Original Sin

[Tousi]

It's from the link: Catholic Church buries limbo after centuries - Yahoo! News

The Catholic Church.

Either way, it doesn't seem like anyone is going to debunk my points.

You have nothing to be debunked cuz the Catholic Church isn't Christian; at the risk of insulting those who don't realize it but it is a cultish organization because it repeatedly and often contradicts the Bible. If it's any consolation to sensitive folks here, I was raised Roman Catholic.

 

[xentar]

I find it hilarious how some of the Christian here are saying that Catholics are not real Christians. They're the original Church with a longer lineage than any so called new Churches.

 

[Yiffzer]

You have nothing to be debunked cuz the Catholic Church isn't Christian; at the risk of insulting those who don't realize it but it is a cultish organization because it repeatedly and often contradicts the Bible. If it's any consolation to sensitive folks here, I was raised Roman Catholic.

...

I'm talking about my points presented about original sin and other topics like baptism.

 

[Yiffzer]

I find it hilarious how some of the Christian here are saying that Catholics are not real Christians. They're the original Church with a longer lineage than any so called new Churches.

Me too.

I wish I could say, "Catholic is under Christianity. Don't like it? Too bad. Debate amongst yourselves."

 

[Tousi]

I find it hilarious how some of the Christian here are saying that Catholics are not real Christians. They're the original Church with a longer lineage than any so called new Churches.

Xentar, I'm glad that hilarity's your state of mind but be that as it may, I don't want to judge individual Catholics because I suspect there are, just as I was, a number of them who who have quietly become Christians but the Roman Catholic Church of Rome is not the original church nor is it Christian, scripturally. Btw, a church doesn't necessarily have to be one of brick and mortar.

I believe the first Church (not of brick and mortar) is the ministry of Jesus which was around for quite some time before the first known use of the phrase, "Catholic Church".

Just about all of the dogma or precepts of the Vatican contradict the Bible. Most preachers don't dare say this because the Catholic Church is so huge. I don't think I need to give examples (and there are many) of how/why the Holy See contradicts the Bible but I can if you are truly interested.

 

[xentar]

Xentar, I'm glad that hilarity's your state of mind but be that as it may, I don't want to judge individual Catholics because I suspect there are, just as I was, a number of them who who have quietly become Christians but the Roman Catholic Church of Rome is not the original church nor is it Christian, scripturally. Btw, a church doesn't necessarily have to be one of brick and mortar.

I had no idea finding something hilarious was a state of mind. Fascinating.

It's a no brainer that Catholic is what all other Christians are based off of. Might want to do a little reading here. Particularly the first paragraph.
History of the Roman Catholic Church - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I believe the first Church (not of brick and mortar) is the ministry of Jesus which was around for quite some time before the first known use of the phrase, "Catholic Church".

Wow. Tell you what. I'm going to pretend I never saw that and simply move on.

Just about all of the dogma or precepts of the Vatican contradict the Bible. Most preachers don't dare say this because the Catholic Church is so huge. I don't think I need to give examples (and there are many) of how/why the Holy See contradicts the Bible but I can if you are truly interested.

Catholics is pretty much influenced by a thousand or more years of deep corruption of the religion by people more interested in power than religion.

I understand your viewpoints on catholic as a whole, but claiming catholic isn't christian is laughable at best.

 

[Mistyrose]

Quick correction to a previous ADer post:

Baptists do NOT baptize infants.

Maybe not in some Baptist churches, but I have seen
it happened in one church!! I have seen with my own eyes, the
pastor have baptized a couple of babies.

 

[Yiffzer]

I'm getting depressed as the days go on. No one could challenge the position of my points. Are they admitting that Christianity isn't that perfect?

 

[Mistyrose]

Where have I blamed you for not reading carefully in this thread? Please don't attack me.



Where have I denied that? I actually pointed out that I did understand that.

I understand that we all sin, sometimes unknowingly, even by ignorance. However, if we did not know it was a sin, we would not be held accountable.

Being fairly blunt, it is not me but others that can not read or understand. For example, I asked this:

I have asked earlier to show me verses where Jesus had said anything about original sin.

And Cheri quoted Romans 5:12:

Wherefore as by one man sin entered into this world and by sin death: and so death passed upon all men, in whom all have sinned.

Cheri failed to understand my question.



Even that is debated amongst denominations. Apparently some Christians here do not believe baptism is "all that". I will bring up possibly three problems with the concept of baptism.

The first problem is that baptism, like original sin, was introduced by Paul. Paul linked baptism with original sin. Since I already presented problems with original sin (which no one has directly addressed yet), it is also difficult to trust baptism as a Biblical concept.

