Should ASL be Banned from Deaf Ed programs?

[rockdrummer]

As a parent of a hard of hearing child, an ex-boyfriend of a deaf woman, and prior to both, a college student who took ASL in college as my foreign language, I don't feel ASL should be banned.

In school I felt the visual layout of conversation made for a clear picture of whatever people needed to convey. If we are speaking of education, some people get grammar, some don't (hearing or not). My ex has limited vocabulary and understanding of English (or life, but that is a seperate matter). Is that limiting? Yes, she often needs things explained, but how many hearing people speaking proper English are signing anyway. Is it detrimental, no. She does better amongst her friends and they understand each others conversations. I do press my daughter to speak properly, but she is HOH, not deaf and therefore, will engage with spoken conversation daily.

I hope I don't sound biased. I don't believe I am. I believe you work with what you have and do the best you can. (then, you become an adult and get set in your ways and lazy, ha-ha)

First nomorepoor. I like that... did you win the lottery?? .....Naw that's not bias. Why would anyone want to remove a language from school. Especially one that is beneficial.

 

[Angel]

If you want to talk about honesty (and it's okay if I get banned here, I'm that pissed off here about this subject ..,) I believe you're saying you could not tell the difference between those words ("milk" and "beer") because everyone here knows you have sided with Jillio on everything in this forum. It's common knowledge, really ...

In all reality, if you are confronted with lipreading on a one-on-one situation, you will likely (as long as you have good lipreading skills, and you probably do, being raised orally,) understand many speech distinctions. That was the point I and many others here were trying to make, that NO hearing person should be telling us deaf people what we can lipread and what we cannot.

!!

 

[Daredevel7]

If you want to talk about honesty (and it's okay if I get banned here, I'm that pissed off here about this subject ..,) I believe you're saying you could not tell the difference between those words ("milk" and "beer") because everyone here knows you have sided with Jillio on everything in this forum. It's common knowledge, really ...

In all reality, if you are confronted with lipreading on a one-on-one situation, you will likely (as long as you have good lipreading skills, and you probably do, being raised orally,) understand many speech distinctions. That was the point I and many others here were trying to make, that NO hearing person should be telling us deaf people what we can lipread and what we cannot.

It's not so much that a hearing person telling us that bothers me. After all, I taught my hearing friend how to lipread, and we can carry on a conversation in a train without any voice. (We get hilarious looks!) What bothers me is all the psychobabble backed up with "statistics" being spurted out. That's like me trying on a bra and telling the salesgirl "I'm sorry I tried it on and it didn't fit well" and she started spurting out "Research shows that 85.6% of the population have been satisfied on a level of 7 and higher on a scale of 10 with that specific model."

 

[Bottesini]

It's not so much that a hearing person telling us that bothers me. After all, I taught my hearing friend how to lipread, and we can carry on a conversation in a train without any voice. (We get hilarious looks!) What bothers me is all the psychobabble backed up with "statistics" being spurted out. That's like me trying on a bra and telling the salesgirl "I'm sorry I tried it on and it didn't fit well" and she started spurting out "Research shows that 85.6% of the population have been satisfied on a level of 7 and higher on a scale of 10 with that specific model."

 

[Bottesini]

If you want to talk about honesty (and it's okay if I get banned here, I'm that pissed off here about this subject ..,) I believe you're saying you could not tell the difference between those words ("milk" and "beer") because everyone here knows you have sided with Jillio on everything in this forum. It's common knowledge, really ...

In all reality, if you are confronted with lipreading on a one-on-one situation, you will likely (as long as you have good lipreading skills, and you probably do, being raised orally,) understand many speech distinctions. That was the point I and many others here were trying to make, that NO hearing person should be telling us deaf people what we can lipread and what we cannot.

Don't worry I bet you won't be banned. Statistics show 89.73 percent of ADers enjoy your posts!

