French burqa ban goes into force on monday

[Aleser]

Also, I'd like to throw in here that the "identification" thing is kind of BS... I, and many many others with serious lung or immune diseases, or transplant recipients, or people undergoing chemotherapy which severely lowers their anc, etc regularly wear medical masks in public- which I would not take off for identification purposes as that would put me at undue risk of illness.

If the ban was merely for "identification" purposes, would you propose it would be fair to order that I risk my life walking around without a medical mask?

 

[Beowulf]

Yes, but if a law officer requests a woman to show her face so he can identify her, that's allowed, right?

He must have cause for the request. He cannot simply walk up to her and demand to see her face.

 

[Jiro]

Also, I'd like to throw in here that the "identification" thing is kind of BS... I, and many many others with serious lung or immune diseases, or transplant recipients, etc regularly wear medical masks in public- which I would not take off for identification purposes as that would put me at undue risk of illness.

If the ban was merely for "identification" purposes, would you propose it would be fair to order that I risk my life walking around without a medical mask?

sorry but for public safety - you'll have to remove your mask for identification purpose if requested by law enforcement. and there's a reason for it. They just don't do it whatever and whenever they want because that's against the law. You must have done something that warranted them into taking legal action against you.

same argument for a driver with heavily-tinted windows because of his skin condition.

 

[Aleser]

sorry but for public safety - you'll have to remove your mask for identification purpose if requested by law enforcement. and there's a reason for it. They just don't do it whatever and whenever they want because that's against the law. You must have done something that warranted them into taking legal action against you.

So, say, if I am caught driving without a seatbelt, would you assert that it were reasonable for an officer to force me to remove my mask (knowing that I might die or be seriously injured if I do) because I broke a law?

Or, as the case in France may be, merely having a mask on would be an act of breaking the law. Would you say it would be fair for officers near hospitals to arrest all masked patients and fine them if they don't comply and be liberated and dead?

 

[Jiro]

So, say, if I am caught driving without a seatbelt, would you assert that it were reasonable for an officer to force me to remove my mask (knowing that I might die or be seriously injured if I do) because I broke a law?

You can die or be seriously injured if you drive without seatbelt anyway.

Or, as the case in France may be, merely having a mask on would be an act of breaking the law. Would you say it would be fair for officers near hospitals to arrest all masked patients and fine them if they don't comply and be liberated and dead?

that's a fallacious argument.

 

[Reba]

Our Constitution allows freedom of religion. Not freedom from religion. It is not allowing freedom of religion only in places of worship - it specifically states that the Government cannot interfere, or respect an establishment of religion (in other words, govern via religion).

The government does regulate religious practices that could be an endangerment to the public. For example, human sacrifice, child marriage, and polygamy aren't allowed.

What France is doing is attempting to interfere with an establishment of religion.

France isn't under our Constitution, just like Saudi Arabia isn't. They don't have the same tradition, much less laws, that support freedom to worship.

Who else wears full faced veils? I know spiderman does. Is he from France? I have been pulled over while riding and wearing a full face helmet, I was never asked to remove it.

You could have been. That seems odd to me that you weren't requested to remove our helmet or at least raise your visor. That wouldn't have been unreasonable.

I can understand having to remove hats, etc. for a photo ID - but banning ballcaps everywhere is kind of ridiculous.

Everywhere? I don't think that's happened in the US.

Why aren't Muslim men ordered to shave their beards? Is that the next step? Public safety issues?

Most men's beards don't hide all their facial features.

 

[Reba]

Also, I'd like to throw in here that the "identification" thing is kind of BS... I, and many many others with serious lung or immune diseases, or transplant recipients, or people undergoing chemotherapy which severely lowers their anc, etc regularly wear medical masks in public- which I would not take off for identification purposes as that would put me at undue risk of illness.

If the ban was merely for "identification" purposes, would you propose it would be fair to order that I risk my life walking around without a medical mask?

I don't think anyone's saying you can't wear a medical mask in public. The only request is that you lower it long enough for an official to observe your face to match your features with your picture ID. It's not something that would happen often, and possibly rarely.

 

[Aleser]

I don't think anyone's saying you can't wear a medical mask in public. The only request is that you lower it long enough for an official to observe your face to match your features with your picture ID. It's not something that would happen often, and possibly rarely.

Lowering it would break the seal and render it contaminated and thus put the person at risk.

 

[Jiro]

Lowering it would break the seal and render it contaminated and thus put the person at risk.

so.... what should we do for a bank robber with mask who will pull this same medical excuse?

