Taylor said:Beowulf, I'm glad that you find the Fifth Amendment right to Due Process amusing. Nobody here is arguing that abuse could not happen. Nobody here is arguing that it is not wrong. We can all agree on that. Any allegation of abuse should be investigated. Because somebody puts a picture on the internet doesn't make it so and that is the problem I have. There are photos of service members who you are openly saying are abusing prisoners. You are telling me that you are against these abuses but you are also saying that US soldiers are not entitled to due process under the law. If it is believed to be taking place, then let it be investigated. A photo can speak a thousand words, but it doesn't necessarily mean the story is being told.
I'm glad you can tell me to 'get over it' and have no proof that it took place. I can show you a photo of a prisoner (here in the US) that is bloody, does it mean the police beat him? I can show you a photo of an abused wife, does it mean she was raped? I can show you a photo of a car accident, does it mean it was a drunk driver?
If US soldiers are beating or abusing their prisoners, then they should have a trial and if guilty, be hung out to try. I have no problem with that. What I'm trying to explain is that a couple of photos of prisoners does not prove they are being beaten by those same soldiers.
1. We actually retrieved the bodies and heads.Magatsu said:I would say same thing about an american (civilian) who beheaded by iraqi soldiers sometimes ago in the video that which got some americans angry.
Please, no guessing games. Not everyone (including me) know who you are talking about.... I am sure that you know who I am talking about. . .
So, who do you use for a reliable information source?Edit: I gotta love these government-controlled medias, certain people believe in anything what they said nowaday.
Please explain to me why you are always so willing to doubt American actions and statements, but willing to accept whatever anti-American "news" you find? Do you used the same level of skepticism in analyzing the anti-American sources?I forget to mention one thing about beheaded americans. why does people believe in beheaded americans news? Simply because it is on cnn or foxnews.
What a bunch of nonsense!If Bush stand front of million people and shot off a random innocent 8 years old girl's head with a handgun, ate her organs then laughed. On government-controlled medias like CNN & Foxnews, they would spin and spin:
1) That girl was a daughter of terrorist
2) That girl was threatening Bush with her lollipop that she can use as a weapon
3) That girl wore a dress that made in France and it threatened our Democracy
4) Our War President was inspecting the girl's organs to make sure that there isn't any bomb device in her body
5) Our War President laughed from relief that he saved his life from that 8 years old mastermind of terrorists
What kind of proof would you accept? It sounds like there is no way to prove anything to you because you will deny it. Really, what kind of proof do you accept?I would say same thing about so-called WMDs. Show me the proof that Iraq actually have WMDs. UN and many countries repeatedly proved that there isn't any. So show me, I don't want the altered Satellite pictures. I don't want the statements by White House since they altered and spinned thousand times. Prove me something else beside these.
Who?I am speaking of certain party).
What kind of proof will you believe?So show me the proof.
I am not a Republican, but I read the quotation anyway. But it is about Presidents; I thought this thread was about the SEAL pictures. How does every topic end up bashing Bush? Sometimes you act like Bush controls the universe. You really give him more credit than he deserves.Good quote for republicans to read and ponder....
Same thing about reports of torture. You can see from some of the responses above that simply because it was not PROVEN by being actually caught and filmed in the act, never mind the overwhelming evidence, the media says that these are isolated cases, so let's just forget about it too and let this continue its course, let a few bad apples get punished, blah blah. The thing is, this is MASSIVE, it is routine over there. If you know anything at all about the military, you would know that NO ACTION can be taken without the approval of superiors.
God, sometimes I feel so ashamed amd disgusted to be an American.
Same thing about reports of WMD. You can see from some of the responses above that simply because it was not PROVEN by being actually caught and filmed in the act, never mind the overwhelming evidence, the media says that these are isolated cases, so let's just forget about it too and let this continue its course, let a few bad apples get punished, blah blah. The thing is, this is MASSIVE, it is routine over there. If you know anything at all about the military, you would know that NO ACTION can be taken without the approval of superiors.
God, sometimes I feel so ashamed amd disgusted to be an American.
Don't even get me started on the debate of WMD. People say the US is guilty of providing them to Saddam (which I believe we are, I don't doubt that). What I don't get is somebody will argue with me that Saddam never had them, but then tell me the US provided them to him.I would say same thing about so-called WMDs. Show me the proof that Iraq actually have WMDs. UN and many countries repeatedly proved that there isn't any. So show me, I don't want the altered Satellite pictures. I don't want the statements by White House since they altered and spinned thousand times. Prove me something else beside these. I must admit that I sometimes don't understand you people. It is ok for America to attack other country based on nonexistent evidences but it is not ok for people to question about military's actions.
