Original Sin

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Reba said:
God performed their wedding ceremony Himself. No one had to "invent" marriage.
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Can you prove he did the ceremony? If you remember he was irate at them for eating the fruit.
 
shel90 said:
For the sake of the argument, let's say babies do commit sins by lying or being deceptive, how do babies ask for forgiveness if they have no concept of it yet?

BTW..very interesting thread.
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Not to hijack the thread, but with my knowledge of Islam, it says that when an individual sin and do not know of God, they will be "exempted" from being judged because they never had the chance to be aware of God.

What does Christianity say of this?
 
DreamSlayer said:
But babies who have yet to know what a constitutes as a sin is not a sinner.

First, I'm going to disagree with this statement. The question this brings up is, 'Can one be a sinner without knowing it?'
If I drive to America (I'm canadian), and am speeding, but don't know I'm speeding, will I get a ticket?
Blood offering was offered for those who sinned 'unintentionally'-Ezekiel 45:20
Romans 5 -12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— 13 for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Secondly,
I don't believe baptism saves anyone, I believe only the belief in Jesus Christ and his death, and resurection for my sins, is the source of Salvation. So I don't believe that baptising a baby would ensure that a baby would go to heaven.

Third, Basic instinct, natural instinct, sin instinct any thing that seperates us from God is Sin. If a baby exhibits these things, then it is Sin, and they are seperated from God. If a baby is totally unaware of anything but himself, and is selfish and ignorant, manipulating, lying, whatever, then those could be examples of Sin nature?

If a baby dies does it go to heaven?
If a 4 year old dies and does not believe in Jesus does the 4 year old go to heaven?
If a 10 year old dies and does not believe in Jesus does the 10 year old go to Heaven?

But the baby didn't live long enough? who determines how long an individual lives?
Is it fair, that some people spend 60 years in church learning about Salvation, and still never accept it? while others die young and never hear about God?
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I definitely understand your perspective. I would say I agree. Allow me to reword my original statement.

Original: But babies who have yet to know what constitutes as a sin is not a sinner.
Revised: But babies who have yet to know what constitutes as a sin is not accountable for their actions.

I understand that we all sin, sometimes unknowingly, even by ignorance. However, if we did not know it was a sin, we would not be held accountable.

Granted it doesn't work out well in reality since if you speed and you did not know you were speeding, you'd still get a ticket. However, God knows all and no one human being can be compared to God's knowledge. He forgives those that did not know they sinned and he punishes those that are true sinners that do not repent after knowing it was a sin.

Now, I would like you to actually answer these questions you've put up if you can. Keep this from the Christian point of view. :)
 
Yiffzer said:
Not to hijack the thread, but with my knowledge of Islam, it says that when an individual sin and do not know of God, they will be "exempted" from being judged because they never had the chance to be aware of God.

What does Christianity say of this?
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From what I know based on my knowledge, people who never have found out about God wouldn't go to hell. They could make amends to make peace with God. Keep in mind, this is my own perspective based on what I know and that is what Christianity in my point of view says of this.
 
I would like to address two issues to mind with the concept of original sin. While I understand the fundamental idea behind original sin, there still presents a couple of problems.

A couple of you defined original sin in unique ways. However, from my own comparison of official definitions of original sin, I have noticed it depends entirely on the idea of atonement as well. Basically, the most complete definition of original sin would be:

The sin of Adam and Eve's defiance against God is passed on to their descendants which effectively curses the whole mankind with original sin, from which no salvation is possible unless one believes in the atoning death of the Son of God, Jesus.

The first problem is that Judaism never had this concept until Christianity came forth. Judaism simply believes in prayer, repentance and perhaps charity. Christianity now teaches that all of mankind are literally cursed with sin unless we believe in the Son of God, Jesus. It leaves a very high number of people in the world without any knowledge of the Son of God and they are all already cursed.

The second problem is that Jesus had never mentioned anything about the concept of original sin. The concept of original sin was introduced by St. Paul. St. Paul introduced original sin as if were a religious and philosophical concept. I have asked earlier to show me verses where Jesus had said anything about original sin.

The third problem is that the concept of original sin actually damages the souls of all mankind. All of mankind are literally burdened with sufferance to be accursed by the fatalistic sin. Since mankind is inevitably corrupted from the moment they are conceived, it challenges the concept of free will and responsibility. What are there left to do when you are cursed with sin that you can not escape?

And finally, the fourth problem is that original sin disregards every other element of human nature such as virtue. If there is such a thing as original sin, then why aren't there such a thing as original virtue? We possess all elements of human nature and each one brings us benefits of some sort. Original sin simply dismisses all other human nature leaving only sin. If not paradoxical, it is remains an illogical concept.
 
