Should the Deaf Be Considered an Ethnic Group?

[GrendelQ]

I would say I agree with this. It works at different levels and one have to look at the context, kind of ethnicity and so on. I haven't seen a good explaination with a clear pure "yes" or "no" to the existence of a deaf ethnic group.

All I know, is that it's possible to say it exist, and some people don't like the idea. This is the interesting part. Can we agree on when we can use the term "ethnic deaf"?

I agree. When I first came across the concept of deaf ethnicity I wavered, because there is the possibility that you could consider the existence of a Deaf Nation among those who share a common and distinctive language, culture, entertainment educational environment (deaf schools), etc., -- it's definitely a cultural group, and "nation" gets you pretty close to being a deaf ethnic group. But I probed a bit on this thread and couldn't really find someone (not even elsewhere in other works by the authors of the paper) who really nailed it and closed on the definition. I haven't gotten fully though PFH's explanation on my ipad yet, which may do the trick -- seems every time I start getting part of it down someone walks in to talk to me, but I'll work on it tonight.

And where it fell apart for me was when some people were insisting that any and all deaf would fall into this group, rather than just those who shared a Deaf upbringing, school, ASL, etc. Because there's just no way that you can force that kind of identity on someone, it has to be chosen. So I'm thinking I get the idea that people are trying to fit their heads around, but I'm suspecting the grouping is more of a subculture than an ethnic group.

 

[StSapphire]

No one answered my question, I see.

Can anyone explain to me what YOU think is the difference between cultural group and ethnic group?

I am a sad panda.

Don't be a sad panda. Be a karmic koala. Or, in this case, an explanative koala.

What are some examples of ethnic groups currently? What are some examples of not ethnic groups? Let's get ostensive up in this bitch!

 

[naisho]

Ok, here is an educational attempt to illustrate between race and ethnicity. Another said they could not grasp the concept to what is a ethnic group in comparison to a cultural or racial group and I tried to explain, but that didn't seem to get across the way I had hoped.

If you're intriguied and want to see this from an educational perspective to why this is, your answer lies below and it is pretty much the end all to this subject unless you want to challenge the way education has taught us. I assume most of us are at the high school education level with at least a basic understanding in geography before proceeding. If you have a background in the psych/sociology areas, you can grasp this pretty quick. If you don't, like most people, you are confused when asked "What is a race and what is an ethnicity?"

There are two parts to what consists as identifying a person. First is the culture, which you're all aware of. The second is the heritage, often through racial means.


Part I. Racial breakup

We know what race is. We see it everyday. You go to the market, best buy, K-mart, Banana republic. You see different people in there. African, Asian, White, Hispanic, I'm not going to name all, but you know the colors.

You get specific of which race:

African >>> Somalian. Congo (Bakongo are the people)
Asian >>> Japanese. Chinese. Korean. Vietnamese. Laotian. Indian. Indonesian.
Spanish >>> Mexican. Cuban. Puerto Rican.
European >>> German. French. Italian. Russian.
American >> Native American, Americans


What comes after this? When you get down to the next level, these are equivalent to ethnic groups. I won't go into detail of all of them, here are some examples:

Part II. ETHNICITY.

Chinese >>> Mongolian. Han Chinese (Mandarin). Yu Chinese (Cantonese). Chinese-AMERICAN
Italians >>> Sicilians. Lombardi.
Cuban >>> Cuban-AMERICAN
Tribes (of native americans) >> Navajo, Cherokee



Part III.
Where everyone not educated on this is confused. You've seen a Spanish guy who grew up in France. You've heard or seen a black guy raised in China. Or a Chinese kid who grew up in America. They learn the culture of these nations, but racially, you know they are not of original heritage.

Why? Subconsciously, you realize there is a heritage involved, not just the culture when you see the people around you. Most chinese won't see eye to eye with identifying the black person as Mandarin Chinese, even if he is 100% fluent in it.

These are where the "heritage" is missing. In the science/medical field, you'd never be classified that way because to them your DNA, genetic material, chromosomes, everything are all specifically tied with your race and ethnicity. Your culture doesn't matter, the race (or specifically, ethnical heritage) is all that does.

