The "Mainstreaming" Experience: "Isolated cases"?

Agree. Unfortunately, accounts from deaf people about their personal experiences are usually dismissed on this forum. It often "fall on deaf ears." *pun intended*
 
GrendelQ said:
A child's natural language is whatever language he or she is immersed in on a daily basis, what he or she acquires in the home, in school, in the community. If in an ASL-rich environment where that language is dominant, then yes. If in an English language environment, able to access that language, then English is natural. That's what studies and common language show. (source: Google, RIT, Oxford Handbook of Deaf Studies, etc.)

edit: common language ==> common knowledge
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So, by what you have just stated here is that because I was raised only knowing English (only one deaf in a hearing family, knowing no deaf people at all until 2 years ago), without any access to sign language, went to several mainstream schools throughout my school life, oral only, with no accomodations, that English would be my 'natural' language. Hogwash! If it were 'natural' to me then why is it such an effort everyday for me to speak, oh I can speak well, so others tell me, but it doesn't come 'naturally' to me at all. I have to work hard at speaking, each and every word, each and every day, day in and day out, and it hasn't got any better after nearly 48 years of using my voice. It is exhausting to say the least, yet if you want to emphasise on the acquistion of speech, it is achieveable but not without a price and not without using every bit of visual cues to assist me since I didn't know sign language.

I have been learning sign language since I joined AllDeaf. I find it comes naturally to me, I am comprehending much much faster than anything else I have ever studied. I realised when I began to learn sign language that I have always depended on visual cues: gestures, facial expressions, lipreading, body language - sign language is a much higher expression because it is actual language with cognitive, syntax, and everything that constitutes a language in its fullest sense.
 
because you do not have access to hearing the language. Deaf kids today DO have access to the entirety of spoken language.
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Wrong. They hear like a hoh kid.I'd also be HIGHLY HIGHLY skeptical of claims like that.
Yes, this generation of oral kids is doing a lot better, but they still aren't acheiving on a par with hearing kids. That just means that they're not spending years and years at a private deaf program. They are still struggling......
but the majority never learn ASL and never become a part of the deaf community. They remain oral.
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Oh really? Then how come it's common to see ASL 'terps used at AG Bell conferences? How come at alumn reunions at Clarke, CID, DePaul, Sunshine Cottage etc there's a HUGE number of ASL users?
 
Oh and it IS far too soon to sound the death knell for ASL.
Yes,a significent number of kids are doing well enough so they are functionally hoh. The days of "oral" meaning "has about 50 or 60 words at age five are long gone.
But the question is.....are their verbal IQs on a par with hearing kids? Even a lot of HOH kids have lower educational acheivement. You do know that disabled kids tend to score LOWER then hearing kids on acheivement tests. That includes a lot of oral and mainstreamed dhh kids! :shock:
You're also assuming that the educational placement is going to be static. Like if it's origionally oral, it will stay oral. Some of the people who opted for oral, for preschool may switch to programs that use ASL later on, especially in middle school and high school. A lot of parents may just have been concerned about their kids learning to talk and hear...
I do think a lot of the decision to oralize and mainstream the kids is based on very very outdated crap...and we'll have a HUGE generation of kids in a few years posting here, that they wish they'd learned ASL in school and stuff.
 
BecLak said:
So, by what you have just stated here is that because I was raised only knowing English (only one deaf in a hearing family, knowing no deaf people at all until 2 years ago), without any access to sign language, went to several mainstream schools throughout my school life, oral only, with no accomodations, that English would be my 'natural' language. Hogwash! ...
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No. I wasn't addressing you specifically. But based on what you say, you may not have acquired a "natural language. I can't recall exactly, but think you said you have mod/severe hearing loss, is that right? So as a child, maybe you had limited access to speech sounds, and English was not accessible to you. Some do not acquire language naturally during their first couple of years and have to learn language later. You need to have access to either signed or spoken language in your first couple of years to develop language naturally.

Learning ASL may "feel" natural to you, and become your primary language, and that's great, but it's not what you acquired in your environment during your formative years, is it?
 
