India, China won't sign Copenhagen Accord

Jiro said:
2000 BC to...... 2010.....

count it. :ty: for proving me again. third time.
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4000 does not equal 5000 years of Chinese history.

2000 BC to 2000 AD = 4000 years.

You don't know your history timeline, no?
 
kokonut said:
4000 does not equal 5000 years of Chinese history.

2000 BC to 2000 AD = 4000 years.

You don't know your history timeline, no?
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um.... it's off by 500-1000 years. You should know that in BC era, it's not an exact science.

btw - it's 2010 now, not 2000. Hoping you're still in GWB Era, eh? :lol:
 
posts from hell said:
Three Sovereigns and Five Emperors - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Pretty obvious there was a chinese settlement before a dynasty formed. Doesn't mean it is mythological. People had to have time to be able to form a civilization.. It does not happen overnight. So, I would believe there is MORE to it than just the 5000 years Jiro is claiming.
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Written history. Before written, it would be considered as prehistory.

So... 4,000-5,000 years worth of written history.
 
posts from hell said:
Three Sovereigns and Five Emperors - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Pretty obvious there was a chinese settlement before a dynasty formed. Doesn't mean it is mythological. People had to have time to be able to form a civilization.. It does not happen overnight. So, I would believe there is MORE to it than just the 5000 years Jiro is claiming.
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well technically - yes the Chinese history is over 5,000 years old but since this thread is about environment.... I limited the range of Chinese history to that. Hence... "5,000 years of Chinese History" because those were the time of dynasties - an organized civilization undergoing thru many changes on many levels.

so kokonut - visit your local library and pick out the books about what dynasties have done to environment. well I hope the range of subjects at your local library is culturally-diverse :)
 
posts from hell said:
Three Sovereigns and Five Emperors - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Pretty obvious there was a chinese settlement before a dynasty formed. Doesn't mean it is mythological. People had to have time to be able to form a civilization.. It does not happen overnight. So, I would believe there is MORE to it than just the 5000 years Jiro is claiming.
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Attributable to China as a country in her history it'd be the 4000 years worth.

They wouldn't be "Chinese" if China didn't exist.

Sure you have pre-settlement periods that certainly have it's share of mixed races.
 
Jiro said:
so kokonut - visit your local library and pick out the books about what dynasties have done to environment. well I hope the range of subjects at your local library is culturally-diverse :)
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I made clear that environmental activism is early in China's history and that they are at a similar stage to that of U.S. early form of environmental activism in the 60s and 70s.
 
kokonut said:
I made clear that environmental activism is early in China's history and that they are at a similar stage to that of U.S. early form of environmental activism in the 60s and 70s.
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sigh..... *pat on your head*

you're trying too hard, you know?
 
Jiro said:
sigh..... *pat on your head*

you're trying too hard, you know?
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Because you seem not to understand that environmental activism in China is growing. But you threw out this 5,000 year China history schtick instead.
 
kokonut said:
Because you seem not to understand that environmental activism in China is growing. But you threw out this 5,000 year China history schtick instead.
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have I ever denied that environmental activism is growing?
 
How do I know China wrecked the Copenhagen deal? I was in the room
Copenhagen was a disaster. That much is agreed. But the truth about what actually happened is in danger of being lost amid the spin and inevitable mutual recriminations. The truth is this: China wrecked the talks, intentionally humiliated Barack Obama, and insisted on an awful "deal" so western leaders would walk away carrying the blame. How do I know this? Because I was in the room and saw it happen.

China's strategy was simple: block the open negotiations for two weeks, and then ensure that the closed-door deal made it look as if the west had failed the world's poor once again. And sure enough, the aid agencies, civil society movements and environmental groups all took the bait. The failure was "the inevitable result of rich countries refusing adequately and fairly to shoulder their overwhelming responsibility", said Christian Aid. "Rich countries have bullied developing nations," fumed Friends of the Earth International.

All very predictable, but the complete opposite of the truth. Even George Monbiot, writing in yesterday's Guardian, made the mistake of singly blaming Obama. But I saw Obama fighting desperately to salvage a deal, and the Chinese delegate saying "no", over and over again. Monbiot even approvingly quoted the Sudanese delegate Lumumba Di-Aping, who denounced the Copenhagen accord as "a suicide pact, an incineration pact, in order to maintain the economic dominance of a few countries".