You see a question like:

1. Do you identify yourself as Jewish?
A. Yes
B. No

* If Yes, proceed to question 2

2. Which group of Jewish do you feel closely related to:
A. Ashkenazi Jewish
B. Polish Jewish
C. Lebanese Jewish
D. Other


If you are not Jewish, you technically can't answer question #2 for heritage reasons. Everything listed in Question #2 are ethnic groups of Jews.


Where does deaf fit in?
The culture is there, yes. But remember there is a genetic part to it. Everyone is not the same composition of DNA. We have Asian deafs. We have African deafs. We have Spanish deafs. Not everyone will have black haired babies, but just about everyone in the Mandarin Chinese will.
Not everyone will have brown haired babies, but many people in the Sicilians will.
Our DNA and genetic makeup are not of the same heritage, which is why from a medical view, you can't identify yourself as deaf for an ethnicity.


Socially, deaf are a group. But not ethnically. You can pretty much assume Deaf culture holds their own values to the same as gay culture does. Gays are not a ethnic group, but we know it is a group of people that share the same values and culture. However, there are different gays. Black gays, asian gays, you get the idea. I HOPE..

 

[posts from hell]

Ok, here is an educational attempt to illustrate between race and ethnicity.

...


Our DNA and genetic makeup are not of the same heritage, which is why from a medical view, you can't identify yourself as deaf for an ethnicity.

I understand. That is not how the term ethnicity came about though.

Science applied things to ethnicity later on.

 

[shel90]

YouTube - rebirth

That's why sometimes I just dont say much in these kinds of topics because of what you described happening. It is just not worth it sometimes. I know I am entitled to my opinion.

 

[naisho]

Here's a different learning approach for my pal who hates reading my wall of texts :P or if it helps those who are visual learners.
It isn't supposed to be an intellectual approach at explaining. Basic simplicity.

 

[Reba]

Glad it was sarcasm. I am not the only literal thinker here. :P is a good sign for sarcasm.

Had me worried, too!

 

[Reba]

Ok, here is an educational attempt to illustrate between race and ethnicity. Another said they could not grasp the concept to what is a ethnic group in comparison to a cultural or racial group and I tried to explain, but that didn't seem to get across the way I had hoped.

If you're intriguied and want to see this from an educational perspective to why this is, your answer lies below and it is pretty much the end all to this subject unless you want to challenge the way education has taught us. I assume most of us are at the high school education level with at least a basic understanding in geography before proceeding. If you have a background in the psych/sociology areas, you can grasp this pretty quick. If you don't, like most people, you are confused when asked "What is a race and what is an ethnicity?"

There are two parts to what consists as identifying a person. First is the culture, which you're all aware of. The second is the heritage, often through racial means.


Part I. Racial breakup

We know what race is. We see it everyday. You go to the market, best buy, K-mart, Banana republic. You see different people in there. African, Asian, White, Hispanic, I'm not going to name all, but you know the colors.

You get specific of which race:

African >>> Somalian. Congo (Bakongo are the people)
Asian >>> Japanese. Chinese. Korean. Vietnamese. Laotian. Indian. Indonesian.
Spanish >>> Mexican. Cuban. Puerto Rican.
European >>> German. French. Italian. Russian.
American >> Native American, Americans
....

Help me out, please.

You aren't saying that African, Asian, Spanish, European, and American are races, are you? I just want to be sure.

 

[CSign]

I understand it's difficult and sometimes impossible to read sarcasm in text. I thought though, that some of you who have been active in other threads I've posted on would understand by now that I appreciate and respect Deaf Culture. Although this comment is somewhat off topic, I just wanted to say that.

 

[netrox]

It depends on how you view yourself. Do you socialize with deaf people? Do you marry deaf? Do you use ASL as the primary language? Do you work for places where there's focus on deafness?

If so, you're in an ethnic group.

 

[StSapphire]

Help me out, please.

You aren't saying that African, Asian, Spanish, European, and American are races, are you? I just want to be sure.

I read it as him saying "Somalian, Mexican, Japanese, German..." are races that come from the geographic overarching African, Asian, Spanish, European, American areas.

 

[shel90]

It depends on how you view yourself. Do you socialize with deaf people? Do you marry deaf? Do you use ASL as the primary language? Do you work for places where there's focus on deafness?

If so, you're in an ethnic group.

That was my thinking when I answered "yes".

