It it really the deaf/Deaf community?

[Angel]

So I asked a question to everybody. I said , do you know why hearing parents left the thread or didnt come here at the first point? Do you think you might have a responsibility in it?

If somebody can say "maybe this is the part I did wrong" , then we can re-invite the parents and say here is a step and ask if they really think they have no responsibility in it either? Step by step it can develop into a mutual understanding.

Yes as matter of fact I know I'm partly blame for some of it and I acknowledge my mistake and I did apologized, I'm trying to be neutral and show more supportive toward the hearing parent's choices/decision etc.

I remember one of the member here asked me "you want the best for your child, want your child to have as many options in their life right? if your child was blind, would you deny a laser surgery to restore sight?" I just sat there not knowing what to say, I realized that these parents wasn't trying to make their children "hearing" like them. Sometimes mind can make wrong assumptions and make up things that are just not true, and that exactly what happened. I've been wrong on some things I've said and I'm still learning and willing to listen.

 

[doubletrouble]

Angel: That's a step in the right direction... I applaud you and your efforts to be more open minded. I know it isn't easy.

 

[Jolie77]

It is about how one would take it with a grain of salt and to absorb it in and then rather being defensive.

Sure, We may have said things that were harsh or said things that were not meant to be. That is when one gets the emotional aspect into the play. When that comes hand in hand, it always results into a "blame" game. In this case, We are trying to understand what is the metaphor or the backbone of why hearing parents feels rejected by the deaf community or why a deaf person would feel rejected by the hearing community.

I'd say in overall, Responsibility plays a huge part in this but before they take the responsibility for it, one has to absorb it in. To be articulate, you'd also need to understand where both sides comes from. That is something that has always resulted in a battle between both communities. Respect is also a 2 way street. It takes two to tango and all that.

Before we can look at this as a group, we also must look at it as an individual issue because how can we find the middle ground of this when we are looking at a group alone? I think in order to understand how this flaw can be worked out is by looking at an individual to bypass it and after that, we can also work on the group. United we stand, Divided we fall.

 

[Hermes]

Ok, thanks Sybil.

I still love you even if you call me Sybil

You can keep hitting me, you will always find my other cheek turned to you.

-

 

[Babyblue]

To be honest. I would be offended if an outsider that doesn't know my situation tell me how to raise my child.

By Saying that parents are the one that has to raise that child.

If they are doing what they think is best for them let them.

I know alot of children hearing or deaf was raised in all kinds of differences. One can say could have, should have, and this is how the parent want to raise them.

Now I can not find no evidence that raising a child with a CI totally oral to be child abuse. But I can find it to be against the Deaf culture.

Alot of deafs may be against it. But it is the parents that are doing what they think its best for their child.

I can go back and ask.... If my parents done "this" or "that". That is not going to help. I know my parents did their best. I don't dwell on how they could have raised me. That to me would be uncalled for. I'm just not talking about deaf issues but in child rearing in general.

The parents will be the one to face their child if what they have done in the past by their child.

I'm Simply saying it is up to the parents.

So if we sat here with a general forum of child rearing it would be a complete mess!
Especially when it come to one that how one thinks it is the best for Their child

We may not all agree but as long the parent provide the best under Their circumstances we really, truely have no say.

We can give them advice. But we can not criticize them.

 

[jillio]

You are the original poster of this thread , so there was 3 of them. Saying "they should do this, I dont see that happening" is not taking the self responsibility you were asking for. Of course once you say "hearing parents have to do this" nobody else will take responsibility either. It needs to start from somewhere. Since you started this thread, you said all those things about taking responsibility, being honest, not being defensive , do you think you have got a responsibility in those parents leaving or not coming to this thread to begin with?

Everybody else can answer this question for themselves . Then we will go to hearing parents and ask them to take responsibility too. This is what you wanted to do right?

-

I was also very honest in an earlier post regarding my initial reaction to my son's diagnosis, I was very honest regarding my experiences with the deaf community, and I was very hones regarding my motives for entering into the deaf community. I have not been defensive in the least. If you can point me to a post that you would have considered to be defensive on my part, I will be happy to go back and read it objectively.

I am talking about personal responsibility. That is quite different from accepting responsibility for another's action or inaction. To accept responsibility for another person's lack of contribution to this thread would be to say that there is someone to blame. That is what we are trying to get away from. Taking responsibility for one's own feeling and motives is what I am trying to get at. What I am trying to get away from is the constant "It was their fault! That's why I did what I did."

