India, China won't sign Copenhagen Accord

[Jiro]

Um, noticed that I bolded this part I outlined previously?



I repeatedly said that environmental activists were willing to take actions by protesting even if it meant risking jailing or worse.

Secondly, the number of people participating isn't small nor are they obscure.

Thirdly, environmental activism is growing. They want clean air, water and land just as we do.

I made it clear time and time again. They are essentially in the same stage as we were during the 70s as they continue to organize and become more coherent in their goals and strategies.

So, do you agree that environmental activism by locals in China is growing?

I've already answered that several times. Look back.

 

[Foxrac]

Foxrac, be sure to understand that this has nothing to do with "right wing" discussion. This is about the fact that environmental activism is taking place in China, of which you have tried to discredit and mock such an idea.

It's happening.

Why are you worry about China?

 

[kokonut]

I've already answered that several times. Look back.

What Jiro said after I posted this:

I care. Just that we went through the very same thing and it took local grassroots organizations to change our pollution laws. It didn't take a foreign country to try and somehow stop our own polluting ways by making demands. There are already developing grassroots organizations in China who are trying to get China to stop or reduce their pollution levels that are impacting their own Chinese citizens.

Jiro responded in such a manner that sowed doubts that environmental activism would be successful (of which isn't true, it's ongoing and evolving) and people are not able to inform and change things when it comes to clean water, air and land (again, false).

local grassroots organizations? in China? lolololol good luck....

Shows extreme doubt (i.e. "good luck"). There have been many succesful environmental awareness campaigns in China by local citizens.

It was possible here to change things because we have something called Democracy and Constitution. I don't think those 2 concepts are somewhere in a communist country.

Believes that it isn't possible to change things in China in regards to environmental concerns (I've shown this to be false already) simply because of China's current form of government.
http://www.alldeaf.com/current-even...ont-sign-copenhagen-accord-2.html#post1514884


So, sure. Jiro did in fact answered my question by not believing environmental activism has worked in China. These activists do get arrested. Jailed. Maybe even torture and death. But by and large environmental activism continues to grow and gain awarness.

 

[Loghead]

Just because China and India didn't sign the deal does not mean that global warming isn't happening. What it does mean is that China and India could care less about global warming, and I don't blame them.

Look at how far we've advanced in Canada and the United States. It took a lot of polluting for us to get to where we are today. China and India have just started advancing. In order to catch up to us, they must pollute. If it was OK for us to pollute over the years to advance us to the state we are in now, why isn't it OK for them?

 

[Foxrac]

Just because China and India didn't sign the deal does not mean that global warming isn't happening. What it does mean is that China and India could care less about global warming, and I don't blame them.

Look at how far we've advanced in Canada and the United States. It took a lot of polluting for us to get to where we are today. China and India have just started advancing. In order to catch up to us, they must pollute. If it was OK for us to pollute over the years to advance us to the state we are in now, why isn't it OK for them?

Yup, you are well informed.

 

[Jiro]

What Jiro said after I posted this:




Jiro responded in such a manner that sowed doubts that environmental activism would be successful (of which isn't true, it's ongoing and evolving) and people are not able to inform and change things when it comes to clean water, air and land (again, false).


Shows extreme doubt (i.e. "good luck"). There have been many succesful environmental awareness campaigns in China by local citizens.



Believes that it isn't possible to change things in China in regards to environmental concerns (I've shown this to be false already) simply because of China's current form of government.
http://www.alldeaf.com/current-even...ont-sign-copenhagen-accord-2.html#post1514884


So, sure. Jiro did in fact answered my question by not believing environmental activism has worked in China. These activists do get arrested. Jailed. Maybe even torture and death. But by and large environmental activism continues to grow and gain awarness.

awwww resorting to sleezy tactic by selecting this and that to take it out of context along with your spinning to make yourself looks good?

here it is -

I haven't see any solid strong fact that environmental activism in China is growing. Yes I see that it's growing but it's growing at insignificant speed. After all.... the key leaders were censored, arrested, and shuffled away....