RITCount said:
Right. A lot of people have committed a sin without even knowing it. Take Yiffzer for example. He said he does not want low-functioning deaf people and atheists to post in this thread. He is judging these people without taking in consideration of what they might bring to the table. Judgment is an original sin. It goes back to biblical times.

People, would you choose to invite all varying opinions into this thread or be narrow-minded like Yiffzer and push away all the differing opinions? I ask you all to look deep inside yourselves and ask yourselves this: "Would I judge people or allow them to state their opinions no matter how weak their grammar is and be a good listener?"

Something to think about when you're doing a sin.
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I did not want Atheists to post here because I am not interested in some crazed debate on God again. I only want to understand and learn the Christian point of view and only the Christian point of view. I also appreciate people who make clear and concise posts as it makes it easier for all of us to understand and critique.

I put up an expectation that if a Christian were to post, they should be absolutely knowledgeable. By saying that, I am not judging them. Only Christians who read this will be judging themselves of whether they are fully capable of answering the questions and challenges around the topic of original sin.

And SyrOrange, you have demonstrated little understanding of original sin. You have stated "judgment" as an original sin which is wrong because I am discussing the whole concept of original sin itself and not what makes up a sin. I hope you understand this! Have a great day.
 
RITCount said:
From what I know based on my knowledge, people who never have found out about God wouldn't go to hell. They could make amends to make peace with God. Keep in mind, this is my own perspective based on what I know and that is what Christianity in my point of view says of this.
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Thank you! :D
 
SxyPorkie said:
Wow.. You have nerve to post Note against certain people.... they have a right to come in here and debate..... you only want us all to agree to every post of yours... thats where you are wrong.. you judge us all..... it is very wrong...
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Read my response to Jordan. I am not judging anyone at all. :)
 
RITCount said:
Shouldn't you be calling me by my present name?

Adam and Eve?

and this:

Creationism vs. Evolution vs. Contradictionism: The Secret Untold Story – Part III

What exactly did Satan ever do that was bad? - Unexplained Mysteries Discussion Forums
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The first link says:

The Apple

Well, fruit of some sort, but we'll call it an apple for now, as that is the traditional image.

It does not necessarily mean it is an apple. It is only a traditional image, much like Jesus' own long hair/beard hippie type of look.

The second link has no scripture basis but only goes by traditional conceptions of the "fruit".

The third link has no scripture basis but only goes by traditional conceptions of the "fruit".
 
Reba said:
You didn't read that in the Bible.
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You are exactly right, it was not in the Bible..
Adam and Eve were pure and sinless until
they disobeyed God one day. That means they
never had sex or commited any sins, period.
 
Yiffzer said:
I have asked earlier to show me verses where Jesus had said anything about original sin.
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Romans Chapter 5 5:12. Wherefore as by one man sin entered into this world and by sin death: and so death passed upon all men, in whom all have sinned.

the sin that Adam committed, this first sin, The sin of Adam has injured the human race, and we all get death, but Jesus saved us on the cross. ;)
 
RITCount said:
Do you have proof that it's not an apple? You could try asking your Sunday School teacher....
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Do you have proof that it IS an apple? Show me a Bible verse that says it was an apple.

The Bible DOES say:

Genesis 1
11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. 12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.


That means, apple trees bear apples, orange trees bear oranges, walnut trees bear walnuts, etc.

The tree of knowledge of good and evil was never called an apple tree, therefor it wouldn't bear apples.
 
RITCount said:
Can you prove he did the ceremony? If you remember he was irate at them for eating the fruit.
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They were married first. They ate the fruit after .

Genesis 2
21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; 22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. 23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. 24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. 25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.


You can see the sequence of events.

1. God created Woman.

2. God brought the Woman and Man together (the wedding "ceremony"; nothing fancy but profound).

3. After that, the Woman is called Adam's "wife" (not girlfriend, not fiancee, not domestic partner).

Genesis 3
6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.


See, when Eve gave the fruit to Adam he was already her husband. They were husband and wife before they ate the fruit.
 
RITCount said:
Source, please. Where is your source that supports this?
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Matthew 19
4 And he [Jesus] answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he [God] which made them [Adam and Eve] at the beginning made them male and female, 5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? 6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.


Jesus said it was God the Creator who established marriage.
 
RITCount said:
http://au.answers.yahoo.com/question/index.php?qid=20070412122558AAUOiDt

Notice that some people have agreed with me?

http://www.worldwideschool.org/library/books/relg/historygeography/TheFirstBookofAdamandEve/chap8.html

Notice how it stated that Satan was the one who came up with the concept of marriage?
The First Book of Adam and Eve - Chapter LXX
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That's not from the Bible.

So, you found something on the web that "agrees" with you, that makes it true? This isn't a poll of how many people agree with you; this is a debate.
 
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