SEE is a language... It's English...

[shel90]

No Shel, clearly ASL is not a spoken language.

No, I am talking about changing spoken English to follow ASL syntax and call it spoken ASL. Would that be acceptable?

That is what SEE did to ASL. Taking a sign language and changing the syntax and grammar to fit hearing people's spoken language.

 

[CSign]

SEE has never been claimed to be ASL. That's not what I've said. I also never said using ASL was harmful to anyone. Good God. Just because I've done things differently doesn't mean I think any less of the alternatives. I sign with my younger son who is hearing. Holy ****. SEE wasn't created to take away from those who are Deaf. It was created to be one way of teaching English to those who cannot access it auditorily. Note I said, "one way" not the only way.
Shel, of course you will sign with your hearing son! I never said there was anything wrong with that. In a previous post I made a comment about if two Deaf parents have hearing children, it is perfectly appropriate for ASL to be that hearing Childs native language.
The way you guys all react to me, you would think I said my son was Auditory Verbal and that signing was the devils spawn.
I never said that, and I don't feel that way. I VALUE ASL!!!! I am LEARNING ASL! Just because I did things different than what you guys think is "best" doesn't mean it's wrong. I determined how I could best provide MY son with a complete language model.

 

[Bottesini]

SEE has never been claimed to be ASL. That's not what I've said. I also never said using ASL was harmful to anyone. Good God. Just because I've done things differently doesn't mean I think any less of the alternatives. I sign with my younger son who is hearing. Holy ****. SEE wasn't created to take away from those who are Deaf. It was created to be one way of teaching English to those who cannot access it auditorily. Note I said, "one way" not the only way.
Shel, of course you will sign with your hearing son! I never said there was anything wrong with that. In a previous post I made a comment about if two Deaf parents have hearing children, it is perfectly appropriate for ASL to be that hearing Childs native language.
The way you guys all react to me, you would think I said my son was Auditory Verbal and that signing was the devils spawn.
I never said that, and I don't feel that way. I VALUE ASL!!!! I am LEARNING ASL! Just because I did things different than what you guys think is "best" doesn't mean it's wrong. I determined how I could best provide MY son with a complete language model.

Great! We understand! You can do other things here besides argue that you are superior!

Have a little fun. Who is talking to your boy who is on school vacation now?

 

[CSign]

Please show me anything that I've written that has said, or even implied that I am superior? You won't be able to because it's not there. Why? Because I'm not one who views themselves better than others. I view myself as different, just as we all are different.

 

[shel90]

SEE has never been claimed to be ASL. That's not what I've said. I also never said using ASL was harmful to anyone. Good God. Just because I've done things differently doesn't mean I think any less of the alternatives. I sign with my younger son who is hearing. Holy ****. SEE wasn't created to take away from those who are Deaf. It was created to be one way of teaching English to those who cannot access it auditorily. Note I said, "one way" not the only way.
Shel, of course you will sign with your hearing son! I never said there was anything wrong with that. In a previous post I made a comment about if two Deaf parents have hearing children, it is perfectly appropriate for ASL to be that hearing Childs native language.
The way you guys all react to me, you would think I said my son was Auditory Verbal and that signing was the devils spawn.
I never said that, and I don't feel that way. I VALUE ASL!!!! I am LEARNING ASL! Just because I did things different than what you guys think is "best" doesn't mean it's wrong. I determined how I could best provide MY son with a complete language model.

I am talking in theory...would it be acceptable to you if one wants to change spoken English to follow ASL syntax and use it in the educational setting?

 

[jillio]

I haven't been "fed" anything. I made a choice to provide my son with access to language he is surrounded by every day. I made a choice based upon research, and based upon the way I could provide my son with a complete language model. Period. Don't like it? Great! Doesn't really matter to me what you think Jillio. I laugh at how bothered you clearly are at the fact that it was/is a successful venture. Cheerio

You completely missed my point. Once again, your focus is on "prove Jillio wrong" and not on "let's discuss options for the child.' But hey...glad you are satisfied with your choice. So, why are you still trying to argue about it? We get what you are saying. No need to continue repeating it. You are just going to get the same reactions from us as you got the first time you said it. **shrugs**

 

[jillio]

SEE has never been claimed to be ASL. That's not what I've said. I also never said using ASL was harmful to anyone. Good God. Just because I've done things differently doesn't mean I think any less of the alternatives. I sign with my younger son who is hearing. Holy ****. SEE wasn't created to take away from those who are Deaf. It was created to be one way of teaching English to those who cannot access it auditorily. Note I said, "one way" not the only way.
Shel, of course you will sign with your hearing son! I never said there was anything wrong with that. In a previous post I made a comment about if two Deaf parents have hearing children, it is perfectly appropriate for ASL to be that hearing Childs native language.
The way you guys all react to me, you would think I said my son was Auditory Verbal and that signing was the devils spawn.
I never said that, and I don't feel that way. I VALUE ASL!!!! I am LEARNING ASL! Just because I did things different than what you guys think is "best" doesn't mean it's wrong. I determined how I could best provide MY son with a complete language model.

**jillio banging head against brick wall** Still completely missing the issue.:roll:

 

[jillio]

No Shel, clearly ASL is not a spoken language.

And English is not a manual language. Get it now?

 

[jillio]

Please show me anything that I've written that has said, or even implied that I am superior? You won't be able to because it's not there. Why? Because I'm not one who views themselves better than others. I view myself as different, just as we all are different.

Ummmm....every post in this thread?

 

[CSign]

Keep banging your head against that brick wall Jillio. Maybe you'll knock some sense into yourself. Or most likely not.
I absolutely, at no point ever on this forum or anywhere in my life have claimed that I, or what I do is superior. I said it worked for me and my child.