 

[sirena rossa]

It's not so much that a hearing person telling us that bothers me. After all, I taught my hearing friend how to lipread, and we can carry on a conversation in a train without any voice. (We get hilarious looks!) What bothers me is all the psychobabble backed up with "statistics" being spurted out. That's like me trying on a bra and telling the salesgirl "I'm sorry I tried it on and it didn't fit well" and she started spurting out "Research shows that 85.6% of the population have been satisfied on a level of 7 and higher on a scale of 10 with that specific model."

a bra. that's hilarious. but yeah, in an argument/debate, if someone is only citing statistics, its because that is all s/he knows and is armed with.

 

[shel90]

If you want to talk about honesty (and it's okay if I get banned here, I'm that pissed off here about this subject ..,) I believe you're saying you could not tell the difference between those words ("milk" and "beer") because everyone here knows you have sided with Jillio on everything in this forum. It's common knowledge, really ...

In all reality, if you are confronted with lipreading on a one-on-one situation, you will likely (as long as you have good lipreading skills, and you probably do, being raised orally,) understand many speech distinctions. That was the point I and many others here were trying to make, that NO hearing person should be telling us deaf people what we can lipread and what we cannot.

That was uneccessary. If you want to debate, keep personal attacks out pls. Thank you.

Maybe u are right for yourself but I am speaking for myself. I am not sure if I would understand every hearing person who says milk and beer especially if I wasnt prepared beforehand. It probably would even be more difficult with those hearing people with strong accents. My experience with them has shown that I struggle to lipread them even on the obvious words.

I am being honest here and it has nothing to do with Jillo. If you have a problem with me , feel free to PM me.

 

[AlleyCat]

That was uneccessary. If you want to debate, keep personal attacks out pls. Thank you.

Maybe u are right for yourself but I am speaking for myself. I am not sure if I would understand every hearing person who says milk and beer especially if I wasnt prepared beforehand. It probably would even be more difficult with those hearing people with strong accents. My experience with them has shown that I struggle to lipread them even on the obvious words.

I am being honest here and it has nothing to do with Jillo. If you have a problem with me , feel free to PM me.

Shel, you are right about the bolded comment, and I apologize.

It is fine that you might've not understood those two words. Not everyone can. But there have been plenty of us who have argued that at least some of us can, so my real point was what I said: that no hearing person should be telling us what we can lipread and what we cannot. Daredevel also made a very good point about statistics not representing many individuals.

 

[Angel]

It's not so much that a hearing person telling us that bothers me. After all, I taught my hearing friend how to lipread, and we can carry on a conversation in a train without any voice. (We get hilarious looks!) What bothers me is all the psychobabble backed up with "statistics" being spurted out. That's like me trying on a bra and telling the salesgirl "I'm sorry I tried it on and it didn't fit well" and she started spurting out "Research shows that 85.6% of the population have been satisfied on a level of 7 and higher on a scale of 10 with that specific model."

and brilliant explanation 2.

 

[Angel]

Shel, you are right about the bolded comment, and I apologize.

It is fine that you might've not understood those two words. Not everyone can. But there have been plenty of us who have argued that at least some of us can, so my real point was what I said: that no hearing person should be telling us what we can lipread and what we cannot. Daredevel also made a very good point about statistics not representing many individuals.

I definitely agree, good post Alleycatie. :P

 

[shel90]

No problem Alleycat..

We can throw out the sastistics but remeber we r dealing with children's lives regarding language acquisition and for me, I take that very seriously.

We can talk all we want about bras not fitting everyone, who can distinguish between beer and milk, and etc.

Language development and education for me is something I take very seriously and don't really joke around with it.

Anyone can think all they want about me but the fact is I work with these kids who were deprived of a linguistically-rich environment and it is heartbreaking because they didn't deserve to be placed in environments by their parents or other specialists hoping they would develop speech skills.

 

[Cheri]

It is fine that you might've not understood those two words. Not everyone can. But there have been plenty of us who have argued that at least some of us can, so my real point was what I said: that no hearing person should be telling us what we can lipread and what we cannot. Daredevel also made a very good point about statistics not representing many individuals.

And I also agree with Daredevel as well, and in fact total communication, cued speech, and oral options are still available in the schools, if it was the worst approach for the population of the deaf, then they wouldn't still have those approach available as of today.