No where have I proscribed what "hearing parents have to do" other than to say if they want their views validated, then they must also validate the views of the deaf. That holds true in the reverse, as well.

IMO, no one is responsible for anyone coming to or not coming to this thread. If they choose to come here, it is because they feel they have something to say, or because they want to see what others have to say. If they choose not to, then it is because they either don't have anything to say, or do not want to see what others are saying. One is either willing to endure a bit of discomfort in order to engage in productive discourse, or one is not. No one else is responsible for that willingness or that unwillingness but the individual who exhibits it.

 

[jillio]

One of the arguments from the Deaf community against the hearing parents is that they are trying to "fix" their child to be as normal as possible, meaning they must listen and speak like a normal child. I don't quite think it's that simple. I was exploring the possibility that a hearing parent may not have a problem with ASL itself but rather the byproduct of surrounding yourself in ASL, which is how they convey their feelings (or perhaps some other social differences from hearing people). I think this is evident when you see how a fluent ASL interpreter talks differently from a deaf person who uses ASL primarily.

Perhaps hearing parents accept the difference in their child in terms of deafness and different needs from a hearing child, but does not want to accept an extra level of "different" that is brought out by a culture. I hope that makes sense?

Ah, and that is when we step beyond the language, and into the culture. Yes, it makes perfect sense, and is actually quite insightful. And that is what I am attempting to get at. What is the fear behind the cultural avoidance?

 

[jillio]

Hermes, I see you are a very smart and articulate person.

From what I observe, jillio is trying to ask all of us to internalise our own feelings and philosophies. In order to ask for change, we need to change ourselves, aye?

I agree that there needs to be a common ground for everyone and that is mutual respect.

In order to have freedom of speech, one has to give freedom of speech. No one here has yet asked anyone here to do the "shut up and/or leave" in this thread. I would hope no one does this as I have learned a lot from others in such a short period of time.

It is mutual respect we all want as a common ground and we all worry about our future generation's education. After all, they are going to be our future educators/presidents/you name it.

That is exactly what I am saying, Mrs. Bucket. Quite simple, isn't it? Simple in concept, but difficult in practice. It requires us all to make some effort.

 

[jillio]

I beg to differ, how do you expect hearing parents to be willing to stick around and participate when you're not being fair on both sides, when I say this it is because I'm seeing the exactly same thing as Hermes here about what you said things like "not being defensive" , "not accusing anybody" , "not talking on behalf of others" , "taking self responsibility" etc. (Sorry Hermes, I took your words out of your post) and you're not applying this to everyone. Why is that?

Then you say CI is not related to this thread but you still allow others to continue talking about it, I don't understand and I don't see the fairness in this, I'm sorry

Can you give me some specific examples of when I have not applied that fairly to all that have contributed? I will be more than happy to look at the examples you provide, and either make amends, or make explanation.

 

[jillio]

I'm sorry if I speak on your behalf, jillio, I apologise in advance.

When one tells another person not to get emotionally involved, over-analyze sentences, read between words or even get hyper-sensitive, one will have to remove themselves out of the situation.

It calls for a cool mind during those situations. Suppose a parent had their young children with them and a heated discussion about CI came in between the doctor and the parent, the parent cannot become emotionally charged in front of the children.

This is where thinking outside of the box comes in and internally thinking is important. Yes, it is easier said than done. Self-projecting feelings onto the children causes unnecessary fear.

I have total respect for parents, both deaf and hearing, that are involved with their children's life. CI, to me, is just a tool. Unfortunately some people feel the need to label the CI and implanted babies and children as robots which I feel is so wrong.

This I suspect causes deep rift between deaf and hearing people. It's the unknown that I mentioned earlier in a post. They don't know much about the CI and what wonders it can do for a child's life.

No apologies necessary, Mrs. Bucket. You interpret me very acurrately!

 

[jillio]

It was said that no one wanted to be the first to step up and be honest about their feelings. Allow me to refer back to post #168 and this quote:

Well, let me be the first hearing parent to say it. "I was devastated when I found out my son was deaf. I did not want a deaf child, I did not plan for a deaf child, and I did not know what to do with a deaf child." That is a normal human reaction, and one that all hearing parents have. The question is not whether they have such a reaction, but whether they can honestly admit to that reaction in order to deal with it.


That quote is my own.

 

[jillio]

It is about how one would take it with a grain of salt and to absorb it in and then rather being defensive.