 

[TheOracle]

Tay-sach's is exclusive in Ashkenazi Jewish ethnic groups. They have a higher prevalence of the mutation than any other race or ethnic (Jewish) group.

Wait, sorry, I don't want to be picky, but Jews aren't the only one who get TS. Jews also get a lot of genetic testing and it is on its way to being eradicated from their gene pool now.

Sorry. :/

 

[GrendelQ]

It depends on how you view yourself. Do you socialize with deaf people? Do you marry deaf? Do you use ASL as the primary language? Do you work for places where there's focus on deafness?

If so, you're in an ethnic group.

How so? That outcome sounds like it should be "cultural" not "ethnic." All of those actions are things you actively choose, as opposed to an ethnicity, which is something you are born to, based on your heritage, biology and geography. My daughter doesn't live in China, doesn't use Chinese languages as her primary means of communication, doesn't live with a Chinese family, may not marry Chinese (tho' she might), doesn't work in a place focused on Chinese-ness. Yet she's ethnically Chinese.

 

[Bottesini]

How so? That outcome sounds like it should be "cultural" not "ethnic." All of those actions are things you actively choose, as opposed to an ethnicity, which is something you are born to, based on your heritage, biology and geography. My daughter doesn't live in China, doesn't use Chinese languages as her primary means of communication, doesn't live with a Chinese family, may not marry Chinese (tho' she might), doesn't work in a place focused on Chinese-ness. Yet she's ethnically Chinese.

She is biologically Chinese. Are you sure she is Ethnic Chinese?

 

[TheOracle]

Ok then Mexicans, Italians, Blacks, Chinese are not ethnic groups because we wouldnt want to group them based on their use of their spoken languages.

That's not how we define ethnicity. You wouldn't say a Spaniard and a Mexican are from the same ethnic group. You wouldn't say that people who spoke Latin are from the same ethnic group. It's more than that. I speak English. My neighbor speaks English. Does that make us part of the same ethnic group?

Here's a wiki definition which I like because it's the same one we used in our humanities courses:

An ethnic group (or ethnicity) is a group of people whose members identify with each other, through a common heritage, often consisting of a common language, a common culture (often including a shared religion) and an ideology that stresses common ancestry or endogamy.[1][2] ,[3] "...in general it is a highly biologically self-perpetuating group sharing an interest in a homeland connected with a specific geographical area, a common language and traditions, including food preferences, and a common religious faith".[4]

Not all deaf are Deaf. A deaf person in Biloxi should know he's part of a certain ethnicity called Deaf. He may not.

I don't know. More like group using Celtic languages which differ still being one ethnic group?

English is a Germanic language. It doesn't mean that Germans and English are part of the same ethnic group.

If you want to be an ethnic group, then you have to change the whole definition of ethnicity. (I'm not talking about some world wide web dictionary. I'm talking about the definition that sociologists, historians, etc. use.)

I don't really care what you define yourself as, though I'm wondering how good will it be for the Deaf if people see Deaf being an ethnic group and a disability...

Finally:

I can't give birth to someone of a different ethnicity that is not mine or my mate's.

 

[TheOracle]

She is biologically Chinese. Are you sure she is Ethnic Chinese?

Heck yeah. That girl has a whole history of people she can connect to (and sometimes feel alien with) someday.

Saying that one who immigrates to another country isn't ethnically something is dangerous...because that means African Americans aren't an ethnic group.

 

[shel90]

That's not how we define ethnicity. You wouldn't say a Spaniard and a Mexican are from the same ethnic group. You wouldn't say that people who spoke Latin are from the same ethnic group. It's more than that. I speak English. My neighbor speaks English. Does that make us part of the same ethnic group?

Here's a wiki definition which I like because it's the same one we used in our humanities courses:

Not all deaf are Deaf. A deaf person in Biloxi should know he's part of a certain ethnicity called Deaf. He may not.



English is a Germanic language. It doesn't mean that Germans and English are part of the same ethnic group.

If you want to be an ethnic group, then you have to change the whole definition of ethnicity. (I'm not talking about some world wide web dictionary. I'm talking about the definition that sociologists, historians, etc. use.)

I don't really care what you define yourself as, though I'm wondering how good will it be for the Deaf if people see Deaf being an ethnic group and a disability...

