Putting your deaf children in which schools...and why?

They were already prepared for the physically and mentally disabled students and not at all prepared for the blind/low vision students. Most of the dhh and blind/low vision will be going to the FSDB in St. Augustine.
Click to expand...
Well that's good that FSDB will be growing a bit! FSDB is supposed to be quite good. Even for blind kids (most schools and programs for the blind tend to be for kids who are a bit more complicated then being just blind)
Their system is to place a child in the most mainstream type of place possible as a first placement, then keep moving them along with a "special school" as a placement of last resort.
Click to expand...
UGH. Just ugh. That is hard to believe considering that you guys in the UK have a K-12 ORAL school. The trouble is that mainstream is too one size fits all. Yes, there are kids (like postlingal and AG Bell overacheivers) who can suceed with minimal accomondations. That doesn't mean that everyone can. Sometimes I think the people in charge of special educational policy do not remember their school days or aren't adqautly informed of the downsides of mainstreaming.
 
Oh, and Kristina, I think that the reason why there were "just dhh or blind/low vision" kids at that school is a real reflection on how bad mainstream sped is in Florida.
One of the things that I KNOW that most of the parents of the oral sucesses don't understand about mainstreaming is that just b/c a kid is in the mainstream it doesn't mean that they are going to get a good education, or that it will be easy to get services.
The reason why schools for the Deaf and charter schools and dhh formal programs still exist is b/c a lot of parents were finding their kids being very underserved in the mainstream....that includes hoh kids and kids who were oral sucesses and could hear.
 
deafdyke said:
The trouble is that mainstream is too one size fits all. Yes, there are kids (like postlingal and AG Bell overacheivers) who can suceed with minimal accomondations. That doesn't mean that everyone can.
Click to expand...

I think you have also identified something of an issue there, that the authorities easily confuse "mainstream" and "minimal accommodations". They have no need to be synonymous, except that they want to save money so they will put a child in for hydrotherapy if the school has a pool but say it's not required at all if there isn't a pool on offer. It is perfectly possible for people to choose mainstreaming for whatever reason and still have equipment and interpreters. But mainstream is confused with "I want to pretend my child is not really disabled" and we are told the child mustn't have any equipment in case they "become dependent on it" - wth?! Are people who wear reading glasses dependent upon glasses, and is this a bad thing or do we thank our lucky stars that the child is able to see?

Teachers confuse it in their heads too, if the child has been "accepted" into mainstream (even though all children actually have a legal right to a mainstream place unless it is dangerous for them or other children in the school) they assume they are in need of very little assistance. If the child needs a lot of help they "should be in a special school" and back we go to the 101 excuses not to provide accommodations and adjustments.

Honestly, the teachers need to be experts, not just have a small amount of information. If you are a teacher getting a deaf child in your class next year you don't go on a course, you don't get to go and visit other schools teaching deaf children, you get handed an A4 sheet showing the child's needs (as assessed by the authority, not as given by the child and parents) which are in any case restricted to educational needs, not social, and usually told that the support staff will do everything and you don't need to know or do anything. An experienced Deaf sector teacher understands that a deaf child may have a broader spectrum of difficulties than just not being able to hear you, e.g. sometimes lesser experience of overheard language means the child has less language altogether.
 
I'm hoh and I wish I'd been mainstreamed less. I had good grades, but I think they would have been better if I was in a quieter environment where I could understand more. If I had a hoh or deaf child I'd be very reluctant for them to be mainstreamed, after my own experiences. It's not nice to be singled out in a class.

After diagnosis (6) I was given a headset/amplifier thing and made to sit near the teachers. Then at primary school I was in a 'special needs unit' of a regular school- about 15 kids max in 2 smaller rooms (which room depended on age) with FM units and aids. I enjoyed being around the other kids, but I did have my own issues with the staff. I remember being irritated that we had been set some work, and one of the other girls who was most likely severely/profoundly deaf completed the work and was given praise. I got told off for daydreaming/not trying hard enough but my work was still academically better (in my eyes)- I suppose I was a bit of a snob really and I'm horrified now. I used to get told off a lot for daydreaming in maths- what actually happened was I was stuck and didn't like to admit it, got confused and ended up being frustrated. You can't hide as well in smaller classes.

I did however dislike the way some of the staff treated us- I felt it was patronising; though they spoke loudly and clearly/slowly enough for us all to understand, they used to rub my shoulder to get my attention when all they had to do was say my name, and I didn't like the physical contact.

