Guns? For Teachers?

ravensteve1961 said:
Here the solution.. Every so often police should do a raid in school search their lockers for drugs or weapons. Every week a school gets raided in random order. The only people should know when the cops are comming is the principal. Its the principals duty call the teachers in his office during lunch hour so that way teachers cannot alert any student when cops are gonna raid the school. And then you might prevent it.
I am sorry to inform you that police raids on high schools don't work very well. :(

They tried that in our local community, and it totally backfired. The ACLU sued the police, and the community got in a big stink about it. The principal was forced to resign.

ACLU FILES SUIT OVER STRATFORD RAID
Published on 12/16/03
BY SEANNA ADCOX
Of The Post and Courier Staff
AH:20 students ages 14 to 18 represented

GOOSE CREEK—The American Civil Liberties Union filed a federal lawsuit Monday on behalf of 20 students ages 14 to 18, claiming "gun-wielding officers" and a "large and aggressive police dog" terrorized them during an unconstitutional drug raid Nov. 5 at Stratford High School.

The lawsuit filed in U.S. District Court in Charleston accuses school and police officials of violating search and seizure laws and using excessive force. It asks the court to declare the raids unconstitutional and block officials from conducting similar raids. It also seeks unspecified monetary damages.

At a noon news conference, the Rev. Jesse Jackson called the drug search a "dragnet driven by race." The lawsuit, however, does not include charges of racism.

"The ACLU shares that concern, and we also believe that no student, black or white, should ever have to go through the kind of nightmare that our clients experienced," said Denyse Williams, executive director of the state branch.


Here is the link to the rest of the story:
http://archives.postandcourier.com/archive/arch03/1203/arc12161498153.shtml
 
Theres nothing in the consitution says kids have rights. Kids have NO RIGHTS! Until they become 18 years old. Kids dont vote and they pay no taxes. So if the ACLU enforces this i think congress should start making kids PAY TAXES!
 
ravensteve1961 said:
Here the solution.. Every so often police should do a raid in school search their lockers for drugs or weapons. Every week a school gets raided in random order. The only people should know when the cops are comming is the principal. Its the principals duty call the teachers in his office during lunch hour so that way teachers cannot alert any student when cops are gonna raid the school. And then you might prevent it.

Steve, This would do no good. A majority of the school shootings (if not all of them), the students were not storing weapons in their lockers or at school. They generally murder their family members and then continue on to school. Searching schools would possibly bring in illegal guns and drugs, but they will do nothing to prevent school shootings.

Regardless of the publicity that these school shootings get, schools are still the safest places to be. Your son or daughter is more likely to get killed going to or from school, or hanging out with friends after school, and not within their classrooms.

As for banning all firearms, there is proof that this will not work. Look at Washington DC for instance. ALL firearms are banned in washington DC. If this is the case, how did Washington become known as the Murder Capital? The average 'bad guy' knows that the 'average citizen' is not armed and has no means to protect themselves. Pick and choose who you want to rob, murder, maim...makes no difference because the law abiding citizen in Washington is not armed.

Jump across the border to Northern Virginia where you can legally own (and in many cases carry concealed). Lets say its 3 am and you want to break into a house. Because its 3am, you know that most people will be home. You are looking at street with 10 houses on them. What if you knew that 7 out of those 10 homeowners owned firearms. Which house would you pick to break into? Thats right...you don't. You go into Washington DC where the homeowners do not have guns and you can have your pick of the same 10 houses.

Something else people seem to forget is the police response time. For arguments sake, lets say your police department averages a 1 minute response time (thats pretty fast). You wake up at 3 am to find somebody in your house with a knife. Do you say 'Excuse me while I call 911'?. Lets say you did have a chance to call 911. Lets allow the 10 seconds it takes for the call to get through...another 20 seconds for you to quickly explain that somebody is in your house (this is assuming you are using a landline and the police dispatcher can see your address and you don't have to use 10 more seconds telling them where you live). The dispatcher then takes 20 seconds on the radio to dispatch officers there. Add to that the previous 1 minute response time for them to get to your house.

