Trilingualism

rockdrummer said:
It is a problem when you are learning with a child that is also learning and each are learning from different regional signs.
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Wouldn't really be any different than teaching a child about synonyms. It is not beyond the understanding of a young child to recognize that other people may have a different word for things. Diaper vs. nappy, French fries vs. chips, soccer vs. football, water fountain vs. bubbler...

for example: submarine, hoagie, hero, grinder, po'boy... all regionally used words to describe the same thing - a big sandwich.

The concept fits very well into regional sign language.
 
rockdrummer said:
Another confusing factor with ASL is that there are different signs for the same word in the same context depending on your "region" within the United States. It seems to me that it would be beneficial to the language for it to evolve a bit more (I know I am gonna take shit for that one) to where it's more standardized and structured as other languages are.

I can say this with confidence as a learner of ASL I have been very frustrated and confused because of this regional issue. Much of what I have been learning online doesn't apply to me in my region becuse many of the signs are different. I know some will come back and compare regional ASL to different accents in English. To me there is no comparison. If a person says car with an accent they are still saying car and they are still spelling it the same way and using it in the same context.
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The accent analogy fails. A closer equivalent to ASL would be signing the same sign with one hand shape vs. another hand shape. An example: some people sign "country" with a flat hand and some people sign it with a Y hand shape. And some people, when they sign it with a Y hand shape mean "county."

Here's a better spoken language analogy to regional ASL signs. In the UK, people talk about their "flat" and "flatmate" whereas in the US speakers talk about their "apartment" and "roommate." To be "pissed" in the UK means to be "drunk" but to be "pissed" in the U.S. means "to be annoyed/ticked off." In both cases, either a different word is used for the same concept in the same context or the same word is used in a different context to mean something different.

Using different signs isn't like speaking with a different accent. It's like using different words for the same thing, but that happens in spoken languages too.
 
I have the feeling that this piece of mail will reach you in aperfect state of mind and in a better healthy codition. While searching through the alldeaf i finish my school in canada shool of deaf, I believe and also have the feeling that in todays world, neither race, age,nationality nor religion will any longer posse a barrier to male/female relationships. Although, we do not know each other well but I will really like to know more about you and if possible go into a relationship, if that is better for you. I am marie, I am student leaving in Canada Toronto.. I live alone, I'm self employed and I'm looking for a mate, someone that will care for me and I will love and care in return. I am 29 yrs old, I am fair and honest woman and always will be true to my man. So...tell me more about yourself, what food do you like and how may I entice you. I will also like to see your face sometime, your shinning beauty...I'm sure it's like the sun. I really know how to treat man and how to love man, pls reply as soon as possible. Let's be like honeybees and make something sweet. Please reply to my email (mariedoral@yahoo.com). If you have a yahoo messenger ID you can add me so can get to chat also...my ID is mariedoral. . i will be waiting to read from you soon.

Stay blessed

Marie.
 
mariedoral said:
i have the feeling that this piece of mail will reach you in aperfect state of mind and in a better healthy codition. While searching through the alldeaf i finish my school in canada shool of deaf, i believe and also have the feeling that in todays world, neither race, age,nationality nor religion will any longer posse a barrier to male/female relationships. Although, we do not know each other well but i will really like to know more about you and if possible go into a relationship, if that is better for you. I am marie, i am student leaving in canada toronto.. I live alone, i'm self employed and i'm looking for a mate, someone that will care for me and i will love and care in return. I am 29 yrs old, i am fair and honest woman and always will be true to my man. So...tell me more about yourself, what food do you like and how may i entice you. I will also like to see your face sometime, your shinning beauty...i'm sure it's like the sun. I really know how to treat man and how to love man, pls reply as soon as possible. Let's be like honeybees and make something sweet. Please reply to my email (mariedoral@yahoo.com). If you have a yahoo messenger id you can add me so can get to chat also...my id is mariedoral. . I will be waiting to read from you soon.