Sure, We may have said things that were harsh or said things that were not meant to be. That is when one gets the emotional aspect into the play. When that comes hand in hand, it always results into a "blame" game. In this case, We are trying to understand what is the metaphor or the backbone of why hearing parents feels rejected by the deaf community or why a deaf person would feel rejected by the hearing community.

I'd say in overall, Responsibility plays a huge part in this but before they take the responsibility for it, one has to absorb it in. To be articulate, you'd also need to understand where both sides comes from. That is something that has always resulted in a battle between both communities. Respect is also a 2 way street. It takes two to tango and all that.

Before we can look at this as a group, we also must look at it as an individual issue because how can we find the middle ground of this when we are looking at a group alone? I think in order to understand how this flaw can be worked out is by looking at an individual to bypass it and after that, we can also work on the group. United we stand, Divided we fall.

Excellent post, Jolie. You have stated my intention well.

 

[shel90]

Yes as matter of fact I know I'm partly blame for some of it and I acknowledge my mistake and I did apologized, I'm trying to be neutral and show more supportive toward the hearing parent's choices/decision etc.

I remember one of the member here asked me "you want the best for your child, want your child to have as many options in their life right? if your child was blind, would you deny a laser surgery to restore sight?" I just sat there not knowing what to say, I realized that these parents wasn't trying to make their children "hearing" like them. Sometimes mind can make wrong assumptions and make up things that are just not true, and that exactly what happened. I've been wrong on some things I've said and I'm still learning and willing to listen.

Ok, let's say that the Deaf community becomes understanding and positive towards the parents' decisions but the parents tell the Deaf community that their child do not need to learn ASL and do not need to meet other deaf children.

What then?

 

[Daredevel7]

I beg to differ, how do you expect hearing parents to be willing to stick around and participate when you're not being fair on both sides, when I say this it is because I'm seeing the exactly same thing as Hermes here about what you said things like "not being defensive" , "not accusing anybody" , "not talking on behalf of others" , "taking self responsibility" etc. (Sorry Hermes, I took your words out of your post) and you're not applying this to everyone. Why is that?

I actually agree with this bold statement. I'm sorry Jillio, but I think its a bit evident that you're biased, leaning towards the deaf community. HOWEVER, that's actually okay, because I admit I am biased as well but from the opposite end. Everyone is biased one way or the other. It's just a matter of trying not to let your bias cloud your listening and insights. Even though Jillio may not be 100% neutral (who is really?), she does bring up a good question and this thread can lead to good insights and discussion (if not already!).

Honestly I am getting tired of people trying to call out Jillio as if there is some game going on "Who can prove Jillio wrong?". If you don't agree with her or get upset at her comments towards you, let it go and don't let it stop you from thinking and making a contribution towards the ACTUAL topic of the thread.

 

[shel90]

I actually agree with this bold statement. I'm sorry Jillio, but I think its a bit evident that you're biased, leaning towards the deaf community. HOWEVER, that's actually okay, because I admit I am biased as well but from the opposite end. Everyone is biased one way or the other. It's just a matter of trying not to let your bias cloud your listening and insights. Even though Jillio may not be 100% neutral (who is really?), she does bring up a good question and this thread can lead to good insights and discussion (if not already!).

Honestly I am getting tired of people trying to call out Jillio as if there is some game going on "Who can prove Jillio wrong?". If you don't agree with her or get upset at her comments towards you, let it go and don't let it stop you from thinking and making a contribution towards the ACTUAL topic of the thread.

I agree..it is silly.

 

[jillio]

I actually agree with this bold statement. I'm sorry Jillio, but I think its a bit evident that you're biased, leaning towards the deaf community. HOWEVER, that's actually okay, because I admit I am biased as well but from the opposite end. Everyone is biased one way or the other. It's just a matter of trying not to let your bias cloud your listening and insights. Even though Jillio may not be 100% neutral (who is really?), she does bring up a good question and this thread can lead to good insights and discussion (if not already!).

Honestly I am getting tired of people trying to call out Jillio as if there is some game going on "Who can prove Jillio wrong?". If you don't agree with her or get upset at her comments towards you, let it go and don't let it stop you from thinking and making a contribution towards the ACTUAL topic of the thread.

Thank you ! And of course I am biased. We all have our bias. The goal of the exercise is to place our bias aside and strive for objectivity. That is why I have continually asked for clarification, and pointed out incongruencies. Bias is obvious in inconsistency. Simply having a bias toward a particular viewpoint, however, does not mean that a middle ground can't be reached....from both sides.