My SEN reports used to say how many hours a week I was eventually mainstreamed, as if this is the holy grail of achievement. It was loud, noisy and crowded: 30+ kids, a teacher, 1 or 2 tables of us and 1 or 2 learning support assistants sitting with us. I didn't like that the assistants always sat next to me, I wanted to sit with the other kids. In a way I felt patronised at times, eg. we had to write our names on a worksheet- the assistant explained this to me when I already knew, then took my pen without permission and wrote my name for me! I also remember an incident asking the assistant for help putting in my radio aid leads and she told me I should know how to do it by now as everyone else did! I had ITE aids not BTE, and I was 8! In a lot of ways I felt like an outsider even from the other SEN kids- HA wearers had had them for years and had BTEs, I'd only just got them.

Eventually- 9/10 or so, most lessons were mainstreamed. I liked sitting with a new friend I'd made but the personal touch of a small class is just lost, and there was stuff I didn't hear/understand even with aids/FM. After a while it got to me and I hated wearing them FM which probably made things worse. I could either turn my aids on to hear all the class noise, or FM to hear only the teacher. I'm not qualified to educate but IMHO I felt isolated, and at the same time single out. 'Melissa can you hear this?'- after a time of HAs breaking and audios saying they worked, I gave up and just said yes- I could HEAR the videos/tv, but not understand it. If I had a choice I would have said, please can I have videos with subtitles and watch them in a quiet room.

My 2pence....
 
But mainstream is confused with "I want to pretend my child is not really disabled" and we are told the child mustn't have any equipment in case they "become dependent on it" - wth?! Are people who wear reading glasses dependent upon glasses, and is this a bad thing or do we thank our lucky stars that the child is able to see?

Teachers confuse it in their heads too, if the child has been "accepted" into mainstream (even though all children actually have a legal right to a mainstream place unless it is dangerous for them or other children in the school) they assume they are in need of very little assistance. If the child needs a lot of help they "should be in a special school" and back we go to the 101 excuses not to provide accommodations and adjustments.
Click to expand...
SO DEAD ON! And if we DO get services in the mainstream, they are usually through the Resource Room. Which is set up generally for learning differences. I got LD (learning differences....ie like dyslexia) services...and it was OK. But again, they had NO FREAKING CLUE how to even educate a dhh kid. And it's not even just education. A lot of kids miss out on social emotional development....when's the last time you heard of a dhh or blind/low vision kid in the mainstream having a boyfriend or a girlfriend or being popular?
I have a friend who was mainstreamed in Scotland, and although she thinks she's better educated then if she had gone to a Deaf School, her academic skills are really sub par. She can't even write a coherent sentance! At ALL! And she is 30 but stunted emotionally at the age of 14. (SO screwed up don't even get me started on that!)
 
Melissa, I am afraid my primary use for my FM at school was to plug it into a Walkman or similar hidden in my bag and use it to drown out everything in the school! I got lucky academically because at secondary (high school) I went to a grammar school, one of those you have to pass an exam to get in. They in fact do NOT have a better quality of teaching, but it suited me down to the ground because most lessons had no teaching at all. The teachers had figured out that with a class full of able readers who had high verbal reasoning scores they could conduct the entire lesson by telling us "read pages 228-232 and then do the questions". So long as they wrote that instruction on the board I could follow the "lesson"! Maths was the easiest because we all worked through a box of little booklets. You got out your booklet, got on with the work, marked it, showed the teacher, put the booklet back and went to get another one. The teacher never spoke to the class cos there were no instructions to give and everyone was doing a different topic.

It's notable that lessons where I had to do things like work in groups or follow verbal instructions are those that I achieved little to nothing in. It was supposed to be a real disgrace that I was fired from some youth enterprise business program we were doing. I was thrilled because I had no clue what was going on.
 
I'm hoh and I wish I'd been mainstreamed less
Click to expand...
To the lurkers, and the people who are all "rah rah rah" about mainstream placements.....THIS should tell you something. A hoh kid saying that they wish they'd been mainstreamed LESS!!
Yes, some kids do quite well in the mainstream, but it does seem like most of the kids who do well in a regular classes regular school mainstream setting are the ones who would have done well even 35-40years ago.
I do think many hearing parents are operating under the assumption that Deaf Schools/regional programs specificly for dhh kids are worse then they are. That's really the number one thing that is hurting the survival of Deaf Schools/programs.
I do think many hearing parents would be AMAZED at how good the Deaf Schools/formal programs can be. Instead of a kid dog paddling in the mainstream, they have friends like them (instead of being the only one in the universe who wears hearing aids) and teachers who actually KNOW how to teach kids like us. I know parents of hoh kids who mainstreamed them, and then they transferred to a dhh program or school and they can't believe the difference!
Heck, I know the mom of a mild-moderate girl who is going to send her to preschool at Western PA School for the Deaf!!!!! One of my friends actually sent her daughter to the Deaf School for preschool. (and was so impressed with the program she would have had her there full time if she didn't really like the mainstream program)
 
I don't mind being mainstreamed for certain subjects, but that's what I did.
 