1. You continued to fail to show me the exact post where I have said that it will NEVER work.
2. You continued to make it sound they're on the path toward to American idealism.
3. You continued to make it sound like the Chinese government is falling apart

All of my posts were to show you that your optimism isn't just too realistic. hence - my posts to you - China has 5,000 years of history.... and America has barely 300 years of history.... and several other posts about China's stance on environmental issue.

Beside - this thread has no right or wrong answer. Neither one of us is right or wrong. We both showed the both sides of the story so exactly what are you trying to prove? This is the thread where we can agree to disagree.

 

[kokonut]

I haven't see any solid strong fact that environmental activism in China is growing. Yes I see that it's growing but it's growing at insignificant speed. After all.... the key leaders were censored, arrested, and shuffled away....

First you say "I haven't seen any solid strong fact that environmental activism in China is growing.."

and then turn it around...

"Yes I see that it's growing but it's growing at insignificant speed."

Interesting.

It's growing. Period. Whether it's growing fast or slow doesn't matter. It is growing. From 1994 when there were no NGOs to 2005 when they had over 2,000 NGOs on environmental activism. That's growth. And there can be no argument about it.

 

[kokonut]

Here are the "hard facts" (as you put it, Jiro) about NGOs and how environmental activism has grown and continues to grow, adapt, and re-structure themselves to become more efficient as a result. Growing environmental awareness is happening in China. That is undeniable.

A Report on the Development of Environmental NGOs in China
Last modified November 30, 2009 15:23
Since July 2009 JFS has hosted a Chinese intern student for six months. Taking this as an opportunity to learn about the current situation of environmental protection in China, we asked him for a report on Chinese environmental NGOs, their development and challenges. Here is his report.

History & Growth

In 1993 when Beijing was selected as a candidate city for the 2008 summer Olympics, officials from the International Olympic Committee (IOC) asked representatives from Beijing Olympic committee about the non-governmental environmental movement in Beijing. Representatives from Beijing did not know how to answer this question because the word NGO was new to them.

In order to establish a NGO in mainland China, one has to register the organization according to the Social Organizations Registration and Administration Act to obtain legal status. Organizations without legal status are prohibited from accepting outside donations. Also required is a regular business location, full-time staff, registration capital of more than thirty thousand yuan (about US$ 4,200) and official documents with a stamp of approval from a governmental agency that has been designated as a "supervising office."

One year later, in 1994, the first formally registered Chinese environmental NGO, Friends of Nature was founded by Mr. Congjie Liang. This was quickly followed by Global Village Beijing in 1995, which was registered as a private business entity under the Bureau of Industry and Commerce. Since that time, officially, more than 3,500 NGOs have formally registered in either form (2008).

Looking back at this history of growth, three periods categorize the development of environmental NGOs in China.

The first period (1994-2000) is best described as "saving the nature." NGO activities in this period had three basic features: first, promoting general environmental awareness; second, lacking participants and support from the general public; and third, nature-preservation-centered initiatives.

Unlike NGOs from industrial countries like Japan, which start activities from fighting against industrial pollutions, Chinese environmental NGO pioneers begin with wildlife protection, water conservation and other ecological activities. Friends of Nature focused on saving endangered animals in the western part of China in its very early years.

The reasons why Chinese environmental NGOs started from protecting nature instead of fighting industrial pollution mainly attribute to two factors: social-economic and cultural.

On the one hand, during the period 1994-2000, the Chinese government adopted massive investment strategies for industry and successfully created much social wealth for the nation. Compared with the dramatic improvements of living standard brought by industrial development, industrial pollution problem at that time was not a major concern. Besides, most of society was not directly affected by pollution because most of the waste was transported to rural and undeveloped areas.

On the other hand, the first pioneers of Chinese environmental NGOs were mostly nature-lovers or outdoor-sports lovers. Their activities and interests were seriously influenced by industrialization and pollution in rural areas. Many outdoor activities and eco-tour sites were severely impacted. For these nature-lovers, starting an environmental NGO would not only help save nature but also save their interests and passions.

The second period (2000-2005) is what I called the "national involvement time" for environmental NGOs. The real force of such national involvement was the unique political power of China. Politicians in China had a strong power to connect citizen's personal vision and development with the whole nation's future.