Ya know.. I'm genuinely curious. A few pages back, there was a lot of talk about how many mainstreamed deaf kids complain about being mainstreamed, a few here on AD.

However, I'm wondering what you THINK is the percentage of kids being mainstreamed that are unhappy with the environment. People have mentioned that probably a good number of them never become a part of the Deaf community and probably will never interact with any other deaf people, especially Deaf people. So, there are really 2 groups of people: 1) Those who are unhappy and joined the Deaf community. 2) Those who are unhappy and they just don't know it yet.

I am willing to bet that #1 is a relatively small percentage of the whole mainstreamed population.

I am also willing to bet that a few posters here believe that #2 is 100%. Am I right?

I am all about education, so my focus is more about the educational development of an individual (high school and more). Most people here focuses on the elementary school years, which is fine and I am sure that it has a huge connection to the later years. But... NO ONE TALKS ABOUT THE LATER YEARS, because a lot of them blind-faithfully assume that if a child simply uses ASL, he's all good for the rest of his life. That's like saying, "Oh, as long my hearing child uses English, he's all good for the rest of his life."

Food for thought: If you have 2 stereotypical group of kids and one went to a mediocre school with a low college acceptance rate and another group went to a strict school with a high college acceptance rate, do you think you will receive the same number of complaints from the kids from each group?
 
Wirelessly posted

deafdyke said:
because you do not have access to hearing the language. Deaf kids today DO have access to the entirety of spoken language.
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Wrong. They hear like a hoh kid.I'd also be HIGHLY HIGHLY skeptical of claims like that.
Yes, this generation of oral kids is doing a lot better, but they still aren't acheiving on a par with hearing kids. That just means that they're not spending years and years at a private deaf program. They are still struggling......
but the majority never learn ASL and never become a part of the deaf community. They remain oral.
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Oh really? Then how come it's common to see ASL 'terps used at AG Bell conferences? How come at alumn reunions at Clarke, CID, DePaul, Sunshine Cottage etc there's a HUGE number of ASL users?
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except there is research showing that they ARE catching up to their peers.
 
Wirelessly posted

oh and DD, at my daughter's oral school, they don't consider a child "caught up" until their verbal IQ matches their non-verbal. That is standard practice today. If you a 50th percentile kid, then the 50th percentile is fine, but if you are a 95th kid, you aren't meeting your potential until you are in the 95th.
 
Daredevel7 said:
Food for thought: If you have 2 stereotypical group of kids and one went to a mediocre school with a low college acceptance rate and another group went to a strict school with a high college acceptance rate, do you think you will receive the same number of complaints from the kids from each group?
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That's an interesting perspective, Daredevel. Sort of gets at a question I often have when people mock or express outrage at the activities we engage our children in, the drive to ensure they have full communication opportunities (either sign or spoken) by including language professionals in our children's lives, incorporating learning into play: do some think the bar should be lowered for our deaf children (academically, socially) to reduce the challenges they encounter? Would making school a strictly social experience, rather than an academic challenge, provide a better life as an adult? If a deaf child has an easy ride and lowered expectations through primary and secondary school, what does day one at MIT or Harvard feel like if the cushioning is gone and expectations are the same for all students? Or at any college where he or she is going to be exposed to brilliant minds among peers and faculty alike.

It's an issue I think about with my daughter -- I tend to want to balance her experience, at least early on, making school something she looks forward to as a social experience, slipping the learning and language development into the mix without her realizing it. But as she grows older, I expect school to become far more of a rigorous academic environment, with more opportunities to drink from the firehouse rather than be spoonfed a bit of knowledge with a side of sugar.
 
GrendelQ said:
That's an interesting perspective, Daredevel. Sort of gets at a question I often have when people mock or express outrage at the activities we engage our children in, the drive to ensure they have full communication opportunities (either sign or spoken) by including language professionals in our children's lives, incorporating learning into play: do some think the bar should be lowered for our deaf children (academically, socially) to reduce the challenges they encounter? Would making school a strictly social experience, rather than an academic challenge, provide a better life as an adult? If a deaf child has an easy ride and lowered expectations through primary and secondary school, what does day one at MIT or Harvard feel like if the cushioning is gone and expectations are the same for all students? Or at any college where he or she is going to be exposed to brilliant minds among peers and faculty alike.