You are looking at almost 2 minutes total between the time you realize somebody is in your house and the time the first police car rolls up outside (not to mention the time it takes for an officer to get inside of your house with a locked front door). Now....how much damage do you think could be done to you and your family in 2 minutes. Is your house so big that an intruder could not locate you within 2 minutes (even if your hiding in a closet). How are your fighting skills....have you ever fought for 2 minutes straight? How about with an armed assailant? What about somebody who is high on drugs and is feeling no pain? Could you realistically hold him off for 2 minutes? Many atheletic people probably couldn't fight for 2 minutes non stop...let alone fighting somebody with a knife or other weapon...what about the average person who isn't an athelete?

There are many variables that can affect the times I've mentioned above. What if you don't realize he is in your house, but you open your groggy eyes to find somebody in your bedroom? I'm also taking into account a 60 second drive for officers. What about suburban areas where the response time could be 5 to 10 minutes (even longer) even with lights/sirens?

Well...I'll get an alarm system you may say. I guess I see it more because I work for the police, but alarm systems are a joke. The only thing they can do is to alert you that somebody is breaking in. I've had officers catch a Breaking and Entering in progress to an alarmed building. At that point, the window has just been broken..the alarm hasn't even sound yet. I have seen 10 to 20 minutes between the glass break and the time the alarm company calls to tell the police of the alarm...10 to 20 minutes. I've also seen first hand that burglars know this. They will break into a business and spend 1 to 2 minutes inside gathering their loot knowing the police won't know about it for another 8 minutes....Burglars will do this even with an audible alarm going off.

I'd say a majority of the breaking and entering calls where we actually catch a bad guy is not because of alarm companies. It is either an officer driving by and seeing it in progress or hearing the audible alarm...or it is an observant neighbor who witnesses it and calls 911. When that happens, we generally already have somebody in custody by the time we get a call from the alarm company.

For those of you that are anti-gun, think about the above scenarios and how you would handle them. What would you do? If somebody is in your house, wouldn't you want a means to protect you and your family until the police arrive? Just because you own a gun doesn't mean you have to shoot anyone. Many armed people have no problem locking themselves and their family in their bedroom while an intruder is in the house. Should the intruder decide to make entry into their bedroom, the homeowner has a means to protect the family. Many armed people would never confront the intruder...let the intruder get his loot and hopefully never come into your bedroom.
 
Taylor said:
For those of you that are anti-gun, think about the above scenarios and how you would handle them. What would you do? If somebody is in your house, wouldn't you want a means to protect you and your family until the police arrive? Just because you own a gun doesn't mean you have to shoot anyone. Many armed people have no problem locking themselves and their family in their bedroom while an intruder is in the house. Should the intruder decide to make entry into their bedroom, the homeowner has a means to protect the family. Many armed people would never confront the intruder...let the intruder get his loot and hopefully never come into your bedroom.

Sometimes I don't trust self-defense because, sometimes people get charge for homicide. It's a scary thought I've seen an women murder her abusive husband shot him several times and gets a life in prison. So, that is why I don't believe in guns will protect you from anything. I hate to see people trying to defense themselves, ending up in prison for just trying to protect themselves from being near death.
 
Cheri said:
Sometimes I don't trust self-defense because, sometimes people get charge for homicide. It's a scary thought I've seen an women murder her abusive husband shot him several times and gets a life in prison. So, that is why I don't believe in guns will protect you from anything. I hate to see people trying to defense themselves, ending up in prison for just trying to protect themselves from being near death.
When guns are used for self-defense against an attacker or intruder in the home or on your property, the shooter is not charged with homicide in South Carolina.
 
Reba said:
When guns are used for self-defense against an attacker or intruder in the home or on your property, the shooter is not charged with homicide in South Carolina.


Are you postive sure that shooters would not be charge with homicide, if they shoot an intruder? I don't know about that one.
 
Cheri said:
Are you postive sure that shooters would not be charge with homicide, if they shoot an intruder? I don't know about that one.

