Lying is allowed.... Warning about lyers is not !!

[Cloggy]

I came to AllDeaf from another messageboard where opinions about deafness and hearing are more ridgid.
Even though these opinions exists here as well - which is good - there was allways a possibility to discuss the issues.
People would learn, and agree or agree to disagree.
This is the way it should be. With all the different idea's and opinion, there should be a common goal...
Misinformation and lying should not be allowed.

In my time with AllDeaf this has allways been the case and for this reason I have recommended AllDeaf to many other people that I have met on the WWW.

Recently however, I came across a thread that is actually closed now, in which the topic started explained how he had enough of the attacks made on him. Attatcked basically because he's the father of a deaf child. A parent that made the decision to let his child grow up with a CI.
A father in the same situation as me.

I have had my share of this as well, and as said before, it is part of the territory. I can handle it, and this parent has handled it as well.
What cannot be handled by us is people lying about a situation.

In another thread, a member made a rediculous accusation, a blunt lie.
Then, when the parent said he had enough, she reacted very hypocritical, in how she "likes him....

I reacted with a thread where I explained how hypocritical she was. How she had lied about me as well. About the same thing in fact.
The thread was removed, since it was deemed a "personal attatck" that had to be solve between members.
Now, this is rediculous. When someone is a hypocritical lyer, adressing that person is not going to do anything.
The point is that the other members, that do not know about the situation, should be informed.

In the end, the credibility of anything said on AllDeaf is in danger.
Since, even though most people are honest, the credibility depends on how moderators and members deal with the situation.

In this case, a member accused the father of "not using sign" (the same accusation she used against me).
Many members and also the moderators that have followed the experiences of him and me know, sorry, KNOW, this is not true.
The know it is a lie, and probably a lie to provoke another member, and still.... nobody steps in and sets it straight.

As with all societies, it is the way people tolerate injustice that shows the true identity of the society.
Ignoring this kind of behaviour is condoning it. And THAT is what I feel is happening here.
It is very disappointing, since I really thought that AllDeaf could be a place for people that want to share experiences....

Instead, it turned out to be a site where provoking blunt lies are tolerated, and where any attempt to set it straight is removed.

 

[Angel]

Boy I'm lost here...

 

[shel90]

Boy I'm lost here...

Me too..

 

[Cloggy]

It's very complicated...

What part of
"Instead, it turned out to be a site where provoking blunt lies are tolerated, and where any attempt to set it straight is removed."
is unclear ??

 

[shel90]

It's very complicated...

What part of
"Instead, it turned out to be a site where provoking blunt lies are tolerated, and where any attempt to set it straight is removed."
is unclear ??

I get what u were saying but I dont know what incident u are referring to. I dont think I lie here..I joke a lot, yes, and if people took my jokes seriously, then nothing I can do about it. I have a sarcastic personality but I dont think I told a lie here...hmmmmmm *trying to remember*

I am sorry if someone here is lying and hurting u. Hope u get it resolved.

 

[Cloggy]

Sorry Shel,

You were in the thread, but I'm not referring to you...
I can see the difference between a provocing lie, sarcasm etc.

 

[Angel]

Sorry Shel,

You were in the thread, but I'm not referring to you...
I can see the difference between a provocing lie, sarcasm etc.

Are you referring this to me hon?....I swear I'm innocent....

 

[TFWFalcon]

LOL....He is still animal....not surprise. I bet RR come in.....wait see what his reaction.....LOL.... One problem alway never resolve. That is him.

 

[shel90]

Are you referring this to me hon?....I swear I'm innocent....

U are not an innocent angel!

 

[Cloggy]

Are you referring this to me hon?....I swear I'm innocent....

No honey, (allthough "innocent" might not be a word that comes to mind when referring to you ...

My Fair Lady....
You "know" me from since I started here.
You "know" LillysDad from when he started here.

How big is the chance of anyone forgetting that I use sign with my daughter?
How big is the chance of anyone forgetting that LillysDad uses sign with his daughter?

What do you call someone that has been around long enough, but then accuses first me, then LillysDad of NOT signing with our daughters??

 

[Angel]

hehehe I was just kidding about that one Cloggy...


Ah I understand where you're coming from on this Cloggy, I know you and I had some share of debates in the CI threads, but I don't remmy if I had accuses you or Lily's dad for not signing to both of your daughters....IF I did then I apologize, sometimes I don't read every threads or posts here in AD...

Sometimes people forget things I know I have, I forget a lot of things lately but that doesn't mean I am accuses you two...You two are good fathers don't let anyone says you aren't....

 

[Cheri]

No honey, (allthough "innocent" might not be a word that comes to mind when referring to you ...

My Fair Lady....
You "know" me from since I started here.
You "know" LillysDad from when he started here.

How big is the chance of anyone forgetting that I use sign with my daughter?
How big is the chance of anyone forgetting that LillysDad uses sign with his daughter?

