERSPELLING say 2000 years ago if it existed than?
Seems Harlan Lane et al haven't "studied this matter".

Implanted Advanced Bionics-Harmony activated Aug/07

In the german language they have words that the english dont. how do we handle that?! oh no, we're dooooooomed!!!!! not.

BTW, you can see how many people here are telling you that what you're thinking is not correct.. (everyone.)

 

[Bottesini]

LOL, please don't pretend to be a linguist if you aren't one.

There is no "inherent problem" using hand motions to convey information. In fact, if you're going to compare modalities of spoken versus signed languages, using handshapes and body orientation is a vastly more articulate and adaptable mode than speech sounds.

Arghhh..... Noooo,,,,,,,,,,,

(oh nevermind, I guess I was using a lot of body orientation and facial exression to convey those)

 

[rockdrummer]

It's funny... I take these ASL classes and they are full of a bunch of hearing parents with deaf kids. Ultimately the subject of MCE's and English come up and I am always the one (the only one) that questions why ASL is not used as L1 and English taught as L2. That usually meets with blank stares and confusion even from deaf instructors. This class I am in currently is the first one where the instructor (hearing) actually said she can understand where I am coming from.

 

[posts from hell]

It's funny... I take these ASL classes and they are full of a bunch of hearing parents with deaf kids. Ultimately the subject of MCE's and English come up and I am always the one (the only one) that questions why ASL is not used as L1 and English taught as L2. That usually meets with blank stares and confusion even from deaf instructors. This class I am in currently is the first one where the instructor (hearing) actually said she can understand where I am coming from.

You woulda have been my A+ student.