You don't really get what I was trying to say. You spinned my words into -- what?Reba said:1. We actually retrieved the bodies and heads.
2. The terrorists (not soldiers) did not deny what they did; they bragged about it.
Please, no guessing games. Not everyone (including me) know who you are talking about.
So, who do you use for a reliable information source?
Has any trustworthy source denied and proved that Americans and allies were not beheaded? No.
Please explain to me why you are always so willing to doubt American actions and statements, but willing to accept whatever anti-American "news" you find? Do you used the same level of skepticism in analyzing the anti-American sources?
What a bunch of nonsense!
What kind of proof would you accept? It sounds like there is no way to prove anything to you because you will deny it. Really, what kind of proof do you accept?
Who?
What kind of proof will you believe?
I am not a Republican, but I read the quotation anyway. But it is about Presidents; I thought this thread was about the SEAL pictures. How does every topic end up bashing Bush? Sometimes you act like Bush controls the universe. You really give him more credit than he deserves.
That is a good point, why not you mediate on your own words to think about? Ever give it a thought about it? Read above about Bush's lies. As long as you dismiss these Bush's lies, I will dismiss these statements. That's only fair for both of us. Funny thing that you do agree with Taylor's point but failed to see my point. Can you find the irony in that? About Guardian's article on media, that is not nonsense. It is a fact. It proved time to time. Well if you don't like the facts, that's too bad.Please explain to me why you are always so willing to doubt American actions and statements, but willing to accept whatever anti-American "news" you find? Do you used the same level of skepticism in analyzing the anti-American sources?
Oh? Tell me why other countries who want to indict Bush for war crimes and it got him so mad that made other countries to backoff. So what are you trying to say? But that will change soon, thank to New Europe.Sometimes you act like Bush controls the universe. You really give him more credit than he deserves
I don't get it either. I was talking about Bush issues and others yet you people dismissed these as nonsense and blah blah. So yes, I don't get it either.Taylor said:Magatsu and Beo....The beheading of people angered me..not just the beheading of US citizens but the beheading of anybody. It really disgusts me that they took place. It does, however, anger me twice as much to hear about prisoner abuses. Here is why. I would expect terrorists to behave that way.
I do not expect US soldiers to behave that way and if they are guilty of any abuse, they should be put on trial for it. If a soldier is guilty of it, I will not defend that soldier. I will, however, defend the rest of military. Most are morally straight and do their jobs professionally.
I'm confused by this statement. Why should it not be proven? Because you believe it is happening makes it a worldwide fact? What overwhelming evidence? As I said a few pictures prove nothing.
Lets continue with your line of thinking and apply it to WMD. I changed one word in your quote:
That is the impression I get from those against the war and I changed your quote in jest to make a point.
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This is what I get out of debates like this:
Abuses:
I am told "We don't need proof that its happening. Lets post a few photos of what could be abuse and say its the entire military torturing Iraqi civilians. Lets not investigate it, but just assume that it is happening and all soldiers are automatically guilty."
WMD:
I am told "We need positive proof that Saddam had them. Not just a few photos of the equipment involved. Not some documents saying that they exist. Not people within his own goverment saying he had them. We need a barrel of WMD that says 'This barrel contains WMD'. That is the proof I want"
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Don't even get me started on the debate of WMD. People say the US is guilty of providing them to Saddam (which I believe we are, I don't doubt that). What I don't get is somebody will argue with me that Saddam never had them, but then tell me the US provided them to him.
I also don't believe anybody here is saying it is wrong to question the military about their actions. Question away. My point was a few photos that don't show anything do not prove that their is an abuse problem or that abuses are taking place. Why in the hell would somebody be criticized for asking for an investigation? Why would somebody be criticized for asking for proof? The proof doesn't exist, and yet the military is guilty of war crimes?
There is more proof that there were WMD in Iraq than there are of any abuses of Iraqi's by US soldiers. Yet, the US military should be hung out to dry while Saddam is placed upon a pedistal. I don't get it.
No, no and no.. will you first please explain to me why you are always so willing and so blindly to believe in government-controlled so-called "news" like foxnews, CNN but refuse to accept whatever anti-Bush news or articles by highly-trusted newspapers like New York Times, Guardian, Washington Post, etc?Reba said:Please explain to me why you are always so willing to doubt American actions and statements, but willing to accept whatever anti-American "news" you find? Do you used the same level of skepticism in analyzing the anti-American sources?