What do you call someone that has been around long enough, but then accuses first me, then LillysDad of NOT signing with our daughters??

Oh, I see your point of view, I don't know what happened between the other member, You and Lilysdad, but not everyone reads every members posts, maybe this member wasn't aware that you or Lilydad ever uses the method of signs. Is that possible? Instead of labeling this member a hypocritical liar.

Have this member ever debates in any of cochlear implants threads in the previous past?

To be quite honest, I didn't even know Lily's dad also uses the sign method to his daughter, I knew you do, I mostly debates with you in the previous past. Good memories.

 

[jazzy]

I checked your website about your daughter and I stayed away from u because it reminds myself of your daughter alikeness. It hurts me as hell to know what kind of life she is heading down but then again it is none of my business. You have right to raise her as u want and hope for her but we esp who were raised in oral and signing were forbid did alot of damage to our mental health in long run. I do not know about lairs, only deafies know the truth what it is alike be deaf and living in this world where they do not accept us for who we are. We are still struggle with them because of their empowering over us. If u believe one of poster is lying then u may be wrong about her/him.

 

[jazzy]

No honey, (allthough "innocent" might not be a word that comes to mind when referring to you ...

My Fair Lady....
You "know" me from since I started here.
You "know" LillysDad from when he started here.

How big is the chance of anyone forgetting that I use sign with my daughter?
How big is the chance of anyone forgetting that LillysDad uses sign with his daughter?

What do you call someone that has been around long enough, but then accuses first me, then LillysDad of NOT signing with our daughters??

I did not forgot u to use sign with your daughter but from what I read on your website. It says something else. U wanted her to speak and use less sign which it is fine but then when u want her to go to regualr classroom and expect her to understand her teachers all the time then I do not agree with u. She is still deaf and she will always be isolated in her peers. She needs to make friends with others who are alike her, not hearing but deaf kids with/without CI.

 

[shel90]

I did not forgot u to use sign with your daughter but from what I read on your website. It says something else. U wanted her to speak and use less sign which it is fine but then when u want her to go to regualr classroom and expect her to understand her teachers all the time then I do not agree with u. She is still deaf and she will always be isolated in her peers. She needs to make friends with others who are alike her, not hearing but deaf kids with/without CI.

Now I remember that and that was when I made the assumption that Cloggy didnt see the importance of sign language. Maybe others saw it that way?

About Lillysdad...he did mention that his daughter goes to an oral-only school in which using sign language was forbidden but using it out was ok. I dont get that at all in an educational setting but none of my business.

Those kind of statements could have caused some ADers make that assumption that u and Lillysdad didnt believe in signing. Maybe it was an incorrection assumption not an outright lie?

 

[Angel]

How can you communicate with a deaf child who cannot speak? ...sometimes deaf children may feel unwelcome or uncomfortable around their families, parents, neighbors, and other children who do not know how to communicate with them, some may laugh at them , tease them or making them feel left out, it can be hard on the deaf child and the parents as well too, and what the parents needs to do is build a bridge between the hearing and the deaf communities by making sure they teach their children to speak and sign so their children can communicate with their parents, and others around them...IF we don't teach deaf children to speak, then how are they be able to communicate with their neighbors' children, or children at school etc....

If I had a deaf child, I would prefer my child to speak and signs too, but more of speaking because I want my deaf children enroll in mainstream then putting them into a deaf school where they won't be able to develop their speech or language skills....I've seen some deaf people telling hearing parents to teach their deaf children ASL because it more of deaf language than SEE, well I would rather to choose SEE than ASL...and I will not like it if a others telling me what I should do with my deaf children or how I should raise them the way they want me to, they're not theirs they're mine and I choose any language methods that I believe that will work well for me and my children....

 

[shel90]

How can you communicate with a deaf child who cannot speak? ...sometimes deaf children may feel unwelcome or uncomfortable around their families, parents, neighbors, and other children who do not know how to communicate with them, some may laugh at them , tease them or making them feel left out, it can be hard on the deaf child and the parents as well too, and what the parents needs to do is build a bridge between the hearing and the deaf communities by making sure they teach their children to speak and sign so their children can communicate with their parents, and others around them...IF we don't teach deaf children to speak, then how are they be able to communicate with their neighbors' children, or children at school etc....

If I had a deaf child, I would prefer my child to speak and signs too, but more of speaking because I want my deaf children enroll in mainstream then putting them into a deaf school where they won't be able to develop their speech or language skills....I've seen some deaf people telling hearing parents to teach their deaf children ASL because it more of deaf language than SEE, well I would rather to choose SEE than ASL...and I will not like it if a others telling me what I should do with my deaf children or how I should raise them the way they want me to, they're not theirs they're mine and I choose any language methods that I believe that will work well with me and my children....