Haha RoseRodent, I didn't know you could do that with an FM! I wouldn't have dared- teachers pet.

Deafdyke, I'm 25 this week so not quite a kid but thankyou :) I did well academically with the exception of music and PE, which I suppose I 'failed' but we weren't graded as such, just didn't get the option of continuing them to a higher level. Both because I felt like a tiny tiny fish in a big pond and couldn't understand what was going on- but when I was wearing my aids and using the FM system what else could I do? I was too ashamed sometimes to say anything, didn't want to rock the boat. I got good grades in other subjects.

My SEN report from age 8 or so said I was often insensitive but easily hurt myself, and could benefit from social counselling-- did I get anything?... As an adult I've struggled severely with depression and self esteem, and my school years had a big impact on me.

I know what you mean about group work, RoseRodent. I either ended up being ignored, or doing all of the work for little of the credit.

Deafdyke- yes, friends who were like me were so important. Having terrible analogue ITEs made things difficult in the playground- kids would tease/bully me and half the time I wouldn't hear everything but I knew they were mocking me- the 'WHAT? WHAT? PARDON?' I still get sometimes. I loved being with the other SEN kids but as I got older we were split up and mainstreamed. My main issue with being mainstreamed was the amount of background noise/difficulty for me- school was an old building with high ceilings and 30+ kids in a class. A lot of the teachers time was spent telling us what to do or disciplining unruly kids- just not enough time to help people with the work. I felt singled out in a negative way- 'Do you understand, Melissa?' was shorthand for say yes and figure it out later or you risk looking stupid. My other criticism was that the FM allowed listening to the teacher, and aids to the background noise of the class- so not both- either way I was cut off from something.

I don't know if I would have been academically any better, but I think I would have been happier socially and in myself. Why is it an 'achievement' to go from hearing very well in a quiet room to not understanding conversation, in a crowded room, but managing to get along- or do very well as RoseRodent said, if the work is mostly written.
 
so not quite a kid but thankyou :)
Click to expand...
Well a former kid. ;)
And it irritates the crap out of me that parents of dhh kids are being told " Things have changed since those people who say mainstreaming doesn't work have been in school."
WRONG. That is why there are still Deaf Schools, and dhh programs. Heck there are Dhh schools that opened RECENTLY! Sequoia School for the Deaf and Hard of Hearing,
MDS-MNSA - Welcome, MDS-MNSA - Welcome,
Faire jour's daughter's school started out as a charter school if I recall correctly, and Jean Massaiu Academy in Dallas.
Heck the primary reason for dhh students not being able to suceed in the mainstream hasn't changed a bit! Most mainstream teachers (including sped) do not get a lot of training on how to teach kids like us. Therefore if a kid doesn't suceed with minimal accomondations, they get lumped in with the kids who are in Resource Room b/c it's a dumping ground.
It still happens....I'm quite active on listservs and things like that.
n
d could benefit from social counselling-- did I get anything?... As an adult I've struggled severely with depression and self esteem, and my school years had a big impact on me.



Deafdyke- yes, friends who were like me were so important. Having terrible analogue ITEs made things difficult in the playground- kids would tease/bully me and half the time I wouldn't hear everything but I knew they were mocking me- the 'WHAT? WHAT? PARDON?' I still get sometimes. I loved being with the other SEN kids but as I got older we were split up and mainstreamed.
Click to expand...
Yes. Even the kids who thrive academicly can and do have MAJOR major social emotional issues. It's actually such a big issue that it tends to be the BIG issue at the Clarke School Mainstream conference (and when I vended there I had to really keep myself from speaking out....same old shit they were spouting when I was a kid and when Shel was a kid!) I honestly think that a lot of the people who advocate mainstreaming seem to have their heads in the clouds about social adjustment. It's FAR too common for kids to be at the bottom of the social ladder. Sometimes, they aren't yes......and the thing is... I had social counseling, but it didn't work an iota, b/c a) I attended a really horrible snotty school (one of those schools where everyone raves about how nice and suburban it is....but it's horrible and snotty and bad stuff is covered up) and b) I wasn't getting counseling from someone who was experianced with working with dhh kids or even kids with classic disabilties.
 
