who do you think that really killed Jesus?

[GarnetTigerMom]

But also remember, Jesus has many followers (his disciples). Jesus also knew that Judas would betray him. So Judas betrayed him. Scholars surmise that Judas may have been the only Judean among the twelve disciples of Jesus. This alone could have caused him to feel somewhat superior, as Judeans considered Galileans to be country dwellers or "bumpkins." When Jesus gave him charge of the money box, it may have additionally boosted his ego.


Not even Jesus' triumphal entry into Jerusalem as King of Israel could dissuade him from his course. Judas had convinced himself that Jesus was a false Messiah and that He had to pay for His deception. So Judas betrayed Jesus, who was arrested, tried, convicted, and sentenced to die — just as He had foretold. With the prophecies fulfilled before his eyes, Judas Iscariot saw how He had misunderstood all along:

Then Judas, His betrayer, seeing that He had been condemned, was remorseful and brought back the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders, saying, "I have sinned by betraying innocent blood." And they said, "What is that to us? You see to it!" Then he threw down the pieces of silver in the temple and departed, and went and hanged himself. (Matthew 27:3-5)

It was too late. All the remorse in the world could not undo the damage he had caused—he had condemned the Savior of the world, the King of kings, to a cruel, shameful, painful death by crucifixion.

What terrible destruction we can cause when we proudly act on our own private interpretations of Jesus' teachings or scripture.

 

[Cheri]

But also remember, Jesus has many followers (his disciples). Jesus also knew that Judas would betray him. So Judas betrayed him.

I did not forget I mention him on my first post on this thread, also Peter too, which Jesus knew that Peter will denied Jesus 3 times, and Peter did.

I just cannot imagine how much amount of blood that Jesus lost from this horrible torture, I don't think people would survive this long. Anyone who has seen the Passion of the Christ would understand how brutal this torture was, with his condition from walking with the cross and with some Jews and Roman's servants were repeating torture him by beating him, just pissed me off even more.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

Just quoting you.

You said, not me.

How is that relevant? Whether or not they wanted to stay in their own home country has nothing to do with whether or not they are Jews or Romans.

Yes, they can.

Look at the example of Moses and Joesph who were wealth and decided to leave Egypt for to be with Jews.

Relgious leaders do not want to give up everything what they have under Roman authorities to follow Jesus which Moses and Joseph CAN.

If a black slave living on a plantation in 18th Century America didn't like staying under the control of a white owner could he just go his own way? And if not, and he stayed on the plantation, did that make him white like the owner? Of course not. The black man was living under white man authority but that didn't make him "white".

There're no comparision between Roman history and black slave history. Black people from their own country were being arrested and kipnapped by white people to ship to America. Black people did not choose to live in America but white people choose to want them to live and work for them as slave. This is a difference.

The Jews were living under Roman authority but that didn't make them "Roman".

I never said it.

I only said that Relgious leaders choose to live under Roman's authorities. This is their decision. They CAN leave like Moses and Joseph did.

I quoted your post. Check it out.

You said this, not me. I only said "some of you" in general way. I feel sorry for you that you don't know what general is about.

Do you really believe it was that easy? Do you know your history? Do you know how far the Roman Empire stretched? If the Jews aren't welcomed in any countries should they leave the planet?

Why should I repeat then? *sigh*

So does that make you "German Liebling" or "German's Liebling"?

From those posts, I felt that you still did not get my point. My co-workers and friends saw my point and agree with me. I don't care what you think, your misinterpret post or whatever.

So? When they're stationed in Germany they're still Americans.

Exactly, they are American BECAUSE they work for US caserne and under US agreement contract and live in US apartment... follow US law/rules IN caserne and appartment... They choose to station army in Germany VOLUNTARILY and go back to USA after 2 to 3 years agreement contract. You still not get my point or maybe you don't want to see it. Never mind.

We're not talking about feelings between Cyprus and Turkey.

Where have I say about feelings? Its about their past historical.

Jews were Jewish, and there's no reason to be offended about that. The high priests, pharisees, scribes, and elders were Jews. The governors and soldiers were Romans. That is not blaming.