Stay blessed

marie.
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asl loves you
 
rockdrummer said:
It is a problem when you are learning with a child that is also learning and each are learning from different regional signs.
Click to expand...

It doesn't have to be - in fact variations can easily be turned into a FUN GAME !

We use to play a signing game where you'd pick a sign (usually for an object/thing), and then think of all the variations of that sign we knew (including other sign language signs if applicable).


Children will pick up on YOUR /others frustration - so if YOU seem frustrated by regional differences in ASL then THEY will likely decide it's "OK to be frustrated about different signs" too ... on the other hand, if you decide that regional differences in ASL are similar if not identical to the regional differences that ALL languages including English, French, Spanish, etc have.

ASLers do themselves a dis-service by thinking of regional differences for signs as somehow bad, weak, or as a mark of underdevelopment, because it's simply NOT the case. Rather - it is just one example of the MANY parallels that ASL has with ALL other "LIVING Languages" , meaning languages that are continue to be used and "grow".

One thing I find interested is that even with linguistically "uniting force" of the internet which allows people form all over the world to talk to each other - using and sharing their regional differences for some words (car trunk = boot, truck = lorry, sub sandwich=hero/hoagie, TV=telly etc) there regional differences are "lost", rather they are often "adopted" by non-native users :)
The way this relates to ASL is that our various regional differences for some signs are now better known by many more ASLers from all over - so while a certain region may still to sign "CAKE" using "their regional sign" they are also aware of the other signs used in the ASL world that ALSO mean "CAKE".

Personally - I see gaining more regional sign knowledge as a GOOD thing - since it explains our language usage, and over time can even allow subtle differences in meaning depending on the sign chosen, or even the location that something occurs.

An personal example I have is that if I'm talking about USA friends/family and their Christmas plans/celebrations happening IN the USA etc - I use the USA sign for CHRISTMAS, however if I'm talking about Canadian family/friends etc - I use the Canadian sign for CHRISTMAS *shrugs* its just a thing I've done since the time I moved from Canada to live in the USA for a year.

Another example is if I'm talking with a friend that I know prefers a certain sign for something where there are variations (birthday, Christmas, thanksgiving, aunt/uncle etc) then I tend to use their preference (especially if it's an ASL student or someone who's not a native/near-native signer).
 
flip said:
I can communicate with other people with:
A lighbulb, by flashing morse code in any spoken language I know of.
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That right there shows that Morse Code is not a language.
The fact that Braille comes in many languages shows that it isn't itself a language. It's a system used to communicate other languages over great distances.
The fact that manually coded languages come in various languages shows they are not languages.
They are merely ways of encoding what are already languages into a new medium.
 
WeeBeastie said:
Wouldn't really be any different than teaching a child about synonyms. It is not beyond the understanding of a young child to recognize that other people may have a different word for things. Diaper vs. nappy, French fries vs. chips, soccer vs. football, water fountain vs. bubbler...

for example: submarine, hoagie, hero, grinder, po'boy... all regionally used words to describe the same thing - a big sandwich.

The concept fits very well into regional sign language.
Click to expand...
I disagree. I am not talking about synonyms. I am talking about the same word with the same definition in the same context. Different signs. WHY?? It's confusing.
 
CJB said:
The accent analogy fails. A closer equivalent to ASL would be signing the same sign with one hand shape vs. another hand shape. An example: some people sign "country" with a flat hand and some people sign it with a Y hand shape. And some people, when they sign it with a Y hand shape mean "county."
Click to expand...
This is my point. That is confusing and why can't there be a standard sign for country.

CJB said:
Here's a better spoken language analogy to regional ASL signs. In the UK, people talk about their "flat" and "flatmate" whereas in the US speakers talk about their "apartment" and "roommate." To be "pissed" in the UK means to be "drunk" but to be "pissed" in the U.S. means "to be annoyed/ticked off." In both cases, either a different word is used for the same concept in the same context or the same word is used in a different context to mean something different.

