What do you suppose is main reason of problem with English..

Honestly, I think that deaf students aren't giving enough effort to learn how to write proper English. I'm currently a senior at a deaf school and I understand how English grammar works. It makes my teachers do a double take when they see my writing (I've been accused of plagarism a few times because they don't think I wrote it), since I have a good grasp on the English language. It's too rare in the deaf community to see a deaf person who knows ASL and proper English.

It's just stupid. My school has doubled the units required for English, so we have two English classes (reading/writing) and a 15-minute reading time everyday. But since the students are so darn lazy, they don't even do their best. They just do what they have to pass and that's it. They don't even see why they should know how to write proper English. While, I gave up some of my ASL skills (I'm not the best at ASL grammar and end up signing PSE sometimes) to improve my writing skills. I'm also an avid reader, and with every book I read, I improve in my writing skills. I also watch a lot of TV too :P Gotta <3 CC for teaching me speed reading.

But it's stupid since most deaf people think they're not as "smart" as the hearing people, they basically give up on their studies. It's like if a class is actually challenging, they get scared and run from it. This year, my school had to drop AP classes because the kids refused to take them because they would actually challenge them and make them think. They'd prefer to take easy classes for a sure A instead of a more challenging class for a B. That mindset is causing the problems in English literacy among Deaf children. They don't think it's worth it to learn English. They've had English force-fed to them everyday (double classes, reading time), but they still don't care.

*headdesk*
 
Very interesting post, Ohemgee.
Perhaps you are right, perhaps how well we do in life depends solely on our hard work and ambition. Learning including.

If you could have learn English very well, then probably this is possible to whoever is willing as hard as you did.
may I congratulate you on your dedication :)
I am not sure how English is being taught at schools for the deaf but I think what would resolve the problem would be more hrs, more work on grammar etc. General more importance put on teaching English.

After all the language is the basic tool of communication everywhere, and since deaf people have special circumstances then special treatment is needed.
Special doesn't mean lesser, of course.

Fuzzy
 
Audiofuzzy said:
I am not sure how English is being taught at schools for the deaf but I think what would resolve the problem would be more hrs, more work on grammar etc. General more importance put on teaching English.

Fuzzy
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...and a little less importance on saying, "w-a-a-a-a-a t-e-r!"?
 
Good point dk......how much of our literacy problems are due to kids spending too much time on the "boo-bah-bee?" aspects of speech pronouncition?
Most signers didn't start out signing...so maybe? Plus, I mean I remember something from Ling that said that he thought that reading distracted from learning to talk, so he kinda discouraged reading instruction at least early on.
 
I do think some deaf people are simply unable to pronounce well, and they never will, so what's the point of "w-a-a-a-a-t-e-r"?
I can not pronounce well because I begun losing my hearing early enough to repeat what I heard nopt what was said (got it :) ) and I never will improve,
but I was always attending school for hearing people so my writing and reading skills are excellent (not trying to blow my own horn here).
And I believe that is more importnat than pronounciation,since as I've aready said for some it's beyond reach anyway.

Fuzzy

ps of course whoever can improve their speech all the more power to them.. but what's the point of speaking clearly but with wrong grammar? either way it is not working..
 
And I believe that is more importnat than pronounciation,since as I've aready said for some it's beyond reach anyway.
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Well, how many deaf kids have really good speech? Probaly very few....I agree....in speech there's too much focus on getting dhh kids to sound like hearies....god all the time I wasted learning how to say sounds and stuff like that....and I still can't modulate my voice very well.....and my voice is still high pitched and LOUD!
 
ohemgee said:
Honestly, I think that deaf students aren't giving enough effort to learn how to write proper English. I'm currently a senior at a deaf school and I understand how English grammar works. It makes my teachers do a double take when they see my writing (I've been accused of plagarism a few times because they don't think I wrote it), since I have a good grasp on the English language. It's too rare in the deaf community to see a deaf person who knows ASL and proper English.

It's just stupid. My school has doubled the units required for English, so we have two English classes (reading/writing) and a 15-minute reading time everyday. But since the students are so darn lazy, they don't even do their best. They just do what they have to pass and that's it. They don't even see why they should know how to write proper English. While, I gave up some of my ASL skills (I'm not the best at ASL grammar and end up signing PSE sometimes) to improve my writing skills. I'm also an avid reader, and with every book I read, I improve in my writing skills. I also watch a lot of TV too :P Gotta <3 CC for teaching me speed reading.

But it's stupid since most deaf people think they're not as "smart" as the hearing people, they basically give up on their studies. It's like if a class is actually challenging, they get scared and run from it. This year, my school had to drop AP classes because the kids refused to take them because they would actually challenge them and make them think. They'd prefer to take easy classes for a sure A instead of a more challenging class for a B. That mindset is causing the problems in English literacy among Deaf children. They don't think it's worth it to learn English. They've had English force-fed to them everyday (double classes, reading time), but they still don't care.