Yes, some of you blame Jews and some of you blame Roman and some of you blame sin.....
You blame everyone (sin)
I blame Roman authorities
Other blame Jewish Relgious leaders.

like what Turkey and Cyprus did.

It's normal to blame each other... and it's normal to deny their responsiblity..etc.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

Right they (Jewish Religion Leaders) have no authority to make that decision under Roman's laws. But, the Jewish Religion Leaders demand the Roman Leader to crucified Jesus, they would not give up until Roman lets them have it their way.

Then you got my point. I said many times since my first post in your thread and then my thread.

I would say crucified as a death sentence because the people including Jesus died of it.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

Alot may have, but most didn't have a choice but to stay behind.

However for the Jews in Jesus's time, it was their land that was given to them by God, Why would they leave the land that God gave them?

They also didn't have cars and trucks like they did in WW2. Times were different then.

Yes, I awared the difference between their times and our present times.

Did you know the 2 example stories about Moses and Joseph?

Moses and Joseph both were wealthy and decided to leave Egypt for their belief and to follow Jews. Why can't Relgious leaders do the same then?

Not just them but some people gave everything including wealth for their belief and left wealth homes.

The followers went with Jesus to thousand miles... WALK...

 

[Reba]

You said, not me.

I can't believe that you don't even read your own posts. Oh, well, at least all the other ADers can read them.

Yes, they can.

Look at the example of Moses and Joesph who were wealth and decided to leave Egypt for to be with Jews.

Relgious leaders do not want to give up everything what they have under Roman authorities to follow Jesus which Moses and Joseph CAN.

When Moses first left Egypt, he wasn't wealthy. He did NOT escape to the Jews. When he came back to lead his people out of Egypt he was taking all the Jews out of Egypt. He wasn't going someplace to be with Jews. After Moses and his people left Egypt during the Exodus, they had to travel thru the lands of enemies (non-Jews). They didn't leave Egypt to be with the Jews. They were themselves the Jews leaving Egypt, which was not their homeland.

Jerusalem was the home land for the Jews during Roman times. It's the opposite situation for them than what Moses experienced.

Joseph didn't leave Egypt to be with Jews. He brought the Jews (his family) to Egypt to be with him. You have the story backwards.

There're no comparision between Roman history and black slave history. Black people from their own country were being arrested and kipnapped by white people to ship to America. Black people did not choose to live in America but white people choose to want them to live and work for them as slave. This is a difference.

The Jews did not choose to be ruled by the Romans either. The Romans were a conquering army that took control of the government.

...I only said that Relgious leaders choose to live under Roman's authorities. This is their decision. They CAN leave like Moses and Joseph did.

Please read my above response. You had the stories backwards.

You said this, not me. I only said "some of you" in general way. I feel sorry for you that you don't know what general is about.

It's right there in black and white (or "blue" and white, such as the case may be).

Why should I repeat then? *sigh*

Where did you answer my question? I didn't see it? All I ask is one simple sentence.

"If the Jews aren't welcomed in any countries should they leave the planet?"

From those posts, I felt that you still did not get my point. My co-workers and friends saw my point and agree with me. I don't care what you think, your misinterpret post or whatever.

Good for them.

Exactly, they are American BECAUSE they work for US caserne and under US agreement contract and live in US apartment... follow US law/rules IN caserne and appartment... They choose to station army in Germany VOLUNTARILY and go back to USA after 2 to 3 years agreement contract. You still not get my point or maybe you don't want to see it. Never mind.

After WWII, when American and other allied armies occupied and controlled Germany, why didn't all the Germans leave the country?

Did the German people call themselves "American's people"? No, they were still Germans even though the Americans were in control.

Yes, some of you blame Jews and some of you blame Roman and some of you blame sin.....
You blame everyone (sin)
I blame Roman authorities
Other blame Jewish Relgious leaders.

like what Turkey and Cyprus did.

It's normal to blame each other... and it's normal to deny their responsiblity..etc.

Maybe it's normal but it's not right.