 

[jillio]

To be honest, with some hearing people, even on one-on-one situations, I probably couldnt tell the difference between those words...*only if I am not expecting the person to say them*

Thank you! Take away prior knowledge and context, and you remove something that is responsible for the discrimination.

 

[jillio]

a bra. that's hilarious. but yeah, in an argument/debate, if someone is only citing statistics, its because that is all s/he knows and is armed with.

And what is it you are armed with, my dear? I'd like to see evidence of you being armed with anything valid.

 

[jillio]

If you want to talk about honesty (and it's okay if I get banned here, I'm that pissed off here about this subject ..,) I believe you're saying you could not tell the difference between those words ("milk" and "beer") because everyone here knows you have sided with Jillio on everything in this forum. It's common knowledge, really ...

In all reality, if you are confronted with lipreading on a one-on-one situation, you will likely (as long as you have good lipreading skills, and you probably do, being raised orally,) understand many speech distinctions. That was the point I and many others here were trying to make, that NO hearing person should be telling us deaf people what we can lipread and what we cannot.

Many is not all, and there is still room for a great deal of misinformation. 30% is not acceptable in an educational environment. Nor do I feel it is acceptable in any environment.

You remark concerning Shel and I is totally uncalled for. This is not a popularity contest, and the fact that you have attempted to reduce it to such is clear indication that your concern does not lie with the education of deaf children, but of doing whatever you think will gain you the most popularity. I will not sacrifice the well being of deaf students just to make friends. The topic is far too important to reduce it to that self serving level.

 

[jillio]

It's not so much that a hearing person telling us that bothers me. After all, I taught my hearing friend how to lipread, and we can carry on a conversation in a train without any voice. (We get hilarious looks!) What bothers me is all the psychobabble backed up with "statistics" being spurted out. That's like me trying on a bra and telling the salesgirl "I'm sorry I tried it on and it didn't fit well" and she started spurting out "Research shows that 85.6% of the population have been satisfied on a level of 7 and higher on a scale of 10 with that specific model."

More absurdity in an attempt to deflect. Your bra size has virtually nothing to do with the fact that deaf children are being undereducated.

 

[AlleyCat]

And what is it you are armed with, my dear? I'd like to see evidence of you being armed with anything valid.

How about first-hand experience? That's something you do not have, you have to take excerpts from research and second-hand experience in what you saw/experienced through your son. Don't knock us for firmly believing in what we can do, see, and experience because we've been there and done that, our very personal selves. You can't say that for yourself. In these past several pages, many of us deaf people have made excellent and valid points that you simply just cannot refute, statistics or not (and you will try, I know, but you will not succeed.)

 

[jillio]

and brilliant explanation 2.

Brilliant? More like totally unrelated.

 

[jillio]

And I also agree with Daredevel as well, and in fact total communication, cued speech, and oral options are still available in the schools, if it was the worst approach for the population of the deaf, then they wouldn't still have those approach available as of today.

Then tell me, please, why haven't we seen an increase in the literacy rates and overall academic functioning rates of deaf students as a whole under the auspices of these methods. If they are so successful, why are so many functioning at such a reduced level?

 

[jillio]

How about first-hand experience? That's something you do not have, you have to take excerpts from research and second-hand experience in what you saw/experienced through your son. Don't knock us for firmly believing in what we can do, see, and experience because we've been there and done that, our very personal selves. You can't say that for yourself. In these past several pages, many of us deaf people have made excellent and valid points that you simply just cannot refute, statistics or not (and you will try, I know, but you will not succeed.)

First of all, the question was not addressed to you. It was directed at a specific comment in the post to which I replied.

Your first hand experience applies to you only. It cannot be extrapolated to an entire population.

And, evidently, there are many with first hand experience that agree, given the results of this poll.

And, lastly, my position does not come only from research. It comes from direct contact and involvement with deaf people of all ages, and direct involvement and experience with deaf children. You all are the ones that force research to be brought into the topic. And the research supports the observation and direct experience that I have had.