Sudan behaves at the talks as a puppet of China; one of a number of countries that relieves the Chinese delegation of having to fight its battles in open sessions. It was a perfect stitch-up. China gutted the deal behind the scenes, and then left its proxies to savage it in public.

Here's what actually went on late last Friday night, as heads of state from two dozen countries met behind closed doors. Obama was at the table for several hours, sitting between Gordon Brown and the Ethiopian prime minister, Meles Zenawi. The Danish prime minister chaired, and on his right sat Ban Ki-moon, secretary-general of the UN. Probably only about 50 or 60 people, including the heads of state, were in the room. I was attached to one of the delegations, whose head of state was also present for most of the time.

What I saw was profoundly shocking. The Chinese premier, Wen Jinbao, did not deign to attend the meetings personally, instead sending a second-tier official in the country's foreign ministry to sit opposite Obama himself. The diplomatic snub was obvious and brutal, as was the practical implication: several times during the session, the world's most powerful heads of state were forced to wait around as the Chinese delegate went off to make telephone calls to his "superiors".
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and more to read in that link.....
 
SPIEGEL Interview with China's Deputy Minister of the Environment
SPIEGEL: China lacks a grassroots, environmental movement. So far, the citizens have very little opportunity to stand up against questionable projects. Courts sometimes don't even accept the suits that the people are filing, and voicing opposition is not allowed.

Pan: Political co-determination should be part of any socialist democracy. I want more discussions with the people affected. However, I am not one to put on a show just to look democratic to the outside. We need a law that enables and guarantees public participation, especially when it comes to environmental projects. If it's safe politically to get involved and help the environment, then all sides will benefit. We must try to convince the central leadership of that.
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Like I said - I've never denied that environmental activism is growing. I'm merely show you the great difficulty that environmental activists are having. Look at why Chinese government continued to neglect its surrounding environment despite of international outcry. Simple - look at its 5,000 years of history. The behavior is same. The aggressive growth is same. The abuse is same.

after all..... 5,000 years later... now China is one of world superpower, #1 most populated nation, and we're at their mercy.

The comical thing is that..... they do have tons of wind and water power stations...... at the cost of ecosystem.
 
Jiro said:
sigh..... *pat on your head*

you're trying too hard, you know?
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Yup, I'm start not paying attention to him and he's just bored.

He is just want impress on everything that consider as precious right wing.
 
Jiro said:
SPIEGEL Interview with China's Deputy Minister of the Environment

Like I said - I've never denied that environmental activism is growing. I'm merely show you the great difficulty that environmental activists are having. Look at why Chinese government continued to neglect its surrounding environment despite of international outcry. Simple - look at its 5,000 years of history. The behavior is same. The aggressive growth is same. The abuse is same.

after all..... 5,000 years later... now China is one of world superpower, #1 most populated nation, and we're at their mercy.

The comical thing is that..... they do have tons of wind and water power stations...... at the cost of ecosystem.
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Um, based on your own wordings you pretty much mocked at the idea of environmental activism isn't growing and taking place in China because they all are getting arrested, jailed, tortured, or executed (see here - http://www.alldeaf.com/current-even...ont-sign-copenhagen-accord-4.html#post1516643). Not so. Even went so far to say that only those with "$$$$" (see http://www.alldeaf.com/current-even...ont-sign-copenhagen-accord-4.html#post1516563 -"China is a very very large country and you're talking about like 1% of China who is very concerned about their surrounding environment.... because they're $$$$$ and they can complain.") can afford to complain when my links showed just the opposite where both young and old, poor and the well to do are getting involved with environmental activism in China. I posted a link in post #96 (http://www.alldeaf.com/current-even...ont-sign-copenhagen-accord-4.html#post1516596) that describes the young environmental activism movements that is in fact growing.

Sorry, Jiro. Not buying what you've just done. I made it quite clear from the beginning that A) environmental activism *is* happening in China, B) it is young and growing, C) people young and old, poor and the well-to-do are getting more involved. You essentially mocked that idea of such activism is happening at such a large scale.