Finally:

I can't give birth to someone of a different ethnicity that is not mine or my mate's.

I was being sarcastic with that comment.

 

[Bottesini]

Heck yeah. That girl has a whole history of people she can connect to (and sometimes feel alien with) someday.

Saying that one who immigrates to another country isn't ethnically something is dangerous...because that means African Americans aren't an ethnic group.

I don't understand this. I know adopted Oriental kids who are very much into the heritage of their adoptive parents.

 

[TheOracle]

Ok, here is an educational attempt to illustrate between race and ethnicity. Another said they could not grasp the concept to what is a ethnic group in comparison to a cultural or racial group and I tried to explain, but that didn't seem to get across the way I had hoped.

If you're intriguied and want to see this from an educational perspective to why this is, your answer lies below and it is pretty much the end all to this subject unless you want to challenge the way education has taught us. I assume most of us are at the high school education level with at least a basic understanding in geography before proceeding. If you have a background in the psych/sociology areas, you can grasp this pretty quick. If you don't, like most people, you are confused when asked "What is a race and what is an ethnicity?"

There are two parts to what consists as identifying a person. First is the culture, which you're all aware of. The second is the heritage, often through racial means.


Part I. Racial breakup

We know what race is. We see it everyday. You go to the market, best buy, K-mart, Banana republic. You see different people in there. African, Asian, White, Hispanic, I'm not going to name all, but you know the colors.

You get specific of which race:

African >>> Somalian. Congo (Bakongo are the people)
Asian >>> Japanese. Chinese. Korean. Vietnamese. Laotian. Indian. Indonesian.
Spanish >>> Mexican. Cuban. Puerto Rican.
European >>> German. French. Italian. Russian.
American >> Native American, Americans


What comes after this? When you get down to the next level, these are equivalent to ethnic groups. I won't go into detail of all of them, here are some examples:

Part II. ETHNICITY.

Chinese >>> Mongolian. Han Chinese (Mandarin). Yu Chinese (Cantonese). Chinese-AMERICAN
Italians >>> Sicilians. Lombardi.
Cuban >>> Cuban-AMERICAN
Tribes (of native americans) >> Navajo, Cherokee



Part III.
Where everyone not educated on this is confused. You've seen a Spanish guy who grew up in France. You've heard or seen a black guy raised in China. Or a Chinese kid who grew up in America. They learn the culture of these nations, but racially, you know they are not of original heritage.

Why? Subconsciously, you realize there is a heritage involved, not just the culture when you see the people around you. Most chinese won't see eye to eye with identifying the black person as Mandarin Chinese, even if he is 100% fluent in it.

These are where the "heritage" is missing. In the science/medical field, you'd never be classified that way because to them your DNA, genetic material, chromosomes, everything are all specifically tied with your race and ethnicity. Your culture doesn't matter, the race (or specifically, ethnical heritage) is all that does.

You see a question like:

1. Do you identify yourself as Jewish?
A. Yes
B. No

* If Yes, proceed to question 2

2. Which group of Jewish do you feel closely related to:
A. Ashkenazi Jewish
B. Polish Jewish
C. Lebanese Jewish
D. Other


If you are not Jewish, you technically can't answer question #2 for heritage reasons. Everything listed in Question #2 are ethnic groups of Jews.


Where does deaf fit in?
The culture is there, yes. But remember there is a genetic part to it. Everyone is not the same composition of DNA. We have Asian deafs. We have African deafs. We have Spanish deafs. Not everyone will have black haired babies, but just about everyone in the Mandarin Chinese will.
Not everyone will have brown haired babies, but many people in the Sicilians will.
Our DNA and genetic makeup are not of the same heritage, which is why from a medical view, you can't identify yourself as deaf for an ethnicity.


Socially, deaf are a group. But not ethnically. You can pretty much assume Deaf culture holds their own values to the same as gay culture does. Gays are not a ethnic group, but we know it is a group of people that share the same values and culture. However, there are different gays. Black gays, asian gays, you get the idea. I HOPE..

Race? You just broke six billion people into a couple of racial categories? Uh, no. I disapprove. I disapprove of the idea of races anyway, since it's not biologically sound, but whatever.

Also, since people can convert into Judaism, you just killed your argument.