The second problem is that Jesus never spoke of baptism or defined baptism like Paul did. Paul defined baptism as:

"Are you ignorant of the fact that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? We were buried therefore with Him by the baptism into death, so that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glorious [power] of the Father, so we too might [habitually] live and behave in newness of life." (Romans: 6:3-4)

However, Jesus did go through the water but only for purification purposes:

It happened in those days that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee and was baptized in the Jordan by John. On coming up out of the water he saw the heavens being torn open and the Spirit, like a dove, descending upon him. And a voice came from the heavens, "You are my beloved Son; with you I am well pleased." (Mark 1:9-11)

How do we know baptism is purification? It is supported by the Old Testament. Numbers 19:1-22 explain indepthly of the purpose and how to purify oneself. For example, this portion explains that water is for the purpose of purifying from sin:

"A man who is clean shall gather up the ashes of the heifer and put them in a ceremonially clean place outside the camp. They shall be kept by the Israelite community for use in the water of cleansing; it is for purification from sin. The man who gathers up the ashes of the heifer must also wash his clothes, and he too will be unclean till evening. This will be a lasting ordinance both for the Israelites and for the aliens living among them." (Numbers 19:9-10)

The third problem is that even though babies were baptized, they would still not know what baptism is. Would they be accountable for not being baptized? What justification is there to let babies burn in hell for something they are unable to get or do? This is what makes the concept of original sin and baptism flawed.



How so? That's a pretty wild assumption. My argument is that you can not have faith the moment you were born; you can only learn it.

Ok, first of all, Im sorry for mentioning about "reading thing "..it was
uncalled for, i know. It was in other thread..so i humbly apologized.

About Jesus saying about original sin, well, i cant find that in my
Bible so i cant answer that, why dont you ask other ADers who are
more knowledgeable or you could ask some person w/ theology knowledge or
clergyman if you have one.
You have presented some hard pressed questions that maybe we dont
have answers for you, you know? I cant help you with these questions
you presented to me, im sorry. Im not that knowledeable and there are
so many questions myself that even i cant find answers to and believe
you and me, i have ASKED my pastor, Sunday School teachers, anybody
that have extensive knowledge of Bible and they often come up with
no clear answers or they kind of beat around the bush that kind made me
go roll my eyes, you know?

As for babies to be able to have faith..read Matt. 18:6 If anyone causes
one of these little ones who believe in Me to sin, it would be better for him
to have a millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths
of the sea.
John the Baptist was "filled with the Holy Spirit even birth" Luke 1:15 and
even before birth (1:41-44).

 

[Mistyrose]

I'm getting depressed as the days go on. No one could challenge the position of my points. Are they admitting that Christianity isn't that perfect?

Well, we cant challenge you on this one cuz we cant prove that
Christianity is perfect, it is not really perfect, all religions are not
perfect, really. Too many confusing facts and versions, ugh.
Just like life is full of mystery, right? same thing.
You just asked many perplexing questions that just really hard to
answer, Yiffzer..maybe that is why no one is answering you, I
cant, sorry. So dont get depressed, cuz i am too. I wish i can
get answers myself! Ohhh well..guess i will when i die and go
to Heaven then i will get my answers! lol!

 

[christlovedeaf]

The point about original sin, Jesus did not mention the word "original sin". Original sin we have explained and nothing is complicating to understand about "original sin". It is very clear, penalty of sin is not what we do, it's who we were born from. Sin enter the moment Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit. "Forbidden fruit" is like Snow White who ate poison apple. Forbidden fruit didn't kill Adam and Eve in physical, but spiritual. that lead separation from God. Before they ate forbidden fruit, they were naked and it's not shame, till the time they ate the forbidden fruit, they acknowledge there shame of nakedness. They no longer has the image of God. The meaning of image of God? Same mind, spirit,emotion. Not meant body image. It poison the blood and been handing down to us, till Immanuel-Jesus took our place on the cross.

• 
  Jesus said, "Go ye therefore, teach all nation and baptise in the name of the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit". How can you teach babies? Babies is in God's hand. We have the knowledge and freewill. We made a choice everyday. Salvation only thru Christ alone. Just like Noah warned people of the flood and they are welcoming in the ark, but they mocked. Similar about Jesus Christ. Today they doubt "flood" (meaning destructions as described by John, Daniel, Ezekiel, and other prophets.

 

[jillio]

Sinner is not what you commit. Sinner is who you are and who we born from? It is a hand down. When baby become like 1 year old or 2 year old, how that child lie? Where that come from? Why that child favorite word to parent by saying NO with anger? where that come from?

A child lies because all humans are born with an innate need to protect themselves from adverse effects, i.e. punishment. It is a survival instinct. That's why they have to be taught not to lie, moral/ethical behavior has to be taught through transmission of cultural values. They tell parents NO for 2 reasons, one they are imitating adults in their lives, and 2 they are very egocentric and see the world only from their viewpoint.

 

[christlovedeaf]

A child lies because all humans are born with an innate need to protect themselves from adverse effects, i.e. punishment. It is a survival instinct. That's why they have to be taught not to lie, moral/ethical behavior has to be taught through transmission of cultural values. They tell parents NO for 2 reasons, one they are imitating adults in their lives, and 2 they are very egocentric and see the world only from their viewpoint.