 

[Secretblend]

Liebling, I give up on trying to answer your questions anymore because:

1. You refuse to accept our answers and explanations.

2. I am starting to think you are spoiling for a fight and I won't give that to you.

3. You obviously have your own ideas and nothing will ever change it.

I would advice others to do the same.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

Liebling, I give up on trying to answer your questions anymore because:

1. You refuse to accept our answers and explanations.

2. I am starting to think you are spoiling for a fight and I won't give that to you.

3. You obviously have your own ideas and nothing will ever change it.

Each person entitled her/his POV. You can't expect us to follow everything what you say as the same as I do not expect you to agree everything what we or I say here.

It's about good debate which is good education for all of us. If you don't like what you see then leave this thread here like what Alex said in his post. Insult and bash is a different story. I do not see anything here that I insult and bash here but entitled my view when I see different as you.

 

[Gemma]

I find this very ironic because I know Jesus would NOT want anyone to be blaming anyone or discussing politics...ever since Jesus died for OUR sins, millions of people have been murdered in name of being scapegoats for His death. He does not want ANYONE to blame or try to figure out who caused Him to die because Jesus could have prevented any of this but he chose to go in order to save us. This world would be entirely different if Jesus did not die in order to save us.

Why cant we all forget about who or why or what - and just focus on the true meaning behind Jesus's decision to die for all of us? While it is a very sad situation, there is joy in it as well as we were all saved.

 

[Secretblend]

I find this very ironic because I know Jesus would NOT want anyone to be blaming anyone or discussing politics...ever since Jesus died for OUR sins, millions of people have been murdered in name of being scapegoats for His death. He does not want ANYONE to blame or try to figure out who caused Him to die because Jesus could have prevented any of this but he chose to go in order to save us. This world would be entirely different if Jesus did not die in order to save us.

Why cant we all forget about who or why or what - and just focus on the true meaning behind Jesus's decision to die for all of us? While it is a very sad situation, there is joy in it as well as we were all saved.

Amen!

 

[GarnetTigerMom]

I can't believe that you don't even read your own posts. Oh, well, at least all the other ADers can read them.


When Moses first left Egypt, he wasn't wealthy. He did NOT escape to the Jews. When he came back to lead his people out of Egypt he was taking all the Jews out of Egypt. He wasn't going someplace to be with Jews. After Moses and his people left Egypt during the Exodus, they had to travel thru the lands of enemies (non-Jews). They didn't leave Egypt to be with the Jews. They were themselves the Jews leaving Egypt, which was not their homeland.

Jerusalem was the home land for the Jews during Roman times. It's the opposite situation for them than what Moses experienced.

Joseph didn't leave Egypt to be with Jews. He brought the Jews (his family) to Egypt to be with him. You have the story backwards.



The Jews did not choose to be ruled by the Romans either. The Romans were a conquering army that took control of the government.



Please read my above response. You had the stories backwards.



It's right there in black and white (or "blue" and white, such as the case may be).



Where did you answer my question? I didn't see it? All I ask is one simple sentence.

"If the Jews aren't welcomed in any countries should they leave the planet?"



Good for them.



After WWII, when American and other allied armies occupied and controlled Germany, why didn't all the Germans leave the country?

Did the German people call themselves "American's people"? No, they were still Germans even though the Americans were in control.



Maybe it's normal but it's not right.

Wait second, isn't this how the story goes when Moses was born he was adopted by the Pharaoh's daughter. Before Moses was born, the Israelites were living in slavery in Egypt. The Pharaoh was afraid of the numbers and might of the growing Israelites during this time, so he had them put under extreme bondage and slavery from rebelling against him. It got so bad at one time, that the Pharaoh had put out an order to have all of the male children killed that were being born by the Israelites.

After 3 months, his mother then placed him in an ark made out of bulrushes and then placed him down by the reeds along the river banks hoping someone else would find him and raise him up safely. It just so happened that the daughter of the Pharaoh was the one to find him down by the river as she was getting ready to wash herself in the river.