It's an issue I think about with my daughter -- I tend to want to balance her experience, at least early on, making school something she looks forward to as a social experience, slipping the learning and language development into the mix without her realizing it. But as she grows older, I expect school to become far more of a rigorous academic environment, with more opportunities to drink from the firehouse rather than be spoonfed a bit of knowledge with a side of sugar.
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To the bolded , it might. I didn't understand anything going on in school,( I am one of those old mainstreamers with limited technology then ), my father basically did my work for me. Other children completely rejected me and bullied me.

I had one friend, who wanted to grow up to be a special ed teacher. She did and worked with autistic kids. We corresponded, but she died of cancer a while back.

So mostly my school experience was just torture when I look back on it. Of course I may have done just as bad in a deaf school as I am just different.

The internet rather than the deaf community has be my salvation and lifeline, and I will go to my grave having learned many things all on my own due to technology that I can understand and apply.
 
GrendelQ said:
That's an interesting perspective, Daredevel. Sort of gets at a question I often have when people mock or express outrage at the activities we engage our children in, the drive to ensure they have full communication opportunities (either sign or spoken) by including language professionals in our children's lives, incorporating learning into play: do some think the bar should be lowered for our deaf children (academically, socially) to reduce the challenges they encounter? Would making school a strictly social experience, rather than an academic challenge, provide a better life as an adult? If a deaf child has an easy ride and lowered expectations through primary and secondary school, what does day one at MIT or Harvard feel like if the cushioning is gone and expectations are the same for all students? Or at any college where he or she is going to be exposed to brilliant minds among peers and faculty alike.
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It's tough balancing the social and academia aspect of a deaf child's education. It seems like most of the time, moving across states is needed in order to get a good deaf school that can provide both the social and academia aspect at a level that is on par with, at least, the average hearing school.

I've watched it happen personally with a family member. Mother moves to Missouri to take deaf child to well known deaf school, father stays in Miami to work and provide for the child. Parents divorced (I don't know if its the long distance or what, not gonna make assumptions). Deaf child visits dad in Miami every other holiday and for some breaks.

Just saying..... choosing on what to do for deaf child is not that simple.
 
If there is any positive... The laws of become more stringent with IDEA (and when it was reauthorized in '04 I believe), so students have more rights and protections than in the past. It has also essentially become the norm to provide supplemental devices (FM system for example) and services to help the students access the curriculum. Students are also legally entitled to an interpreter, the student/family just needs to request one. SD's can complain, but they'd be in a terrible position if a compliance complaint or due process was filed.

I don't think the mainstream is peaches and cream, but I do think the supports and services have improved from even 20 years ago.
 
GrendelQ said:
No. I wasn't addressing you specifically. But based on what you say, you may not have acquired a "natural language. I can't recall exactly, but think you said you have mod/severe hearing loss, is that right? So as a child, maybe you had limited access to speech sounds, and English was not accessible to you. Some do not acquire language naturally during their first couple of years and have to learn language later. You need to have access to either signed or spoken language in your first couple of years to develop language naturally.

Learning ASL may "feel" natural to you, and become your primary language, and that's great, but it's not what you acquired in your environment during your formative years, is it?
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Read my signature.

I know you weren't addressing me specifically, did I ever say that? No. I am responding to your comment on 'natural language'. You were saying that whatever language you are most exposed to especially in your formative years is your natural language, I am say plain as day it is not necessarily. A spoken language such as English, most likely would that is if you are hearing, but for deaf certainly not. As someone who is severely-deaf, English or any other spoken language is not my natural language nor will it ever be. Though you can see I have mastered English but that is not the point here. Sign or visual language is the natural language for those who are Deaf. And from my own experience, it doesn't matter what degree of hearing loss one may have, that person still has to rely on some type of visual communication.
 