What about positive side? So easy to get into negative side than on the positive side.

 

[Blade Runner]

A child lies because all humans are born with an innate need to protect themselves from adverse effects, i.e. punishment. It is a survival instinct. That's why they have to be taught not to lie, moral/ethical behavior has to be taught through transmission of cultural values. They tell parents NO for 2 reasons, one they are imitating adults in their lives, and 2 they are very egocentric and see the world only from their viewpoint.

But can a baby lie? I doubt it. How would we know if a baby is lying? Children that is older than five years old, I can see your point.

 

[Reba]

Maybe not in some Baptist churches, but I have seen
it happened in one church!! I have seen with my own eyes, the
pastor have baptized a couple of babies.

That is totally against Baptist doctrine.

Baptists believe that a believer is baptized by total immersion after receiving Jesus Christ as personal Savior. A person publicly professes receiving the Savior, then is baptized publicly before the body of believers. A baby can't make a profession of faith, so it's impossible for a baby to have a believer's baptism.

Baptists and Anabaptists oppose infant baptism.

 

[Yiffzer]

That is totally against Baptist doctrine.

Baptists believe that a believer is baptized by total immersion after receiving Jesus Christ as personal Savior. A person publicly professes receiving the Savior, then is baptized publicly before the body of believers. A baby can't make a profession of faith, so it's impossible for a baby to have a believer's baptism.

Baptists and Anabaptists oppose infant baptism.

What about a child born to a Christian family? Would the child be a Christian or not? Would the child become Christian when it gets baptised? What are the firm requirements of baptism - believing in Jesus and accepting him as the true messenger of God? How would a child know the truth at a young age when a child only knows what he is taught? The concept of baptism, like original sin, seems to be plagued with problems.

 

[Mistyrose]

That is totally against Baptist doctrine.

Baptists believe that a believer is baptized by total immersion after receiving Jesus Christ as personal Savior. A person publicly professes receiving the Savior, then is baptized publicly before the body of believers. A baby can't make a profession of faith, so it's impossible for a baby to have a believer's baptism.

Baptists and Anabaptists oppose infant baptism.

I know that, thats why i was shocked for i knew a little bit
about Baptist doctrine but maybe there is a reason for it, like
maybe these two babies were sick or heavens forbid, dying?
(Bless these babies)...
It happened a long time ago so i really dont remember why.

 

[Reba]

What about a child born to a Christian family? Would the child be a Christian or not?

The child would not be a Christian until he or she personally accepted Jesus as Savior. No one is "born" a Christian. Christianity is not a race or nationality.

Would the child become Christian when it gets baptised?

No. A person (child or adult) becomes a Christian by repenting and accepting Jesus as Savior. After that happens, then the believer is baptised as a public act of obedience to Jesus, showing other believers that he or she has trusted Jesus.

Baptism does NOT "wash away" sins. The sin guilt penalty is removed by the sacrificed blood of Jesus before baptism happens. Baptism is after salvation.

What are the firm requirements of baptism - believing in Jesus and accepting him as the true messenger of God?

No, that's not it. A person must repent and accept Jesus as personal Savior, not messenger.

How would a child know the truth at a young age when a child only knows what he is taught?

A child is taught by lesson (explaining the Bible), and by example (showing the difference between good behavior and bad sin behavior). Parents, Sunday School teachers, grandparents, neighbor friends, older siblings, etc., can teach the child. The Holy Spirit convicts the heart to understand the teaching. The Holy Spirit can and does convict the hearts of any people (regardless of age) who are exposed to the Gospel. The individual makes the decision to accept or reject the Gospel.

 

[Reba]

I know that, thats why i was shocked for i knew a little bit
about Baptist doctrine but maybe there is a reason for it, like
maybe these two babies were sick or heavens forbid, dying?
(Bless these babies)...
It happened a long time ago so i really dont remember why.

I don't know anything about that church or situation that you mentioned. All I can say is baptizing babies is against Baptist doctrine. Of course, any church can put up a "Baptist" Church sign without really proving they are following Baptist doctrine. That's why people should carefully read the church's doctrinal statement and constitution before joining.

There is no biblical reason to ignore the baptism doctrine for special situations. Baptizing sick or dying babies won't change their spiritual status. Infants go to Heaven anyway.

I'm curious. Did the pastor actually baptize the babies by immersion?

 

[mecooncat]

That reminds me of my SIL. 2 yrs ago, She wanted to be baptized so she can go to heaven. I keep telling her that won't work. I'm surprised that Pastor dipped her fingers in the holy water and made a cross on SIL's forehead. I don't go that church because it don't make any sense. She was so happy as a clam. I'm not too happy with her because she didn't repent. I rather to be baptize in the water.