It it really the deaf/Deaf community?

faire_jour said:
All i can say is that I have never ever had a Deaf person ask if my child is getting speech lessons or interacting with hearing kids. They have never even advocated for more speech at our bi-bi school.
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But there have been several posts on this forum that have commended you for providing both for your child. Have you forgotten those?
 
So several people so far said that they are confident with an ASL focused educational setting to ensure success of deaf people in the hearing world.

Why the promotion of BiBi then? Is this more for "meeting in the middle" with hearing parents?
 
Daredevel7 said:
So several people so far said that they are confident with an ASL focused educational setting to ensure success of deaf people in the hearing world.

Why the promotion of BiBi then? Is this more for "meeting in the middle" with hearing parents?
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I thought BIBI was so that English language skill would be developed and that is what is so useful in the hearing world.
 
Daredevel7 said:
So several people so far said that they are confident with an ASL focused educational setting to ensure success of deaf people in the hearing world.

Why the promotion of BiBi then? Is this more for "meeting in the middle" with hearing parents?
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The language of instruction is ASL in a Bi-Bi program. Any deaf child that receives an education, no matter what the philosophy followed, will receive English instruction. The biggest issue is, what language is used to teach not just English, but all of the curriculum.
 
Bottesini said:
I thought BIBI was so that English language skill would be developed and that is what is so useful in the hearing world.
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Exactly, that's why I'm confused by the people's confidence in a mostly ASL structured educational environment. Another question, is the "hearing world" exposure forced by life outside of school (i.e. hearing family) and the speech therapy lessons is enough?

Sorry this is kinda off topic but its my last question I swear! :)
 
Daredevel7 said:
Exactly, that's why I'm confused by the people's confidence in a mostly ASL structured educational environment. Another question, is the "hearing world" exposure forced by life outside of school (i.e. hearing family) and the speech therapy lessons is enough?

Sorry this is kinda off topic but its my last question I swear! :)
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I think you are equating "English language" with "spoken language".
 
jillio said:
I think you are equating "English language" with "spoken language".
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Why? Because I said speech therapy lessons? I assume that all curriculum contains English classes, so that goes without saying. ASL is not English structured right? The only 2 possible things that teach deaf children English language in an educational setting is English class and speech therapy lessons. All I'm asking is that is this enough for their communication confidence in the hearing world?
 
Daredevel7 said:
Why? Because I said speech therapy lessons? I assume that all curriculum contains English classes, so that goes without saying. ASL is not English structured right? The only 2 possible things that teach deaf children English language in an educational setting is English class and speech therapy lessons. All I'm asking is that is this enough for their communication confidence in the hearing world?
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Speech therapy does not necessarily teach English. It simply teaches speech, as in pronunciation, enunciation, and articulation.

One can communicate confidently in the hearing world without ever using a spoken word. Effective communication is not determined by the ability to speak, but by the fluent use of the English lanugage.
 
jillio said:
Speech therapy does not necessarily teach English. It simply teaches speech, as in pronunciation, enunciation, and articulation.

One can communicate confidently in the hearing world without ever using a spoken word. Effective communication is not determined by the ability to speak, but by the fluent use of the English lanugage.
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Okay that's fine, speech therapy doesn't necessarily teach English but it has a higher probability of having some form of English language than teaching History in ASL.

Where is the fluent use of the English language coming from? You said speech therapy does not necessary teach English, okay so scratch that. So you got English class and the child's forced exposure to the hearing world. Is this enough?
 
Daredevel7 said:
Okay that's fine, speech therapy doesn't necessarily teach English but it has a higher probability of having some form of English language than teaching History in ASL.

Where is the fluent use of the English language coming from? You said speech therapy does not necessary teach English, okay so scratch that. So you got English class and the child's forced exposure to the hearing world. Is this enough?
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But the point is that history can be effectively taught in ASL. English language structure is not necessary to teach historical concepts.

Fluent use of the English language comes from literacy.

And, yes, it is enough. In fact, it is the more beneficial to communication competency simply because it is bilingual, and therefore produces fluency in two separate languages.
 
Daredevel7 said:
Okay that's fine, speech therapy doesn't necessarily teach English but it has a higher probability of having some form of English language than teaching History in ASL.

Where is the fluent use of the English language coming from? You said speech therapy does not necessary teach English, okay so scratch that. So you got English class and the child's forced exposure to the hearing world. Is this enough?
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I mastered fluency in English mostly from reading all the time since I loved to read.
 
jillio said:
But the point is that history can be effectively taught in ASL. English language structure is not necessary to teach historical concepts.

Fluent use of the English language comes from literacy.

And, yes, it is enough. In fact, it is the more beneficial to communication competency simply because it is bilingual, and therefore produces fluency in two separate languages.
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shel90 said:
I mastered fluency in English mostly from reading all the time since I loved to read.
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Same here!

That's why it's pertinent to read with your deaf child.....
 
jillio said:
But the point is that history can be effectively taught in ASL. English language structure is not necessary to teach historical concepts.

Fluent use of the English language comes from literacy.

And, yes, it is enough. In fact, it is the more beneficial to communication competency simply because it is bilingual, and therefore produces fluency in two separate languages.
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That took quite a while to finally get an answer. Since I've joined AD, I have come to appreciate ASL's power in giving a wonderful education to deaf children at an early age. However, it's hard to be convinced that just because the general population is hearing, a deaf child surrounded in an ASL environment is forced to learn effective communication with the hearing population. Why? Because people here are so focused on convincing people why ASL is awesome, why speech therapy sucks, and belittling the need to be able to speak with the hearing world. Just see Jillio's responses to my questions, you'd think that she's against speech therapy, which in reality she is not at all. Because the medical community is promoting one extreme (oralism and/or CI) so the deaf community feels the need to respond with another extreme to compensate.