There are circumstances around it...not sure how it is in Reba's state. If somebody breaks into my house, sees me with my gun and starts to run, I cannot shoot him in the back (or shoot him at all) while he is attempting to run. If he is running with a weapon pointed back towards me, then I'd be justified in shooting. I cannot shoot somebody for stealing my television, but I can shoot him if I'm backed into a corner (such as in my bedroom using the example from my previous post) and would be justified in shooting. If you are threatened in any way or in fear of bodily harm, you would be justifed in shooting. A guy running from you isn't going to harm you, while I guy walking towards you could harm you. Make sense?

With your domestic violence question, one of the reasons those people get prosecuted is because they shoot their abusive husbands while they are not being abusive. They feel they've had enough and shoot the guy in his sleep or when he's coming through the front door from work. If he were in process of attacking her and she shot him, she would be justified because her life was in immediate danger. Her life isn't in immediate danger if the guy is happily snoozing at 3am.
 
tekkmortal said:
Is that because we supplied these countries with guns and other arms? If we repel the 2nd amendment, the gun industry will go out of business.
Some Australians bought and owned U.S. firearms (and Brazilian, German, Italian, French, Israeli, British etc. ), and some British too, and people in Washington D.C. But in every place they have been banned violent crime has increased. I have owned guns for well over 40 years, and none of them has ever killed anyone. Actually, doctors kill more people by accident every year than guns do. It isn't the gun that is the problem. It is the idiot behind the gun.

I have stopped robberies twice with my own handgun and never fired a shot.
 
Taylor said:
There are circumstances around it...not sure how it is in Reba's state. If somebody breaks into my house, sees me with my gun and starts to run, I cannot shoot him in the back (or shoot him at all) while he is attempting to run. If he is running with a weapon pointed back towards me, then I'd be justified in shooting. I cannot shoot somebody for stealing my television, but I can shoot him if I'm backed into a corner (such as in my bedroom using the example from my previous post) and would be justified in shooting. If you are threatened in any way or in fear of bodily harm, you would be justifed in shooting. A guy running from you isn't going to harm you, while I guy walking towards you could harm you. Make sense?

Yes, But what if inside of the home is dark no lights on how would we know that the intruder turns it's back and the shooter shoot it's gun, How can we explain that it was self-defense? Which you said we cannot shoot the intruder in the back making it look like the intruder running away?

With your domestic violence question, one of the reasons those people get prosecuted is because they shoot their abusive husbands while they are not being abusive. They feel they've had enough and shoot the guy in his sleep or when he's coming through the front door from work. If he were in process of attacking her and she shot him, she would be justified because her life was in immediate danger. Her life isn't in immediate danger if the guy is happily snoozing at 3am.


Yes, But I've seen that women being in a postion of being abusing while the women shoots their husband, mostly likely get charge with murder or manslaughter, then says it was self-defense, still will get harsh sentences. How can we explain that justice wasn't on their side?
 
Cheri said:
Are you postive sure that shooters would not be charge with homicide, if they shoot an intruder? I don't know about that one.
Here are some examples from our local paper:
Published on 07/26/04
BY PHILLIP CASTON
Of The Post and Courier Staff
Jerry Reynolds wasn't concerned about laws or technicalities when he awoke on the night of July 14 to find a group of people breaking into his and his father's business.

When his father, Cecil Reynolds, heard the intruders over the intercom, which ran from inside the family's Ravenel tire store to their home just a few yards away, Jerry Reynolds grabbed his 16-gauge shotgun with one thing on his mind: protecting his family and property.

When he reached the halfway point between his home and business on McCombs Avenue near S.C. Highway 162, Jerry Reynolds saw three people climbing out of the window of the shop. Preparing to fire, Reynolds pumped his shotgun once, but it was empty.

Reynolds retreated back to his house and grabbed another shotgun, this time a loaded 12-gauge. However, by the time he returned to the store, the intruders were fleeing in a white Toyota Camry. Reynolds fired one round of buckshot at the car, stating that he took care to aim for the back of the vehicle rather than shooting through the front passenger windows because he didn't want to kill the intruders.

"I'm disappointed I didn't get to do what I wanted to do, which was shoot them in the legs and catch up to them," Reynolds said. "I guess things happen for a reason."

Reynolds said he never got a good look at the intruders and doesn't remember if he shouted anything at them.