Once she found him, she found out who the mother was and then asked the mother to nurse him during the nursing stage. Once the nursing stage was over, the mother then gave the child back to the Pharaoh’s daughter in order that she raise him up as one of her own so the Pharaoh would not find out who he was and have him killed. Moses was thus raised up in the Pharaoh’s house.

When Moses became full grown, he became very distressed at seeing his own people suffer under the hands of the Egyptians. During one of these times, he saw an Egyptian beating one of his fellow Hebrew men. Moses became so furious at seeing this injustice, that he killed the Egyptian who had been beating his fellow brother.

After killing this Egyptian man, the Pharaoh then finds out about it and seeks to have Moses killed. At this point, Moses flees into the desert into a place called Midian. He then lives in the desert for 40 years until God calls him out to deliver His people from their slavery and bondage to the Egyptians.

 

[Cheri]

I find this very ironic because I know Jesus would NOT want anyone to be blaming anyone or discussing politics...ever since Jesus died for OUR sins, millions of people have been murdered in name of being scapegoats for His death. He does not want ANYONE to blame or try to figure out who caused Him to die because Jesus could have prevented any of this but he chose to go in order to save us. This world would be entirely different if Jesus did not die in order to save us.

Why cant we all forget about who or why or what - and just focus on the true meaning behind Jesus's decision to die for all of us? While it is a very sad situation, there is joy in it as well as we were all saved.

We are not placing the blame on anyone, It may look like it, but we are just discussing the topic at hand. Not everyone reads the bible you know, I think it's important that they understand who Jesus was and what He is to all of us.

 

[Reba]

Wait second, isn't this how the story goes when Moses was born he was adopted by the Pharaoh's daughter. Before Moses was born, the Israelites were living in slavery in Egypt. The Pharaoh was afraid of the numbers and might of the growing Israelites during this time, so he had them put under extreme bondage and slavery from rebelling against him. It got so bad at one time, that the Pharaoh had put out an order to have all of the male children killed that were being born by the Israelites.

After 3 months, his mother then placed him in an ark made out of bulrushes and then placed him down by the reeds along the river banks hoping someone else would find him and raise him up safely. It just so happened that the daughter of the Pharaoh was the one to find him down by the river as she was getting ready to wash herself in the river.

Once she found him, she found out who the mother was and then asked the mother to nurse him during the nursing stage. Once the nursing stage was over, the mother then gave the child back to the Pharaoh’s daughter in order that she raise him up as one of her own so the Pharaoh would not find out who he was and have him killed. Moses was thus raised up in the Pharaoh’s house.

When Moses became full grown, he became very distressed at seeing his own people suffer under the hands of the Egyptians. During one of these times, he saw an Egyptian beating one of his fellow Hebrew men. Moses became so furious at seeing this injustice, that he killed the Egyptian who had been beating his fellow brother.

After killing this Egyptian man, the Pharaoh then finds out about it and seeks to have Moses killed. At this point, Moses flees into the desert into a place called Midian. He then lives in the desert for 40 years until God calls him out to deliver His people from their slavery and bondage to the Egyptians.

Yes, that's the basic story.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

We are not placing the blame on anyone, It may look like it, but we are just discussing the topic at hand. Not everyone reads the bible you know, I think it's important that they understand who Jesus was and what He is to all of us.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

I can't believe that you don't even read your own posts. Oh, well, at least all the other ADers can read them.

I can't beleive that you choose my posts and continue accuse me for that when I told you many times that I stated in general without accuse you and anyone. Yes, ADers read and have no problem with it because they know the difference. ADers also use those word the same "some of you", too. I know they talk general. I know the difference between general and accusation. I know you have an adult daughter when I debated with you... I often use the example in general way: What you do if your child.... or whatever then you will know that I spoke general because you know that I know you have an adult daughter. Example: I debated with Cloggy in other thread. Cloggy asked me in manner way without accusation word. "Do you mean it generally"? I replied: Yes I mean it generally. He thanked me for my answer and respect me and debated with me but you?