*headdesk*
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:thumb:
Way To Go! Effort definitely is important! I don't know if the method is as important, but matching the method to the child is, and giving english a strong focus, which it sounds like your school did. And of course if they don't take advantage of it, that's their responsibility. Some students have an easier time than others for a variety of reasons. I know several Deaf people who are excellent writers, were brought up using different methods, but were all avid readers, and they cont'd to read all the time to improve their english.
 
I have thoroughly enjoyed reading this message thread and am warmed by it.

ohemgee: Your attitude to hard work is commendable.

audiofuzzy: You have given me some ideas about how to improve my company's courses in business communication.

Princess: I agree with your statement that avid reading is a key to good grammar.

I'm not a deaf person, but I seek to learn from this forum. My company's core purpose is to "develop the learning potential of every human being, regardless of community, culture, age, sex, and personal circumstances." As company president, I take that purpose seriously. I hope you don't mind me joining in your conversations from time to time.

With sincere best wishes...
 
>>audiofuzzy: You have given me some ideas about how to improve my company's courses in business communication<<

REALLY !!?? I am excited even if I don't have the slightest idea what did I do :)
would you mind to share with us what ideas you have?

Fuzzy
 
dkf747 said:
...and a little less importance on saying, "w-a-a-a-a-a t-e-r!"?
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My point to this was; there is too much emphasis on speech and not enough on English.
 
dkf747 said:
My point to this was; there is too much emphasis on speech and not enough on English.
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I ditto that....what good is it to speak if you can't make an articulate statement and it was as if you weren't educated? Unfortunately, the educational system in general definitely has it shortcomings with teaching English period. My word...my uncle (now retired from the federal gov't) told me that he often had to correct his secretary's documents. It used to be that if you had a good secretary, she was a good as a walking dictionary and thesaurus and had the grammer down cold.

Nowadays, political correctness wants me to call these people administrative assistances....grumble...grumble...
 
lack of reading skills. I am reading more because I know that college will be harder than high school, since my high school teachers are required to explain the meanings due to my deafness. READING IS VERY IMPORTANT!
 
The problem are deaf institutes. Sad but true..

1) Deaf institutes create a deaf-only environment, where people are constantly using ONLY ASL to communicate. ASL is a great language to communicate in, since it enables signers to communicate as fast as a hearing person could talk, if not faster. HOWEVER, as with ANY language, you do not learn it well at all unless you use it on a daily basis. Otherwise, you "forget" the language. In institute environments, you sign in ASL almost 24/7. The only time you use Engilsh is in english class. Other classes (ie: history) tend NOT to correct grammar - only facts in the essay (ie: timelines, names). As a result, ASL becomes your primary language.

2) These institutes frequently employ teachers who are underqualified to teach, or are simply lazy, and do not enforce the english language when educating and correcting papers. They feel, for the most part, that it is "too late" to educate middle and highschoolers, or too much work to do so. This is a *HUGE* loss to us!

3) Institutes frequently don't uphold national standards when testing. Just look at Gallaudet - Their prerequesite for entrance into college is a 5th grade english level! This used to be 7th grade - until not enough people were passing the DRP tests - so they voted to lower it to 5th grade. It hides the problem, rather than try to fix it!

4) Deaf institutes "institutionalize" deaf people - makes them afraid of public environments. So when they graduate, they go to other "institutions", places like Gallaudet, which isnt that much better than a highschool environment. Deaf environment, Deaf language, Deaf world.. How does this prepare anyone for the hearing world? When they graduate, because of their being institutionalized all their lives, they cant find jobs - they dont know how, dont know how to compete, or simply dont qualify. So they flood back to deaf work environments like Gallaudet, deaf schools, deaf-owned businesses..

Sorry for #4 - it was off-topic sorta but the long term effects are tied into the reason why so many deaf people lack sufficent english skills. Granted, there's also some hearing people who lack written english skills as well, but these are for entirely different reasons (albiet distantly related) - usually its from dropping out of school at an early age, or an unchecked learning disability.

Granted, there may be a few good institutes across the USA - but its far too few and distant in between, and even then, there's still the risk of them becoming institutionalized, especially if they live in a dorm on schoolgrounds.

Guys, dont send your kids to deaf schools past 4rd or 5th grade - send them to public or private schools. The benefits are enormous - it teaches them how to deal in a hearing environment, how to socialize, and most importantly, it strengthens their english skills, which is CRITICAL for success.
 
fw001 said:
The problem are deaf institutes. Sad but true...
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Very interesting perspective. Good food for thought.
 
Granted, there's also some hearing people who lack written english skills as well, but these are for entirely different reasons (albiet distantly related) - usually its from dropping out of school at an early age, or an unchecked learning disability.

Granted, there may be a few good institutes across the USA - but its far too few and distant in between, and even then, there's still the risk of them becoming institutionalized, especially if they live in a dorm on schoolgrounds.