David Foster, 18; Matthew Hough, 17; Skyler Welker, 18; Anthony Cavalea, 18; and Binh Ton, 17, all of Mount Pleasant, were arrested shortly afterward by the Charleston County Sheriff's Office and charged with second-degree burglary.

A question remained following the break-in: How justified was Reynolds, according to law, in firing a shot at the fleeing suspects?

According to 9th Circuit Solicitor Ralph Hoisington, citizens have the right to protect themselves with deadly force if someone breaks into their residence while they are home and the intruder poses a threat to their safety. In Reynolds' case, it didn't appear that he was in immediate physical danger, Hoisington said.

"That is a dangerous decision for a business owner to make," Hoisington said. "Once someone is driving away, it takes out the realm of self-defense."

The sheriff's office and the solicitor's office did not press charges against Reynolds, mainly because both agreed it was not a prosecutable case, according to Capt. Dana Valentine, sheriff's spokesman. Reynolds' shot did not strike the vehicle, according to deputies.

Over the past year, there have been other Lowcountry cases of citizens using deadly force to protect themselves, their homes or their property. Some of them include:

-- William Gates, 68, who fired from his Tripe Street home's front porch on Aug. 1 at three individuals involved in a shootout in his yard, wounding two of the men. No charges were filed because Gates thought one shot was fired at him, placing him in immediate danger, according to Hoisington.

-- Jerron Richburg, 27, who waited in his Cross home with a shotgun on May 12 following several break-ins at his residence. Richburg, after pretending to be gone from the home, shot a 16-year-old juvenile in the leg after he broke into the house. The juvenile had to have his leg amputated due to the wounds. No charges were filed against Richburg and the case is being reviewed by the 9th Circuit Solicitor's Office.

The decision to charge someone when they use deadly force to defend themselves, their property or their home is mainly left up to the solicitor's office, Hoisington said. Officials look at two main factors: whether the person faced a real, physical danger that the victim did not instigate and whether the person had no chance to retreat to avoid the danger.

Hoisington and Savage said the standard for home defense in South Carolina changed under the tenure of former Attorney General Charlie Condon. In 2001, Condon instituted a home-invasion policy that protected citizens from prosecution for defending against intruders.

"It lowered the bar for how far a homeowner can go," Hoisington said.

Victims, however, may not shoot someone just to defend their property, Hoisington said. .. it against South Carolina law to set up a spring-loaded device or a booby-trap in the home...

Law enforcement officials mainly use discretion when determining whether a victim is justified in using deadly force, Valentine said.

Magistrate dismisses shooting charge
Published on 04/29/00
BY GLENN SMITH
The Post and Courier
A judge dismissed an assault charge Friday against a 66-year-old North Charleston man accused of shooting his brother in the arm earlier in the day.

North Charleston police had charged Lee Ivory Smalls with assault and battery with intent to kill after the 4 a.m. shooting outside his Sanders Street home. Police say he shot his 61-year-old brother once in the forearm during a struggle.

Magistrate Jack Guedalia dismissed the charge during a bail hearing. Guedalia said he saw no evidence of criminal intent behind the shooting. From all indications, Smalls was protecting himself in his home, he said.

...Schwacke said it appeared to be a case of "valid self-defense" in which a property owner was "acting in response to physical action being taken against him."

Prosecutors say homeowner who shot burglar acted lawfully
Published on 08/22/04
BY NITA BIRMINGHAM
Of The Post and Courier Staff
A Cross homeowner, weary of repeated burglaries and worried for the safety of his wife and child, won't be prosecuted for shooting a teenager accused of breaking into the house earlier this year.

It appears Jerron Richburg was acting in self-defense when he shot the 16-year-old male in the leg May 12 on Farm Hill Circle, Berkeley County Deputy Solicitor Blair Jennings said.

The teenager, who hasn't been identified because he's a juvenile, is accused of breaking into Richburg's home using a file and screwdriver. The juvenile also lived in the area. Richburg and the teen met in the hallway of the mobile home, where Richburg shot the teen with a shotgun.

"Based on the information we've got now, (Richburg) acted lawfully," Jennings said. "The house is a person's domain. Clearly, you have the right to defend yourself in your house."