Things that are positive for national growth will be favored by each citizen and interestingly, most citizens tended to think of themselves as important contributors to the nation. The "Go West" government campaign in 1994 and the "Green Beijing Olympics Initiatives" in 2001 were two good examples on how a national environmental vision stimulated the growth of individual environmental involvement. In this period, Chinese citizens' strong patriotism was tightly connected with their public environmental contribution.

The third period (2005 to now) is best summarized as "serious NGO period." With the rise of the Chinese economy and the degradation of the domestic environment, more and more Chinese people are thinking about environmental issues seriously. From 2005 to 2008, the number of environmental NGOs increased from 2,758 to 3,559.

Thanks to globalization and the exposure of China's great potential to the world through media, Chinese local environmental NGOs have started to cooperate with foreign forces to improve their own professional level and to gather more funds. Many new NGOs were founded by Chinese youths who have experience in developed countries like the United States or by pro-China foreigners. Foreign environmental NGOs in China have also been very active.

Measures by Central Government

In 1999 there was the "Go West" campaign initiated by Chairman Jiang Zemin. It was an effort to develop the western part of China and bring living standards closer to those of the coastal region. The government set out ecological construction or environmental protection as one of the five major parts of this campaign. In response to this campaign, many new environmental NGOs were founded in the western part of China, particularly in Yunnan province. They worked together with governments to protect the ecosystem in western China by keeping it from the damage of massive construction projects.

In 2001 after Beijing was selected to be the host for the 2008 Olympic Games, the organizing committee, mainly the Beijing city government, announced the "Green Olympics" campaign. Local environmental NGOs had increased dramatically to help the government achieve this goal. The "26 degrees Celsius" was a campaign in Beijing aiming to make hotels, restaurants and other public spaces keep their thermostats set higher, at 26 degrees Celsius during the summer, for energy conservation. "No Car Day" is another campaign launched by environmental NGOs.

After 2005, as the Beijing Olympics approached and the central government was making massive investments to develop clean energies and other environmental construction projects, new environmental NGOs were founded in all fields in response to government measures. After the new government administration began in early 2005, the Chinese central government became ever more transparent regarding environmental issues, declaring the message of sustainable development and inspiring many professionals to take part in the fight for global warming.

Public & Media Recognition

Internet has become one of the most influencing factors of the growth of China's environmental NGOs. Beginning early in 2000 with the dramatic growth of Internet service throughout China, environmental NGOs started to communicate with their volunteers and stakeholders through their own websites. Having its own website was at one time a fashion to newly-started NGOs. Today, many Chinese environmental NGOs have set up online donation systems for their volunteers as the main means of obtaining financial support.

Business sectors are also a part of the recognition. Many international companies as well as large domestic companies have established funds or competitions for Chinese youths who are willing to take "green" initiatives. Google (China) launched a program in 2007 to encourage youths to start new organizations or projects and this program has been very popular among youth in China.

The word "volunteer" appears in China even before the first environmental NGO was founded. Chinese people, especially youth, like to help each other and treat each other as family. Thus environment volunteering has become very popular in China since the beginning of the twenty-first century. Chinese universities usually have summer assignments for students that require them to volunteer a certain amount of time and write a report. Environment volunteering has become one of the most popular types of summer volunteering.

Environment clubs are very popular in Chinese universities, particularly in the past three years. Many inter-collegiate programs have been founded, such the China Youth Climate Action Network (CYCAN).

China Youth Climate Action Network (CYCAN) ????????????(CYCAN)

Challenges

China's environmental NGOs are becoming an indispensible force both for China and for the world as a whole, as China is taking more and more responsibility on the issue of climate change. In the past 15 years, the number of environmental NGOs in China has evolved in quantity (from zero to more than 3,000) and in quality, yet compared to the heavy environment responsibility China is about to take, this growth is still not enough. In this report, I suggest the following to help solve these problems:
International Learning: Many Chinese environmental NGOs are small with around 100 membership, and thus has not gained much professional experiences. Chinese environmental NGO leaders should learn more from their counterparts in other places of the world. More foreign help is needed in China to educate and train the young movement with professional skills in project management, fundraising skills, grant writing and organizational management.