Mmm, I agree deafdyke, I was doing (mostly) academically well- As and Bs- so my parents never saw any need for anything else. My mum said I seemed ok, but in retrospect I was depressed as a teenager but didn't know it.

Why is mainstreaming seen as such a great thing? IMO, EVERYONE would benefit from teaching in a smaller, quieter room with more one-to-one attention, not just dhh or special needs kids. For me it felt like being 'accepted' with the normal kids- most of whom either didn't talk to me or bullied me- I made a good friend in the mainstream but none of my classes were with her. Academically, I liked being able to discuss things with the teachers- eg I loved English and discussing books, but I couldn't hear most of what other people said in group discussions, so I was always more of a 'keep my head down and work quietly' kind of student.

To be very basic, mainstream was lots of noisy kids in a big room misbehaving, most of whom didn't talk to me because it was too hard for me to understand them with the background noise (and terrible aids) with a teacher who didn't have the time to give one-to-one attention.

The unit was a small room with mostly well-behaved kids in the same social circle, and teachers who could give one-to-one attention but weren't specialist subject teachers so couldn't give the same academic kind of attention. Ideally, I would have liked tuition in a small group from the subject teachers, but this would have been impractical. The accommodations I had were hearing aids, FM system and sitting near the teacher, and 25% extra time to take exams in a small, quiet room. After school (16) I stopped wearing my aids as they made everything loud and uncomfortable, and I was told I couldn't have digital aids.

Knowing what's available now, I would have loved CART or someone next to me who repeated what was said- but this was never offered, even at university. My notetakers at university were another story- no knowledge of Philosophy, got very similar terms confused, missed out dates. They didn't have the knowledge to note down what was important, concisely- my own notes were a few pages and theirs were 10+! I also had a voice recorder, listened to one lecture and ...still couldn't hear the things I missed in the lecture...of course not, can't lipread a tape! I asked for software to transcribe it but they said no.

So my own experiences aren't positive- I'd be very hesitant to place a dhh child in mainstream unless they really wanted it. I think non-mainstream education leads to a far better quality of education and social life- with other people who understand. IMO, what I got in mainstream was almost 'the real world'- struggling, very good academically with written work etc but listening was hit and miss, social skills not very good, felt isolated- but after years I don't realise how much I do it. If I stopped someone mid sentence EVERY TIME I don't understand, I'd be there all day.
 
Adding my 2 pence. I went to a school for deaf children from 2-11 years old. I was put in an oral class but still loved it since it was a fab school, was in a school with kids just like me. We were not forbidden to sign, we did in class sometimes depending on situations(HA's off etc)

High school was majorly different, went to a mainstream school which had a Hearing Impaired Unit, but because I was academically better than some of the others I was mainstreamed in all classes except french. In all my classes I did have a communication support worker, but even with the noise levels and the repeated subs teachers it was just not as easy to focus and learn. A lot of the kids used to stop the class and half the time we only completed half an hour's work or less in an hour! I also believe deaf and hoh children should not be made to go to mainstream and should go to a deaf school(if possible) due to the appropriate support level, noise levels, very small class sizes. Also, I did not really talk at all with the hearing students that attended the school, I just stuck with my deaf peers since it was easy to communicate and we had more in common. My TOD and CSW used to get some girls in my form to come round to me and talk to me to prise me away from my deaf friends(they use to get in trouble, boisterous boys but I did not get in trouble with them, i know what and what not to do) I saw immediately what the TOD was trying to do when the girls came over. I just ignored them and carried on with deaf peers since I was NOT going to let a teacher make me interact with people I did not want to.
 
I was waiting for your 2pence Lissa! High school sounds like mine, noisy and sometimes disrupted. I didn't have any CSWs ever, just unit staff sat with us for the first part of junior school- so nothing at high school. What I don't like about the FM is that I could either- with effort- hear the noise and talking of the person next to me- or hear the teacher- never both- that's why I eventually stopped wearing the FM.