The S.C. Attorney General's Office said as much in 2001 when the state's top prosecutor declared open season on home invaders.

Former Attorney General Charlie Condon directed authorities not to arrest, charge or prosecute residents who defended their homes, even if they used deadly force.
 
Reba, That is a good self-defense laws in South Carolina, But I dunno about in Ohio or any other states. :dunno:


But, When I watched the news before about self-defense how some people still be charge with shooting an intruder, or shooting their husbands or wives for domestic violence. It's hard to have faith in the government system and the court. Sometimes it bite you in the butt. :Ohno:
 
Cheri said:
Reba, That is a good self-defense laws in South Carolina, But I dunno about in Ohio or any other states. :dunno:
Each state has different laws, so it depends.


But, When I watched the news before about self-defense how some people still be charge with shooting an intruder, or shooting their husbands or wives for domestic violence. It's hard to have faith in the government system and the court. Sometimes it bite you in the butt. :Ohno:
Of course each case and situation is different. Sometimes a person just has to take the chance. If someone feels threatened and can't escape, that person has to make a choice.

IMHO, if I have a gun, I have a choice. No gun, no choice. That is just my opinion.
 
Reba said:
IMHO, if I have a gun, I have a choice. No gun, no choice. That is just my opinion.

Excellent quote, and I feel the same way.

BTW, those are some great examples of how the law can be applied. On the first one where he fired a shot at their car and missed, I do believe his outcome would have been much different had he shot through the window and hit one of the suspects.

Its difficult to justify shooting somebody while they are driving away.

As my Lieutenant would say, Its better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6
 
I am very against guns whom anyone carrying to my house to protect my son for the sake. But as for schools, its very hard..

Raven, police raids dont work very good cuz u noticed that there were some students that shot other students/teachers and killed them? See thats why it does not work very good. Since students have personal problems. You know the boy that shot 9 people at school recently and he was having one of his relatives guns to use to kill for no reasons. Understand that.

It makes me more worries alot since its about time for my son (adoption) to go to school this fall. Because I have been hearing alot of news that students shot others in the past. I wish there s something new thing that can prevent the students by carrying serious weapons to schools, stores, etcs. but we cant prevent. In my opinion that I can't protect my son forever for any reasons. When I was in high school there were two students whom tried to fight with the deadly weapons but they got suspended. It is more difficulty for any ppls to prevent the deadly weapon, am I right??

PurrMeow
 
Taylor said:
Its better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6

What do u mean by this ?
if you could please re-phrase this ? thanks.
 
Y said:
sorry, i do NOT understand this quote
if you could please re-phrase this ? thanks.
"12" refers to 12 members of a jury.
"6" refers to 6 pallbearers carrying a casket.

Suppose someone breaks into my house while I am home alone. My choice is, do I shoot the intruder or not? If I shoot the intruder I might have to face a trial to determine self-defense or murder. But, if I don't shoot the intruder, he might kill me, and then I will be in a casket. Which is the better choice? Trial by jury, or funeral?
 
Y said:
What do u mean by this ?
if you could please re-phrase this ? thanks.

It means It is better to be tried by 12 jurours. Then to be carried by 6 pallbarers at your funeral... Better to be in court then in a grave.

I carry a Colt 40 S&W cal. 180 Grain JHP. Also a 410. buckshot Derringer. They are my personal weapons. I legally carry concealed weapons... :cool: :thumb: oooops Reba beat me to it.... sorry
 
Reba said:
"12" refers to 12 members of a jury.
"6" refers to 6 pallbearers carrying a casket.

Suppose someone breaks into my house while I am home alone. My choice is, do I shoot the intruder or not? If I shoot the intruder I might have to face a trial to determine self-defense or murder. But, if I don't shoot the intruder, he might kill me, and then I will be in a casket. Which is the better choice? Trial by jury, or funeral?

aha, of course i prefer trial by jury
than funeral !

P.S. I understand now that this is same thing as
better being tried by 12 than carried by 6....
Interesting ! At least, I'm learning something new
about this particular Slang expression... Thanks :)
 
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