 

[Aleser]

You can die or be seriously injured if you drive without seatbelt anyway.


that's a fallacious argument.

Yes, I could be seriously injured without a seatbelt, but why does it become fair for the officer to put me at further risk of death?

Also, how is it fallacious? If the ban in France were genuinely against having any sort of lower face covering in public, why would it not be reasonable for an officer to arrest people as they walk out of hospitals? That would be following the -letter- of the law, if you do not wish to acknowledge that the -spirit- of the law is racist and sexist and paternalistic ("we men know better than these weak women what they really want/need"), would it not?

 

[Aleser]

so.... what should we do for a bank robber with mask who will pull this same medical excuse?

Presumably consult a doctor to establish if the person is actually ill or not.

 

[Reba]

So, say, if I am caught driving without a seatbelt, would you assert that it were reasonable for an officer to force me to remove my mask (knowing that I might die or be seriously injured if I do) because I broke a law?

I guess if you don't want to risk being stopped, you would be careful to obey the traffic laws.

It's possible (not guaranteed) that the officer might not even request you to pull down your mask while he checked your ID, if he felt he could adequately identify you without doing so.

You might want to check your attitude, too, when dealing with law officers.

Or, as the case in France may be, merely having a mask on would be an act of breaking the law. Would you say it would be fair for officers near hospitals to arrest all masked patients and fine them if they don't comply and be liberated and dead?

Number one: until we complain about the religious discrimination laws of other countries such as Saudi Arabia and China, I don't think we can fairly complain about the laws of France.

Number two: If officers in France have so much time on their hands that they can stake out hospitals for masked patients, then I guess the crime rate in France must be commendable.

 

[Jiro]

Yes, I could be seriously injured without a seatbelt, but why does it become fair for the officer to put me at further risk of death?

because they have a probable cause to do so... meaning - you must have done something that warranted them into taking a legal action against you.

Also, how is it fallacious? If the ban in France were genuinely against having any sort of lower face covering in public, why would it not be reasonable for an officer to arrest people as they walk out of hospitals? That would be following the -letter- of the law, if you do not wish to acknowledge that the -spirit- of the law is racist and sexist and paternalistic ("we men know better than these weak women what they really want/need"), would it not?

not gonna bother with this.

 

[Jiro]

Presumably consult a doctor to establish if the person is actually ill or not.

but what if you're not the person behind that mask? You could be a criminal.

 

[Reba]

Lowering it would break the seal and render it contaminated and thus put the person at risk.

Don't break any traffic laws.

What do you do if the seal breaks accidentally, or in a medical emergency, or when you eat?

 

[Aleser]

Number one: until we complain about the religious discrimination laws of other countries such as Saudi Arabia and China, I don't think we can fairly complain about the laws of France.

You do know that Saudi, arguably the most fundamentalist and we-interpret-the-qur'an-literally always country in the world, allows for the practice of religions other than Islam? You are not allowed to try and convert people, but that's about it.

 

[Reba]

Yes, I could be seriously injured without a seatbelt, but why does it become fair for the officer to put me at further risk of death?

It means that your fear of death excuse is a crock. If you truly feared for your life you wouldn't risk it by your driving habits either.

The officer doesn't put you at risk--you do by your own actions.

 

[Aleser]

Don't break any traffic laws.

What do you do if the seal breaks accidentally, or in a medical emergency, or when you eat?

If it were to break accidentally then that person would be at risk of illness. With a properly fit-tested mask, this should happen rarely or never (it has never happened to me). Likewise, in a medical emergency, the need to save that person's life would be weighed against the risk of harm of exposing them to infectious diseases. Someone who is seriously ill will not likely be eating in public, as one would have to breathe contaminated air to do so, and would also have to eat food of uncertain safety standards.

 

[Reba]

Presumably consult a doctor to establish if the person is actually ill or not.

When?

 

[Aleser]

It means that your fear of death excuse is a crock. If you truly feared for your life you wouldn't risk it by your driving habits either.

The officer doesn't put you at risk--you do by your own actions.

Okay, what if I were to be stopped by an officer for a mere parking violation wherein nobody was putting anyone's life at risk at all, but I was indeed breaking the law?

And even if I were committing a more serious crime, it is unreasonable to assert that because I have made 1 mistake, I should have my right to protect my life taken from me. Accepting 1 risk (driving without a seatbelt) should not mean being forced, as a non-natural consequence, to be subject to an entirely irrelevant risk.

Or are you the sort who believes that a woman walking down the street naked would be asking for rape and thus is not really a victim?