 

[Reba]

Nice catch, Reba. And I tried to simplify (simply) it!

Actually, Army and Air Force personnel make it even more complicated. They refer to time as "1400 hours"; Navy personnel simply say, "1400."

I'm just grateful that you didn't use "bells" for time so I don't have to explain that term.

 

[Reba]

... Reading other threads, someone made a comment about having other hearing children in the house. The challenges that come along with having one DHH child, and the rest of the house is hearing. So what do you propose Jillio? Everyone turn their voice off all the time? What about when we are communicating with others who are hearing and the DHH child is in the room? Verbally respond to a question and then sign your answer in ASL, or respond verbally and in sign at the same time so that child still has access to the conversation going on?

It's a challenge, yes, but it can be done. Hearing children can learn how to sign. No one has to be "voice off" all the time but when the deaf child is present he or she should be included in the conversations. How you go about it would probably vary, depending on the circumstances. If it's a short utterance, such as, "dinner is ready" that could be done simultaneously in ASL and English. If it's more complicated, a consecutive response might be better. It also depends on the ages involved, degree of formality of the conversation ("Baby Snookums, come meet Daddy's boss"), urgency ("Don't stick your finger in the outlet!"), etc. Also, within the family context, members can establish cues and shortcuts for casual conversations that will make things easier.

In families where both parents are Deaf but some or all of the children are hearing, they work it out, so where both parents are hearing and some or all of their children are deaf, the family can work it out.

One would hope that parents could model fluency in the language they use but regardless, casual home chat and formal school language instruction aren't usually the same thing for any kids, hearing or deaf.

 

[GrendelQ]

I'm very glad my daughter's teachers at her bi-bi school use sim-com -- not for instruction or communication with the children, but in the hallways and informal conversations whenever they are using spoken English. This eliminates situations where Deaf teachers/staff/students who use ASL-only are excluded from public encounters/conversations.

 

[jillio]

It's a challenge, yes, but it can be done. Hearing children can learn how to sign. No one has to be "voice off" all the time but when the deaf child is present he or she should be included in the conversations. How you go about it would probably vary, depending on the circumstances. If it's a short utterance, such as, "dinner is ready" that could be done simultaneously in ASL and English. If it's more complicated, a consecutive response might be better. It also depends on the ages involved, degree of formality of the conversation ("Baby Snookums, come meet Daddy's boss"), urgency ("Don't stick your finger in the outlet!"), etc. Also, within the family context, members can establish cues and shortcuts for casual conversations that will make things easier.

In families where both parents are Deaf but some or all of the children are hearing, they work it out, so where both parents are hearing and some or all of their children are deaf, the family can work it out.



One would hope that parents could model fluency in the language they use but regardless, casual home chat and formal school language instruction aren't usually the same thing for any kids, hearing or deaf.

Very well said, Reba. The trick is to spend the time looking for the ways to work it out rather than spending the same amount of time coming up with excuses why it can't be worked out. I personally sign anytime my son is in my presence, whether I am speaking directly to him or not. Have done it since he was 18 months old. If someone else is speaking, I informally terp in his presence. However, I am also very much aware of how my ASL syntax suffers when I attempt to speak and sign at the same time as well as how my English suffers in that situation. However, it is not a concern, really, because this is a social situation, not a classroom. He will learn as much about language from using and being exposed to it, from having access to and receiving the communication, as he will from more formalized instruction on mechanics. In fact, he will learn more, because it is more of a natural environment for the aquisition of language function.

I do the same anytime I am in the presence of a deaf person, be it my son, or Joe down the street.

 

[jillio]

Keep banging your head against that brick wall Jillio. Maybe you'll knock some sense into yourself. Or most likely not.
I absolutely, at no point ever on this forum or anywhere in my life have claimed that I, or what I do is superior. I said it worked for me and my child.

You don't have to state it dear. You exude it.

 

[BecLak]

Wirelessly posted

Keep banging your head against that brick wall Jillio. Maybe you'll knock some sense into yourself. Or most likely not.
I absolutely, at no point ever on this forum or anywhere in my life have claimed that I, or what I do is superior. I said it worked for me and my child.

You don't have to state it dear. You exude it.

It is SO obvious - its the undertone.

 

[shel90]

I'm very glad my daughter's teachers at her bi-bi school use sim-com -- not for instruction or communication with the children, but in the hallways and informal conversations whenever they are using spoken English. This eliminates situations where Deaf teachers/staff/students who use ASL-only are excluded from public encounters/conversations.

Why are they using Sim-Com? The kids arent getting ASL nor English with Sim-Com. Doesnt everyone know ASL at your daughter's school anyway?

 

[jillio]

Why are they using Sim-Com? The kids arent getting ASL nor English with Sim-Com. Doesnt everyone know ASL at your daughter's school anyway?

And isn't Sim-Com totally contrary to the premise of BI-Bi?

 

[GrendelQ]

Why are they using Sim-Com? The kids arent getting ASL nor English with Sim-Com. Doesnt everyone know ASL at your daughter's school anyway?

They don't use it for instruction, they use it when conversing in spoken English with other adults. It is a bi-bi school, and not all hours / locations are voices-off. When spoken language is used, it's considered polite to attempt to sign simultaneously -- if comfortable doing so -- even if there's not a deaf person in the immediate conversation whenever in a public space.

 

[jillio]

They don't use it for instruction, they use it when conversing in spoken English with other adults. It is a bi-bi school, and not all hours / locations are voices-off. When spoken language is used, it's considered polite to attempt to sign simultaneously -- if comfortable doing so -- even if there's not a deaf person in the immediate conversation whenever in a public space.

Ahhh...very similar to what I described in my reply to Reba's post.