At work now I'm in a smallish room about the size of the unit we had, and with the photocopier going chugachug and the phone ringing and 3 or 4 people talking it's very difficult- never mind 30 noisy students in a big room. What did the CSW do? My friends at high school were a few of the deaf kids I knew from junior school, and a hearing girl who wasn't in the same classes as me. (Not mentioning the bully I became friends with...). I know what you mean about boys and girls who misbehaved- our form was full of people who smoked, drank, swore, were very noisy etc- social education which we had in our form room was a nightmare but I just used to fill in worksheets.
 
melissa said:
I was waiting for your 2pence Lissa! High school sounds like mine, noisy and sometimes disrupted. I didn't have any CSWs ever, just unit staff sat with us for the first part of junior school- so nothing at high school. What I don't like about the FM is that I could either- with effort- hear the noise and talking of the person next to me- or hear the teacher- never both- that's why I eventually stopped wearing the FM.

At work now I'm in a smallish room about the size of the unit we had, and with the photocopier going chugachug and the phone ringing and 3 or 4 people talking it's very difficult- never mind 30 noisy students in a big room. What did the CSW do? My friends at high school were a few of the deaf kids I knew from junior school, and a hearing girl who wasn't in the same classes as me. (Not mentioning the bully I became friends with...). I know what you mean about boys and girls who misbehaved- our form was full of people who smoked, drank, swore, were very noisy etc- social education which we had in our form room was a nightmare but I just used to fill in worksheets.
Click to expand...


I thought I had replied already, FM's, hated hated hated, they didnt work for me!! We used to try and keep them off for as long as possible or accidentally "forget" to put them on :) The CSW basically signed what the teacher said, yes I was too lazy to lipread the teacher but I just preferred it, also she helped us with our work(giving us different ways that we could do it etc) PE was a nightmare, I didnt have anybody to sign what we needed to do, so in a great big hall, with a teacher with a loud booming voice, was very difficult to hear her and to lipread!! Swimming wasn't too bad as I could just follow what everyone was doing.
 
I'd be very hesitant to place a dhh child in mainstream unless they really wanted it. I think non-mainstream education leads to a far better quality of education and social life- with other people who understand. IMO, what I got in mainstream was almost 'the real world'- struggling, very good academically with written work etc but listening was hit and miss, social skills not very good, felt isolated- but after years I don't realise how much I do it. If I stopped someone mid sentence EVERY TIME I don't understand, I'd be there all day.
Click to expand...
AMEN!!!! Unless of course the kid was unilaterally dhh or postlingal or a VERY high acheiver or indications were that they only needed minimal accomondations to do really well. I think it should be the LAW that dhh, and blind/low vision kids as well as other kids with more classic disabilites need to be evaluated by someone affliated with the Deaf Ed or Blind Ed (or with kids with physical disabilites United Cerebal Palsy and Easter Seals) systems to ensure that they are placed in APPROPREATE educational placements.School is a BIG part of a child's life. Why should they be misrable in it?
 
Mmm exactly! It's debatable whether or not I'm postlingual as no-one noticed until I was at school aged 6, but then that's a lot noisier than at home one-to-one with my parents. Nothing happened in my toddler years to cause hearing loss, but I was born prematurely which can cause it. How do you class very high achiever? I got As and Bs, sometimes Cs, except for PE and music which I was terrible at. I was assessed by the special needs unit but the aim was to gradually mainstream as much as possible.

I've already talked about the accommodations I had- I don't think I'd have needed the FM system in a small room with clear speaker facing me- so I did miss things but it was never enough to affect my grades a lot. I think I remember someone saying elsewhere on the net that the aim is to mainstream and be 'in the real world' [implied] with as little accommodation as possible- but thats not how the real world works- if I need accommodations and I'm hoh then there are people out there who need far more than me but just risk being scared and isolated because no one in their social circle is like them- I think we should have had some sort of training in how to ask people for what we need, cos god knows half of them don't listen!
 
I think I would assess my actual child first before making any decisions....
 
WeeBeastie said:
This is one of my biggest reasons for sending Katie to WSD. She NEEDS to chat and gossip and talk about boys with her friends. There is NO WAY she can do that if she has to rely on a terp tagging along. I want her to get into mischief. I want her to have secrets. I want her to play pranks and scheme. I want her to complain about me/teachers/whoever to her friends. All of that is SO key to development.
Click to expand...

Bingo. She deserves the freedom of communicating without having to go through a third party to do so. Imagine if we actually required hearing children to go through an aide every time they wanted to say something to a peer.
 
jillio said:
Bingo. She deserves the freedom of communicating without having to go through a third party to do so. Imagine if we actually required hearing children to go through an aide every time they wanted to say something to a peer.
Click to expand...

And hearing people wouldnt stand for it, wouldnt they?
 
Back
Top