What does this have to do with hearing parents/deaf community? Well, if I were a parent, and I asked the question I asked earlier "Is speech therapy + English class + exposure to hearing world enough for effective communication?", do you think that what she said just now (after asking 3 times) will convince me that it is enough?
 
Daredevel7 said:
That took quite a while to finally get an answer. Since I've joined AD, I have come to appreciate ASL's power in giving a wonderful education to deaf children at an early age. However, it's hard to be convinced that just because the general population is hearing, a deaf child surrounded in an ASL environment is forced to learn effective communication with the hearing population. Why? Because people here are so focused on convincing people why ASL is awesome, why speech therapy sucks, and belittling the need to be able to speak with the hearing world. Just see Jillio's responses to my questions, you'd think that she's against speech therapy, which in reality she is not at all. Because the medical community is promoting one extreme (oralism and/or CI) so the deaf community feels the need to respond with another extreme to compensate.

What does this have to do with hearing parents/deaf community? Well, if I were a parent, and I asked the question I asked earlier "Is speech therapy + English class + exposure to hearing world enough for effective communication?", do you think that what she said just now (after asking 3 times) will convince me that it is enough?
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But you are missing the point...many deaf children are exposed to the hearing world on a consistent basis through their families since 90% of them are born to hearing families. Even those kids from Deaf families are exposed to the hearing world when their Deaf parents do errands or have hearing family members. I have yet met a family who has all Deaf extended family...all Deaf families I have met do have hearing family members whether immediate or extended.I am lost to what your point is...how is teaching English is related to exposure to the hearing world? English classes are done in classrooms and sometimes on field trips in the hearing world. Even hearing kids' English classes are taught in the classroom...:dunno:
 
shel90 said:
But you are missing the point...many deaf children are exposed to the hearing world on a consistent basis through their families since 90% of them are born to hearing families. Even those kids from Deaf families are exposed to the hearing world when their Deaf parents do errands or have hearing family members. I have yet met a family who has all Deaf extended family...all Deaf families I have met do have hearing family members whether immediate or extended.I am lost to what your point is...how is teaching English is related to exposure to the hearing world? English classes are done in classrooms and sometimes on field trips in the hearing world. Even hearing kids' English classes are taught in the classroom...:dunno:
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I'm talking about English language. I was just listing all the possibilities where the English language can be taught or exposed during a deaf child's life (in an ASL-based education setting): English class, communicating with hearing people, and as Byrdie pointed out, reading.

I wasn't asking if they are exposed to the hearing world. I was asking if this was enough for effective communication with the hearing world? As a parent, I'd be concerned if my child shies away from talking to anyone who does not know ASL (which is MOST of the people) because s/he is not comfortable about writing or speaking to them. How can I, as a fake parent, address this concern?
 
Daredevel7 said:
I'm talking about English language. I was just listing all the possibilities where the English language can be taught or exposed during a deaf child's life (in an ASL-based education setting): English class, communicating with hearing people, and as Byrdie pointed out, reading.

I wasn't asking if they are exposed to the hearing world. I was asking if this was enough for effective communication with the hearing world? As a parent, I'd be concerned if my child shies away from talking to anyone who does not know ASL (which is MOST of the people) because s/he is not comfortable about writing or speaking to them. How can I, as a fake parent, address this concern?
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By teaching the child that being deaf is ok, different approaches on how to communicate with hearing people, and most of all, instill confidence in the deaf child about their deafness. I wasnt given that despite being in a hearing world full time and u know what? I am the one who shies away from hearing people who do not know sign language and my brother who grew up in an ASL-based education setting at a Deaf school is much more outgoing than I am with hearing people who do not sign despite not having any speech skills. He has a part time as a tutor at a community college with hearing people who do not know ASL and I would definitely shy away from a job like that.

Maybe that's why I view the way I do cuz I have met over thousands of deaf people from all walks of life and I learned that ASL doesnt interfere with spoken language skills, English literacy, and interaction with the hearing world.
 
shel90 said:
By teaching the child that being deaf is ok, different approaches on how to communicate with hearing people, and most of all, instill confidence in the deaf child about their deafness. I wasnt given that despite being in a hearing world full time and u know what? I am the one who shies away from hearing people who do not know sign language and my brother who grew up in an ASL-based education setting at a Deaf school is much more outgoing than I am with hearing people who do not sign despite not having any speech skills. He has a part time as a tutor at a community college with hearing people who do not know ASL and I would definitely shy away from a job like that.

Maybe that's why I view the way I do cuz I have met over thousands of deaf people from all walks of life and I learned that ASL doesnt interfere with spoken language skills, English literacy, and interaction with the hearing world.
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So the parent must instill confidence in hearing world "By teaching the child that being deaf is ok, different approaches on how to communicate with hearing people, and most of all, instill confidence in the deaf child about their deafness" or is it placing their child in an ASL-based setting (like your brother?) or both?

It's safe to say that you do not believe that ASL interferes with the interaction with the hearing world AT ALL for the majority of deaf people?

Because I believe that's the majority of the parents' biggest fear.
 
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