If you actually bothered to read the links I provided, one discussed the growth of environmental activism in 1994 which had none compared to 2005 as over 2,000 NGOs.
Before 1994, China had no environmental non-governmental organizations (NGOs). As of 2005, the number exploded to approximately 2,000 NGOs that were officially registered.
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Here's an example:

In May of 2007, students and professors at Xiamen University sent out a million text messages urging citizens to protest the planned construction of a $1.4 billion petrochemical plant nearby. On June 1st, 2007, between 7,000 and 20,000 people marched through the city, despite threats of expulsion from school or from the CCP. The event was even videotaped and uploaded onto YouTube, which prompted a response by city authorities who launched their own campaign to discredit the protesters and the video. Nonetheless, this public demonstration is evidence that the Chinese people are starting to take action and are no longer waiting for the government to respond to the environmental issues.
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Understand now ?
 
Foxrac said:
Yup, I'm start not paying attention to him and he's just bored.

He is just want impress on everything that consider as precious right wing.
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Foxrac, be sure to understand that this has nothing to do with "right wing" discussion. This is about the fact that environmental activism is taking place in China, of which you have tried to discredit and mock such an idea.

It's happening.
 
kokonut said:
Um, based on your own wordings you pretty much mocked at the idea of environmental activism isn't growing and taking place in China because they all are getting arrested, jailed, tortured, or executed (see here - http://www.alldeaf.com/current-even...ont-sign-copenhagen-accord-4.html#post1516643). Not so. Even went so far to say that only those with "$$$$" (see http://www.alldeaf.com/current-even...ont-sign-copenhagen-accord-4.html#post1516563 -"China is a very very large country and you're talking about like 1% of China who is very concerned about their surrounding environment.... because they're $$$$$ and they can complain.") can afford to complain when my links showed just the opposite where both young and old, poor and the well to do are getting involved with environmental activism in China. I posted a link in post #96 (http://www.alldeaf.com/current-even...ont-sign-copenhagen-accord-4.html#post1516596) that describes the young environmental activism movements that is in fact growing.

Sorry, Jiro. Not buying what you've just done. I made it quite clear from the beginning that A) environmental activism *is* happening in China, B) it is young and growing, C) people young and old, poor and the well-to-do are getting more involved. You essentially mocked that idea of such activism is happening at such a large scale.

If you actually bothered to read the links I provided, one discussed the growth of environmental activism in 1994 which had none compared to 2005 as over 2,000 NGOs.

Here's an example:

Understand now ?
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mocked? lol :lol:

Do you not see several posters before me telling you same thing as I am? we are aware of it but you seem to be trivializing the government's action on them.

and 2,000 NGO.... and how many members?

and from your post
On June 1st, 2007, between 7,000 and 20,000 people marched through the city, despite threats of expulsion from school or from the CCP. The event was even videotaped and uploaded onto YouTube, which prompted a response by city authorities who launched their own campaign to discredit the protesters and the video. Nonetheless, this public demonstration is evidence that the Chinese people are starting to take action and are no longer waiting for the government to respond to the environmental issues.
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7,000-20,000...... *golf clap*

and that action by city authority just backed me up. :)

so do you understand now? my guess is no but I think we pretty much exhausted our cases here so there's really no point in going around the bush, right?
 
Jiro said:
mocked? lol :lol:

Do you not see several posters before me telling you same thing as I am? we are aware of it but you seem to be trivializing the government's action on them.

and 2,000 NGO.... and how many members?

and from your post


7,000-20,000...... *golf clap*

and that action by city authority just backed me up. :)

so do you understand now? my guess is no but I think we pretty much exhausted our cases here so there's really no point in going around the bush, right?
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Um, noticed that I bolded this part I outlined previously?

this public demonstration is evidence that the Chinese people are starting to take action and are no longer waiting the government to respond to the environmental issues.
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I repeatedly said that environmental activists were willing to take actions by protesting even if it meant risking jailing or worse.

Secondly, the number of people participating isn't small nor are they obscure.

Thirdly, environmental activism is growing. They want clean air, water and land just as we do.

I made it clear time and time again. They are essentially in the same stage as we were during the 70s as they continue to organize and become more coherent in their goals and strategies.

So, do you agree that environmental activism by locals in China is growing?
 
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