Using different signs isn't like speaking with a different accent. It's like using different words for the same thing, but that happens in spoken languages too.
Click to expand...
I am not talking about different countries. I get that there will be differences between coutries. What I am talking about is within the USA there are differences depending on the region.
 
Anij said:
It doesn't have to be - in fact variations can easily be turned into a FUN GAME !

We use to play a signing game where you'd pick a sign (usually for an object/thing), and then think of all the variations of that sign we knew (including other sign language signs if applicable).


Children will pick up on YOUR /others frustration - so if YOU seem frustrated by regional differences in ASL then THEY will likely decide it's "OK to be frustrated about different signs" too ... on the other hand, if you decide that regional differences in ASL are similar if not identical to the regional differences that ALL languages including English, French, Spanish, etc have.

ASLers do themselves a dis-service by thinking of regional differences for signs as somehow bad, weak, or as a mark of underdevelopment, because it's simply NOT the case. Rather - it is just one example of the MANY parallels that ASL has with ALL other "LIVING Languages" , meaning languages that are continue to be used and "grow".

One thing I find interested is that even with linguistically "uniting force" of the internet which allows people form all over the world to talk to each other - using and sharing their regional differences for some words (car trunk = boot, truck = lorry, sub sandwich=hero/hoagie, TV=telly etc) there regional differences are "lost", rather they are often "adopted" by non-native users :)
The way this relates to ASL is that our various regional differences for some signs are now better known by many more ASLers from all over - so while a certain region may still to sign "CAKE" using "their regional sign" they are also aware of the other signs used in the ASL world that ALSO mean "CAKE".

Personally - I see gaining more regional sign knowledge as a GOOD thing - since it explains our language usage, and over time can even allow subtle differences in meaning depending on the sign chosen, or even the location that something occurs.

An personal example I have is that if I'm talking about USA friends/family and their Christmas plans/celebrations happening IN the USA etc - I use the USA sign for CHRISTMAS, however if I'm talking about Canadian family/friends etc - I use the Canadian sign for CHRISTMAS *shrugs* its just a thing I've done since the time I moved from Canada to live in the USA for a year.

Another example is if I'm talking with a friend that I know prefers a certain sign for something where there are variations (birthday, Christmas, thanksgiving, aunt/uncle etc) then I tend to use their preference (especially if it's an ASL student or someone who's not a native/near-native signer).
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but it's not a game. In reality what happens is a breakdown of communication.
 
souggy said:
Move to Canada...

Out east, they call it a Chesterfield.

Out west, they call it... a couch.
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Right but those are two different words. That is not what I am talking about. Same word, same context - different signs.
 
rockdrummer said:
This is my point. That is confusing and why can't there be a standard sign for country.

.
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If you want to add more confusion, I never understood why we have so many signing method for the deaf. Cue, SEE, PSE, etc.

I wouldn't worry about "accent" signing. No one else really have a problem with it.
 
rockdrummer said:
Right but those are two different words. That is not what I am talking about. Same word, same context - different signs.
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It's exactly the same. a sign *is* a word.

An everyday example for me would be siging 'cereal'. We have 2 signs for it and we use them interchangeably. There's no confusion. Same with 'pizza'.
 
rockdrummer said:
I am not talking about different countries. I get that there will be differences between coutries. What I am talking about is within the USA there are differences depending on the region.
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they may be different countries, but it's the same language. International differences are absolutely no different than regional differences within the same country. In the end, it's all English.
 
To ilustrate the point...

Suppose I sign this:

pop.ht16.jpg


And I don't know English. I rely on an interpreter.

I happen to be in New Jersey. Would the interpreter call it "pop" or "soda"?

Okay, let say I am in Texas with a Texan interpreter.

Is that sign translated as "pop" or "soda"?

Same sign. Two different translated words.
 
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