Inter-organizational Communication: An efficient inter-organizational communication system will help NGOs connect with each other faster and distribute resources more efficiently. Competition should be reduced and cooperation should be encouraged.

Government Change: Environmental NGOs cannot fully grow under the current legal system, so changes are needed. Academics, businesses and NGOs should all work together to push the government to make in the NGO regulation and registration system.

Fifteen years of history for China's environmental NGOs have proven the determination and persistence of Chinese environment activists, even under harsh political and local conditions. Yet another change is needed at this point of history, where the survival of humanity is at risk due to climate change and other environmental issues.

Admittedly, the Chinese Central Government will still be the key player in this fight in China, but without NGOs, I can hardly imagine that the government can solve the problems alone. It is time for the Chinese government to see the need for such changes in order to recognize and cooperate with NGOs and it is time for China's environmental NGOs to work even harder. China's environmental NGOs need to be ready to take leadership positions in the coming era of change for the global environment.

Written by Jian Gong

Source: Japan for Sustainability

A Report on the Development of Environmental NGOs in China — International Society for Agricultural Meteorology

 

[Foxrac]

Sorry, sorry, what happen to Chinese government after you did protest, there's answer below.

China is still communist country as today and don't see any change, despite on bunches of link so for core of Chinese government will not change so I know.

 

[kokonut]

Ah, you must have that crystal ball thingy somewhere then? With the future, anything can happen.

 

[Foxrac]

Ah, you must have that crystal ball thingy somewhere then? With the future, anything can happen.

No, I don't use crystal ball.

I know about how communist government is going on and they care about stability in their country so it means will be not much change, even no democracy or personal freedom in China in anytime until revolution has wake up.

1989 Tiananmen Square protest failed to change the Chinese government since they are still communist since all former USSR, Eastern Europe and Cambodia were fall of communist and transitioned to capitalism in economy and more personal freedom, of course.

 

[kokonut]

Never under-estimate the power of capitalism.

 

[Foxrac]

Never under-estimate the power of capitalism.

then you really have no knowledge since don't compare the personal freedom and capitalism so all of your post is just pathetic.

 

[Alex]

Again, let's keep it civil in here. I do not want to have to close this thread and send out warnings.

Thanks.

 

[Foxrac]

Interesting story.
China: Capitalism Doesn't Require Democracy

I know about China wouldn't change in government in anytime due stability and strengthen.

I'm personally want communist China government to give all part of mainland China to ROC (Republic of China) and it would turns into pure democracy with personal freedom that Taiwanese has enjoyed for years.

 

[Jiro]

Here are the "hard facts" (as you put it, Jiro) about NGOs and how environmental activism has grown and continues to grow, adapt, and re-structure themselves to become more efficient as a result. Growing environmental awareness is happening in China. That is undeniable.


A Report on the Development of Environmental NGOs in China — International Society for Agricultural Meteorology

oh wow! great source!!! from your link -

Business sectors are also a part of the recognition. Many international companies as well as large domestic companies have established funds or competitions for Chinese youths who are willing to take "green" initiatives. Google (China) launched a program in 2007 to encourage youths to start new organizations or projects and this program has been very popular among youth in China.

as I figured.... Chinese government is finally seeing $$$$ opportunity in green investment. GREEEEEEEEN!

In the past 15 years, the number of environmental NGOs in China has evolved in quantity (from zero to more than 3,000) and in quality, yet compared to the heavy environment responsibility China is about to take, this growth is still not enough. In this report, I suggest the following to help solve these problems:
International Learning: Many Chinese environmental NGOs are small with around 100 membership, and thus has not gained much professional experiences. Chinese environmental NGO leaders should learn more from their counterparts in other places of the world. More foreign help is needed in China to educate and train the young movement with professional skills in project management, fundraising skills, grant writing and organizational management.

ah.... now I got some idea how many members there are in total from 2,000+ NGO. No wonder the Chinese government didn't care if the # of NGO is growing cuz they pose no threat. They mainly arrest the leaders. Sad....

Government Change: Environmental NGOs cannot fully grow under the current legal system, so changes are needed. Academics, businesses and NGOs should all work together to push the government to make in the NGO regulation and registration system.