When Moses first left Egypt, he wasn't wealthy. He did NOT escape to the Jews. When he came back to lead his people out of Egypt he was taking all the Jews out of Egypt. He wasn't going someplace to be with Jews. After Moses and his people left Egypt during the Exodus, they had to travel thru the lands of enemies (non-Jews). They didn't leave Egypt to be with the Jews. They were themselves the Jews leaving Egypt, which was not their homeland.

Jerusalem was the home land for the Jews during Roman times. It's the opposite situation for them than what Moses experienced.

Joseph didn't leave Egypt to be with Jews. He brought the Jews (his family) to Egypt to be with him. You have the story backwards.

The Jews did not choose to be ruled by the Romans either. The Romans were a conquering army that took control of the government.

Please read my above response. You had the stories backwards.

It's right there in black and white (or "blue" and white, such as the case may be).

Where did you answer my question? I didn't see it? All I ask is one simple sentence.

"If the Jews aren't welcomed in any countries should they leave the planet?"

Good for them.

for quote Reba's post, GarnetTigerMom.

Reba, yes Moses was adopted by the Pharaoh's daughter. He was raised in wealthy family and have everything what he wants in Egypt. He decided in his heart for where he originally come from.

Yes, Joseph brought his brothers & their families, father to live in Egypt but he do everything for them instead of seek revenage against them or abandon them, don't he? He & his family would follow them if they decided to leave Egypt. Joseph followed where his heart belongs to. He died and had his bones out of Egypt to where his heart belongs and where he come from.

Which Relgious leaders doesn't.

After WWII, when American and other allied armies occupied and controlled Germany, why didn't all the Germans leave the country?

Did the German people call themselves "American's people"? No, they were still Germans even though the Americans were in control.

You still not get my point. I don't want to repeat my post many times to make ADers feel sleepy.

Maybe it's normal but it's not right.

Well, the people often blames Satan or God for that... Is it normal or not?

 

[Reba]

Reba, yes Moses was adopted by the Pharaoh's daughter. He was raised in wealthy family and have everything what he wants in Egypt. He decided in his heart for where he originally come from.

So what does that have to do with the Jews in Rome?

Yes, Joseph brought his brothers & their families, father to live in Egypt but he do everything for them instead of seek revenage against them or abandon them, don't he?

Yes, but what does that have to do with the Jews in Rome?

Joseph followed where his heart belongs to. He died and had his bones out of Egypt to where his heart belongs and where he come from.

Which Relgious leaders doesn't.

I don't get the connection. Joseph and the Jews in Rome were two totally different circumstances.

Well, the people often blames Satan or God for that... Is it normal or not?

Just because something is "normal" doesn't mean it's right.

 

[Reba]

...Of course everyone know relgious leaders were Jewish and lived under Roman's authorities. If they hate being rule by Roman authorities then leave and follow Jesus everywhere then or go their own way... Why can't they then?

What if the Jewish leaders wanted to leave their homes to live in another country but no other country accepted them? Where do they go?

If they hate being ruled by Roman authorities, then when where can they go?

 

[Reba]

After the Romans occupied and controlled Jerusalem, why didn't all the Jews leave the country?


After WWII, when American and other allied armies occupied and controlled Germany, why didn't all the Germans leave the country?

 

[Liebling:-)))]

Reba, I am tooooo tired to repeat and repeat you with my posts dozen of times... I do not want to make ADers feel sleepy so I would like to suggest you to go back and re-read our debated posts to see yourself why I use Moses and Joseph as an example to compare with Relgious leaders.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

After the Romans occupied and controlled Jerusalem, why didn't all the Jews leave the country?


After WWII, when American and other allied armies occupied and controlled Germany, why didn't all the Germans leave the country?

The comparision you made is a fallacious.

Americans stationed in Germany and like Germany. Why should Germans leave the country when Germans like Americans? It does the same with Americans - They like Germans why they want to station in Germany and want to extend their agreement contract and upset when they have to leave Germany then? I am sorry that you see it differently. Therefore, Americans have to obey German law when they are outside of US Army casernes. If you still can´t get it then I can´t help you.