 

[shel90]

Let's bring in on...the dirty, the bad, and the ugly! Maybe get some pure and raw feelings out here.

 

[Daredevel7]

Honestly I am getting tired of people trying to call out Jillio as if there is some game going on "Who can prove Jillio wrong?". If you don't agree with her or get upset at her comments towards you, let it go and don't let it stop you from thinking and making a contribution towards the ACTUAL topic of the thread.

Oh and I want to add that this is not for Angel, because s/he did make a contribution. Just clarifyin'!

 

[jillio]

Let's bring in on...the dirty, the bad, and the ugly! Maybe get some pure and raw feelings out here.

Let me give it a shot. When I first found out my son was deaf, as I said before, I was devastated. I cried buckets of tears, because all of a sudden, my whole world was turned upside down and I was thrust into something that I did not know about, and had no idea how to deal with. And then, a few days after his diagnosis, my son was sitting in my lap, and he turned and smiled up at me the same way he always had. At that moment, I realized that nothing had changed for him, it had only changed for me. I had to change the way I saw my own child, and that was my issue to deal with, not his.

Was I scared and insecure when I first tried to make contact with the deaf community? Yes, I was. Scared out of my mind. I did not know what to think of these people that talked with their hands. I did not know how to communicate with them. I did not know anything about deaf people. Did I sometimes get my feelings hurt by some of the things they would say to me? Did I get embarrassed when I would try my hardest to communicate with them and they would laugh because I used the wrong sign? You bet I did. Did I get my feelings hurt when they would tell me I thought like a hearing person? Of course I did. And I was offended many times. Did I keep going back. Yep. I kept going back, and I kept trying because they had something that I did not have. They had the experience of having been a deaf child, and I desperately needed to know about that so that I could better understand my child. Did it humiliate me to go into a group of strangers and ask them to teach me about the very child I gave birth to? Yes, it did. This was my child! I should know how to raise him! I should know what he needed! I am his mother, for God's sake! But as much as I loved him, as much as I felt like I was incapable, as much as it hurt to admit that I needed the help of people I didn't even know, I kept going back. I will be forever grateful that I did. They allowed me to see my son not just as my son, but as the deaf person he is. Yes, he is still my son. Yes, I am still his mother. But he is also connected, in a very real way to other deaf people. Does that threaten my relationship with him. There was a time that I was afraid it would. Time has shown me that rather than being a thread, it has been a glue that has bonded us even closer.

 

[shel90]

Let me give it a shot. When I first found out my son was deaf, as I said before, I was devastated. I cried buckets of tears, because all of a sudden, my whole world was turned upside down and I was thrust into something that I did not know about, and had no idea how to deal with. And then, a few days after his diagnosis, my son was sitting in my lap, and he turned and smiled up at me the same way he always had. At that moment, I realized that nothing had changed for him, it had only changed for me. I had to change the way I saw my own child, and that was my issue to deal with, not his.

Was I scared and insecure when I first tried to make contact with the deaf community? Yes, I was. Scared out of my mind. I did not know what to think of these people that talked with their hands. I did not know how to communicate with them. I did not know anything about deaf people. Did I sometimes get my feelings hurt by some of the things they would say to me? Did I get embarrassed when I would try my hardest to communicate with them and they would laugh because I used the wrong sign? You bet I did. Did I get my feelings hurt when they would tell me I thought like a hearing person? Of course I did. And I was offended many times. Did I keep going back. Yep. I kept going back, and I kept trying because they had something that I did not have. They had the experience of having been a deaf child, and I desperately needed to know about that so that I could better understand my child. Did it humiliate me to go into a group of strangers and ask them to teach me about the very child I gave birth to? Yes, it did. This was my child! I should know how to raise him! I should know what he needed! I am his mother, for God's sake! But as much as I loved him, as much as I felt like I was incapable, as much as it hurt to admit that I needed the help of people I didn't even know, I kept going back. I will be forever grateful that I did. They allowed me to see my son not just as my son, but as the deaf person he is. Yes, he is still my son. Yes, I am still his mother. But he is also connected, in a very real way to other deaf people. Does that threaten my relationship with him. There was a time that I was afraid it would. Time has shown me that rather than being a thread, it has been a glue that has bonded us even closer.

WOW!!!!! Talk about pure and honest feelings here! That's great! I wish my mom would really tell me how she really felt instead of clamming up everytime I bring the subject up.