Admittedly, the Chinese Central Government will still be the key player in this fight in China, but without NGOs, I can hardly imagine that the government can solve the problems alone. It is time for the Chinese government to see the need for such changes in order to recognize and cooperate with NGOs and it is time for China's environmental NGOs to work even harder. China's environmental NGOs need to be ready to take leadership positions in the coming era of change for the global environment.

hence.... my posts to show you that you have an unrealistic optimism about them. Again - I've never said nothing's happening in China. Again - I merely showed you the actual reality of progress in China. And that's why I brought up "5,000 years of Chinese history" because the pattern remains the same. It's just Chinese way. What you think how they continue to remain the way it was? They "grow, adapt, and re-structure themselves" but their core being continue to be the same.

for proving me right... for 4th time.

 

[somedeafdudefromPNW]

Interesting story.
China: Capitalism Doesn't Require Democracy

I know about China wouldn't change in government in anytime due stability and strengthen.

I'm personally want communist China government to give all part of mainland China to ROC (Republic of China) and it would turns into pure democracy with personal freedom that Taiwanese has enjoyed for years.

Weird article.

Wouldn't capitalism + authoritarian government = fascism?

China is still communist in that majority, except for the elites and Hong Kong, are told what to buy and what to use. Literally, you can still find accounts where government officials still control what commonfolks have in their homes.

However, I disagree that democracy need capitalism. Democratic communalism can still work, but such models have shown best results with 100-200 families or LESS.

 

[kokonut]

oh wow! great source!!! from your link -
as I figured.... Chinese government is finally seeing $$$$ opportunity in green investment. GREEEEEEEEN!

ah.... now I got some idea how many members there are in total from 2,000+ NGO. No wonder the Chinese government didn't care if the # of NGO is growing cuz they pose no threat. They mainly arrest the leaders. Sad....

hence.... my posts to show you that you have an unrealistic optimism about them. Again - I've never said nothing's happening in China. Again - I merely showed you the actual reality of progress in China. And that's why I brought up "5,000 years of Chinese history" because the pattern remains the same. It's just Chinese way. What you think how they continue to remain the way it was? They "grow, adapt, and re-structure themselves" but their core being continue to be the same.

for proving me right... for 4th time.

Hardly. What you don't realize is that once they taste a certain amount of autonomy given to them does the envelope get pushed even further. Same idea with capitalism. As soon as they taste better living standards, and more goods and services to get their hands on will they want more. People are still finding a way to get around China's censors on the computer, internet, mobile phones and so on. I've stated again and again (much to your ignoring this repeatedly) that more and more Chinese citizens continue to defy the Chinese govt when it comes to freedom, speech, activism, protest, better standard of living, better environment and so on. You've not proved anything with a non-sequitur comment about China being 5,000 years old as having do with this, not to mention a red herring attempt. This is a newly developing and evolving social construct that's happening over the last decade or so. Would have even dared or thought 15 years ago you'd see Chinese citizens protesting against govt policies to have cleaner water, air, and land? Yet this is happening. And you ignore that. My links clearly show that. And so, no, the pattern isn't the same. Neither is their "core" as you put it (whatever the heck that means).

 

[Jiro]

Hardly. What you don't realize is that once they taste a certain amount of autonomy given to them does the envelope get pushed even further. Same idea with capitalism. As soon as they taste better living standards, and more goods and services to get their hands on will they want more. People are still finding a way to get around China's censors on the computer, internet, mobile phones and so on. I've stated again and again (much to your ignoring this repeatedly) that more and more Chinese citizens continue to defy the Chinese govt when it comes to freedom, speech, activism, protest, better standard of living, better environment and so on. You've not proved anything with a non-sequitur comment about China being 5,000 years old as having do with this, not to mention a red herring attempt. This is a newly developing and evolving social construct that's happening over the last decade or so. Would have even dared or thought 15 years ago you'd see Chinese citizens protesting against govt policies to have cleaner water, air, and land? Yet this is happening. And you ignore that. My links clearly show that. And so, no, the pattern isn't the same. Neither is their "core" as you put it (whatever the heck that means).

of course you don't understand. Like I said - go to your local library and read up on its history. You'll get it.