DD, I'm not sure I identify with either #1 or #2. Growing up, I had ASL and English (spoken and written). I would say about 50% of my deaf friends were mainstreamed like I. (The other 50% being at the deaf schools.)

Your #1 about being unhappy and joined the deaf community -- doesn't apply because we all already were part of the deaf community while growing up.

Your #2 about being unhappy and don't know it -- I guess I don't see that among my mainstreamed friends. Meaning that even though I had an unhappy upbringing, I feel very happy today. While I may bear emotional scars from my school days, I've learned to let that go and just be a normal adult. I think most of my friends are the same.

So, I guess there needs to be an Option #3. And not that there are only 2 groups of people ..
 
AlleyCat said:
DD, I'm not sure I identify with either #1 or #2. Growing up, I had ASL and English (spoken and written). I would say about 50% of my deaf friends were mainstreamed like I. (The other 50% being at the deaf schools.)

Your #1 about being unhappy and joined the deaf community -- doesn't apply because we all already were part of the deaf community while growing up.

Your #2 about being unhappy and don't know it -- I guess I don't see that among my mainstreamed friends. Meaning that even though I had an unhappy upbringing, I feel very happy today. While I may bear emotional scars from my school days, I've learned to let that go and just be a normal adult. I think most of my friends are the same.

So, I guess there needs to be an Option #3. And not that there are only 2 groups of people ..
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Thanks for explaining.

Just to clarify, I wasn't saying that ALL mainstreamed people MUST fit into one of those categories. I was asking what percentage of mainstreamed people are unhappy, but I realized that there really are two types of people that fit into the "unhappy people". We know that there are other mainstreamed people out there who never interacted with other deaf people (or at least, only a few other oral deaf people). Basically, they never learned ASL. However, I am willing to bet that there are many people here who say "Yea, they THINK they are happy, but once they learn sign and interact with Deaf people, they are going to realize how miserable they are." Hence, the "unhappy but don't know it" people

So I just wanted to see what percentage of mainstreamed people do AD-ers think are unhappy and joined the Deaf community (learned sign, made Deaf friends, etc)? And what percentage of mainstreamed people do AD-ers think are unhappy even though they still don't know ASL nor interacted with other Deaf people?

The actual statistics is unquantifiable due to the subjective word "unhappy" but I'm sure a few AD-ers have their idea of how many due to their experiences.
 
BecLak said:
I know you weren't addressing me specifically, did I ever say that? No.
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Actually, you did.

BecLak said:
So, by what you have just stated here is that because I was raised only knowing English (only one deaf in a hearing family, knowing no deaf people at all until 2 years ago), without any access to sign language, went to several mainstream schools throughout my school life, oral only, with no accomodations, that English would be my 'natural' language. Hogwash! ...
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But no big deal. :)
 
Daredevel7 said:
Thanks for explaining.

Just to clarify, I wasn't saying that ALL mainstreamed people MUST fit into one of those categories. I was asking what percentage of mainstreamed people are unhappy, but I realized that there really are two types of people that fit into the "unhappy people". We know that there are other mainstreamed people out there who never interacted with other deaf people (or at least, only a few other oral deaf people). Basically, they never learned ASL. However, I am willing to bet that there are many people here who say "Yea, they THINK they are happy, but once they learn sign and interact with Deaf people, they are going to realize how miserable they are." Hence, the "unhappy but don't know it" people

So I just wanted to see what percentage of mainstreamed people do AD-ers think are unhappy and joined the Deaf community (learned sign, made Deaf friends, etc)? And what percentage of mainstreamed people do AD-ers think are unhappy even though they still don't know ASL nor interacted with other Deaf people?

The actual statistics is unquantifiable due to the subjective word "unhappy" but I'm sure a few AD-ers have their idea of how many due to their experiences.
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Gotcha. The bolded part - that I do not know. I guess, while I hated my school experience, I was lucky to have deaf friends (even though they were outside of my school), went to deaf camp in the summer, etc. that my "community" consists of those who were lucky to be part of the deaf community growing up.
 
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