Beowulf, I am beginning to believe that these people no longer want to hear the truths. They plainly do not care about the truths. They simply want to hear anything that support their belief and morality. That's why I didn't bother to post the links to several articles that will be easily counter their comments.Beowulf said:It says a lot about one's mindset to say that he expects foreigners to be brutal in their treatment of prisoners, but not our own kind.
I fully expect our troops to become more murderous as time goes by. Why? Because they ARE brutal and they ARE becoming more so.
I have the feeling that you do not even bother reseaching our own soldiers' blogspots, in which they describe in detail the daily brutality and astrocities committed by own own troops.
Have you been in the military? If you have, then you KNOW that you cannot initiate any action without approval from higher up, so therefore the tortures have been known and probably encouraged by our top military brass.
How soon we forget.
At the beginning of the war, the Bush Junta made it clear that the Helsinki Accords regarding treatment of POW's were "irrelevant" and that we could do as we darn well please with them. That is damning all by itself.
http://www.discussanything.com/forums/archive/index.php/t.66416.html
To be confronted with pictures of recently bloodied and bleeding prisoners in our custody and claim that there is "no proof" that the troops had anything to do with it is an insult to anyone's intelligence.
And yes, I DO hold Bush himself accountable for the tortures because it was instigated from within his administration, from his tiny circle of advisors, so therefore he is accountable for them.
Beowulf, I am beginning to believe that these people no longer want to hear the truths. They plainly do not care about the truths. They simply want to hear anything that support their belief and morality. That's why I didn't bother to post the links to several articles that will be easily counter their comments
Reba said::topic: Photos of US Navy Seals' Iraqi Prisoner Torture
Not food, marriage, bed, Bush, other members, etc.
I think we are all getting off topic; just a gentle reminder.Cheri said:*coughing* you went off topic too![]()
Magatsu said:I would say same thing about an american (civilian) who beheaded by iraqi soldiers sometimes ago in the video that which got some americans angry. It is a internet video, yet most people believe it. That beheaded video may be fake as well (actually, it is very, very and very easy thing to do).
Now what are you trying to prove? If it is american who suffer in these photos, some people would curse left and right in their wake and be short-lived cowboys about it (Actually they already did with video so thus proved my point already). One million dollar question: who are hypocrites in these case, seriously? I am not talking about you... I am sure that you know who I am talking about (of course, it is not about Beowulf). It will be great if these people stop being short-lived cowboys for few seconds and think with their brains if they have any. Taylor, you have a excellent point but I wish that cowboys would listen to you because it applied them even more than for us.
Edit: I gotta love these government-controlled medias, certain people believe in anything what they said nowaday. After all, pavlov and hitler's biggest lie theory does work. Certain people, congrats for proving these theories, you people rock!
Second Edit: Taylor, I forget to mention one thing about beheaded americans. why does people believe in beheaded americans news? Simply because it is on cnn or foxnews. See where I am going with? Certain drooling americans will believe in anything what these medias said.
I couldn't find a article wrote by Guardian, it is very good.. The article explained how Bushies think and their psychology. If Bush stand front of million people and shot off a random innocent 8 years old girl's head with a handgun, ate her organs then laughed. On government-controlled medias like CNN & Foxnews, they would spin and spin:
1) That girl was a daughter of terrorist
2) That girl was threatening Bush with her lollipop that she can use as a weapon
3) That girl wore a dress that made in France and it threatened our Democracy
4) Our War President was inspecting the girl's organs to make sure that there isn't any bomb device in her body
5) Our War President laughed from relief that he saved his life from that 8 years old mastermind of terrorists
Which do you believe? Your eyes or media? Believe it or not, certain party would pick the latter one. Guardian made a very good point.
Now about this:
I would say same thing about so-called WMDs. Show me the proof that Iraq actually have WMDs. UN and many countries repeatedly proved that there isn't any. So show me, I don't want the altered Satellite pictures. I don't want the statements by White House since they altered and spinned thousand times. Prove me something else beside these. I must admit that I sometimes don't understand you people. It is ok for America to attack other country based on nonexistent evidences but it is not ok for people to question about military's actions. You people always confused me. Always. (Again, I am not talking about you, Taylor. I am speaking of certain party). So show me the proof.
Good quote for republicans to read and ponder, I gather that certain republicans will listen to other republicans for some mysterious reasons so here it is:
Ok, I am done with my post. I believe I proved my point.