Well, my brother was not able to learn good enough speech or lipreading skills no matter how much time he spent in speech therapy during his first 5 years but he was lucky enough to pick up ASL so fast in his first year at the deaf school enabling him to be ready to read and write. He found ways to communicate with the neighborhood kids.

Well..what if the method u are using doesnt work on your deaf child and u dont know what to do? We are not telling the parents what to do but to keep some things in mind if any of those issues pop up.

SEE is not a language...it is a visual code of English and believe me I have read on studies about SEE and how it worked. Most of the studies showed that deaf children who already have a strong L1 language was able to do fine in SEE but those who dont have a strong L1 language did poorly with SEE due to so many abstract words being signed that have no meaning to the child. So, how do we ensure that deaf children acquire a fully developed language before the age of 5? Many would say use the oral approach but that is risky..cuz it may not work so why not both ASL and oral? ASL has been proven to be a separate language.

For myself, I believe in the same thing as u do..teach the child to sign and speak just in case the child isnt able to develop language thru speaking...at least he/she can do that with signing and enter school with a strong language instead of a weak one. That's all I care about...I see too many deaf kids in my field with almost no concepts that children their age should have..like some of my students have no concept of today, yesterday and tmw and they are 9 years old cuz they came to our school with a very weak language so all of sudden they have to learn all these new concepts when their language level is of a 2 or 3 year old. I cant help but think if they had full access to language during their first 5 years, they wouldnt be struggling with simple concepts. Speaking is not as important to me as having knowledge and if people dont like it, that's fine but I am looking out for the kids' best interest when it comes to academics and social-emotional development. One of my 9 year old student throws full-fledged temper tantrums on the floor when she doesnt get her way cuz she cant understand the concept of sharing. All I am asking of the parents to pls ensure that their children have FULL access to language 24/7 using both ASL and English.

 

[Cheri]

All I am asking of the parents to pls ensure that their children have FULL access to language 24/7 using both ASL and English.

I agreed! I always believe that total communication is the best communication method for the deaf. I think it's very important to benefited from both, because they could use that method in both worlds. (hearing and deaf)

But, I don't agree with using the method of ASL only for the deaf, don't get me wrong, ASL is a great and beautiful language, yet I've came to noticed that it cause some grammatical errors on how they write, because they're using the method of signs only. I think it's important to have that ability to use both (English and ASL) so they can write better in sentences.

 

[shel90]

I agreed! I always believe that total communication is the best communication method for the deaf. I think it's very important to benefited from both, because they could use that method in both worlds. (hearing and deaf)

But, I don't agree with using the method of ASL only for the deaf, don't get me wrong, ASL is a great and beautiful language, yet I've came to noticed that it cause some grammatical errors on how they write, because they're using the method of signs only. I think it's important to have that ability to use both (English and ASL) so they can write better in sentences.

I agree..I am talking about the first 5 years so the child is able to acquire a strong language and then they will be ready to be taught in SEE, Cued , spoken or whatever to teach them read and write. That's what I mean...use ASL and oral for language development during the first 5 years. The older kids in middle school are being taught in SEE for writing classes..not sure about reading. Just would be nice if 5,6,7 and 8 year olds have their language level at their age appropriate level so we can use whatever methods to teach them read and write.

I am teaching my students how to read word for word in signing and then covering up the sentences and they have to sign the concepts or main ideas using ASL cuz that way it shows me that they understand the context of the passage rather than just signing word for word without understanding what is being said. They are still unable to retell using ASL or "in their own words" but instead try to memorize the sentences word for word which shows me that they either dont understand the concept of reading itself or dont comprehend what is being said in the sentence or story. Even hearing kids have to retell what they read in their own words using their version of what they read. That is one of the many ways we, teachers, test children on reading comprehension.

If the child doesnt have a strong language, then they arent ready to be taught that skill just like u wont expect a 3 year old to be ready for that skill unless the 3 year old is a genius, right? That's why babies and toddlers need to develop their language and by the age of 5, they are ready for school and academics. My goal is that deaf/hoh children get the same opportunities to develop their language at the age appropriate level.

Since English and ASL are proven languages, I think they only should be used for language development and then use TC to teach reading and writing. It is hard to do that if our students dont have a language level equivalent of their same age hearing counterparts so we need to work with them on developing their language to the point where they are ready to tackle on reading and writing. That's what woke me up about deaf schools..I used to blame deaf schools for many children being delayed in reading and writing until I became a teacher myself..now I can see why.

 

[Cloggy]

Sidertracking on the subject of using sign. That's something we agree to disagree with. That's how it should be.

The subject, or question is...

When somebody lies, and you can prove it.... why is it then impossible to explain this to other members. Show how someone is intentionally lying to discredit you...
The accusation has been done, but there's no way to reply, except saying "Yes I do" or "No I didn't"

This is not about having different opinions.!! This is about members making sure that other memers act with respect.

Like I said before... No saying antything is condoning.!!