Guys, dont send your kids to deaf schools past 4rd or 5th grade - send them to public or private schools. The benefits are enormous - it teaches them how to deal in a hearing environment, how to socialize, and most importantly, it strengthens their english skills, which is CRITICAL for success.
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Interesting perspective, but I have to say that the problem ISN"T deaf insistuites...... Most dhh kids are MAINSTREAMED today. If it was "deaf insituties" that was the problem, then acheivement would have risen in the years after dhh kids got mainstreamed. MANY hearing people have problems with language...it's not just LD folks or whatever....God, just ask some of my professors...they will tell you that MANY hearing students cannot articlate their thoughts too well on paper!
Yeah, mainstreaming helps you deal with a hearing school....but so what? A lot of mainstreamed dhh kids are just SO BEYOND lonley in the mainstream.
They might do well in a school that has a lot of diversity, but in an average suburban school....they might not do too well....and i mean if the school, didn't have teachers who are experianced with dhh kids, the dhh kids get lumped in with the LD kids and the stupid slacker kids....and that's not good, I can tell you!
 
That is true, they do get lumped up. But that is more of an issue with parents not being involved enough in the decisive process, rather than the school. Although yeah, schools definitely shouldn't do that!

I grew up mainstream, and briefly experienced a deaf institute, and have visited several other institutes in several states (toured, etc). So I'm quite familar with both sides of the coin. The problem with deaf/hh in mainstream still lacking sufficent english skills has to do with their being placed in a permanent "home-room", which isnt that much different from an institute, in that sense -- they rarely traverse other classes, or mingle with the general student body except during recess or lunch, and a few might have one or two "external" classes that're actually mainstream.

I do know that alot of deaf people are mainstreamed. Not many deaf institutions can hold the vast number of deaf/hh people in each state, much less travel to all the cities in which they reside. However, I wasnt focusing on those - they tend to have better english skills, and rarely go to a school like Gallaudet. I don't consider students that stay in a "home-room" or other special class for deaf, etc within a mainstream school to actually be "mainstream", btw.. Although those types are alot more socially adept than those who areside entirely in an institution.

Mainstream schools are more heavily monitored and criticized than deaf schools, and must follow national standards in testing, placement, and have a heirarchy within the schools in which problems with the student learning process (% of students passing versus national averages), psychological states, among many other things are reported, monitored, and assessed. This heirarchy is very much lacking within deaf schools.

The main problem with people being lumped up with inapproperate groups or skill levels in mainstream schools may, in fact, be directly linked with the lack of sheer numbers of deaf/hh people in mainstream, as a good number (depending on state) tend to go to the institute, because the parent feels they would benefit more from being in an environment which is easy to communicate in, and would learn more. (A seperate issue I wont get into this round, smile). The lack of sheer numbers gives public schools more leeway in avoiding the problem, rather than addressing it, as not so much attention is on the issue.

So what I was doing was addressing what I believe to be the root of the problem, rather than trying to assess everything -- I'd wind up writing a novel if I did :)


deafdyke said:
Interesting perspective, but I have to say that the problem ISN"T deaf insistuites...... Most dhh kids are MAINSTREAMED today. If it was "deaf insituties" that was the problem, then acheivement would have risen in the years after dhh kids got mainstreamed. MANY hearing people have problems with language...it's not just LD folks or whatever....God, just ask some of my professors...they will tell you that MANY hearing students cannot articlate their thoughts too well on paper!
Yeah, mainstreaming helps you deal with a hearing school....but so what? A lot of mainstreamed dhh kids are just SO BEYOND lonley in the mainstream.
They might do well in a school that has a lot of diversity, but in an average suburban school....they might not do too well....and i mean if the school, didn't have teachers who are experianced with dhh kids, the dhh kids get lumped in with the LD kids and the stupid slacker kids....and that's not good, I can tell you!
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Interesting? Yes, but obviously wrong. As pointed out Mainstream programs do not produce much better resuls than Deaf Institutes. This is true whether we are talking about a truly maistreamed program as you're describing or the other kind, where kids aren't really mainstreamed. Blaming the Institutes is the easy answer, but in the end is not really the answer. If we closed them all, I bet it would hurt more than help.
 
But that is more of an issue with parents not being involved enough in the decisive process, rather than the school.
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Excuse me while I scream.....You OBVIOUSLY don't have deaf kids in the mainstream.....My parents tried to get the BEST education for me....but the school insisted it was doing enough with VERY minimal accomondations like auditory trainer, and preferential seating.
A mainstream school can offer minmal accomondatiosn and still be legally satisfiying legal requirments for an appropreate education.
I think it's more complicated.....like a lot of kids falling through the cracks edcuationally. A lot of kids may not have had appropreate teaching until they went off to school.....you just have NO idea....I'm not saying that the Deaf schools are heaven.....but neither are the hearing schools utopia!
 
Wow, thats the best joke I've read all day! public schools arent better than deaf institutions in education levels? :rofl: Have you even been mainstreamed before?

I cant really imagine one single reason why a deaf institution would be better than in a public school.. thats like saying we should put all wheelchair people into one school, and mute people into one school, and... hey while we're at it, why dont we just seperate by color too??

dkf747 said:
Interesting? Yes, but obviously wrong. As pointed out Mainstream programs do not produce much better resuls than Deaf Institutes. This is true whether we are talking about a truly maistreamed program as you're describing or the other kind, where kids aren't really mainstreamed. Blaming the Institutes is the easy answer, but in the end is not really the answer. If we closed them all, I bet it would hurt more than help.
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