Trilingualism

Jiro said:
since you said "in order to be a language it must meet linguistic criteria."... dozens of sign languages around the world such as Adamorobe Sign Language in Ghana are not language because it does not meet linguistic criteria. It is incomplete.



visual language. sign language. tactile language. audible language. written language. spoken language.

PSE is.... which one?
SEE is... which one?
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SEE is a visual system of English that was taken from ASL to modify into English syntax hence the reason it is not a language. Just a system.
 
Jiro said:
sorry but it meets the definition of language. By your logic - pretty much dozens of sign languages around the world except ASL are not language.
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FSL
Auslan
and other sign languages of the other countries are languages of their own.

Any attempt to take a language and modify it makes it a system.

I took grad level linguistics courses and it was stated that SEE, PSE, CS, or any other MCE sysstems are not languages.
 
shel90 said:
SEE is a visual system of English that was taken from ASL to modify into English syntax hence the reason it is not a language. Just a system.
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A language is a system of signs (indices, icons, symbols) for encoding and decoding information.
 
Jiro said:
A language is a system of signs (indices, icons, symbols) for encoding and decoding information.
Click to expand...

SEE is not it's OWN language. It follows the rules and grammar of English. That would be like saying braille is a language. It is a mere method for conveying the English language.
 
Jiro said:
sorry but it meets the definition of language. By your logic - pretty much dozens of sign languages around the world except ASL are not language.
Click to expand...

But LSF isn't a system of encoding French and BSL isn't a system of encoding English and JSL isn't a system of encoding Japanese and CSL isn't a system of encoding Chinese. So those, like ASL, are all their own languages. But PSE and SEE are systems of encoding English. If there are signs that encode spoken French, Japanese, Chinese, or whatever other spoken language, then they are systems, not languages.
 
CJB said:
But LSF isn't a system of encoding French and BSL isn't a system of encoding English and JSL isn't a system of encoding Japanese and CSL isn't a system of encoding Chinese. So those, like ASL, are all their own languages. But PSE and SEE are systems of encoding English. If there are signs that encode spoken French, Japanese, Chinese, or whatever other spoken language, then they are systems, not languages.
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Correct..
 
Wirelessly posted

CJB said:
Jiro said:
sorry but it meets the definition of language. By your logic - pretty much dozens of sign languages around the world except ASL are not language.
Click to expand...

But LSF isn't a system of encoding French and BSL isn't a system of encoding English and JSL isn't a system of encoding Japanese and CSL isn't a system of encoding Chinese. So those, like ASL, are all their own languages. But PSE and SEE are systems of encoding English. If there are signs that encode spoken French, Japanese, Chinese, or whatever other spoken language, then they are systems, not languages.
Click to expand...

There's Chinese Sign Language?

And I though French Sign Language is abberviated as LSF.
 
Jiro said:
......................................................visual language. sign language. tactile language. audible language. written language. spoken language.

PSE is.... which one?
SEE is... which one?
Click to expand...

Let me see if I have this right.

PSE is a hybrid of a sign language (ASL) and a spoken language (English)
SEE is a Manually coded English. English is a spoken language.

English also has a written form but I don't know if that qualifies as a "written language" I am also unfamiliar with the term "audible language"

Please correct me if I am wrong.
 
Yes - but not fluently (anymore).

English (fluent)

ASL (conversationally fluent)

French (used to be conversationally fluent in Jr. high and high school - but haven't used it much since)
 
PSE is a contact language, but loosely used here and there. It's also said that the border, where ASL stop beeing ASL, and becomes PSE, and the border where PSE stop beeing PSE and becomes english, aren't clear.

With this is mind, I have noticed that people tend to label themselves different even if they have the same skills. Some people who are using something that is more ASL than PSE, claim they use PSE, while other users of PSE claim they are users of ASL. It can be hard of hearing people who claim themselves as users of PSE, while in reality, in my eyes, they are using more ASL than they are aware of.

Perhaps it's that people who think in english words, speaking english inside themselves, feel they are PSE users because they think in english when using "ASL", and also switch between english mode and ASL mode so quick, they believe they are using PSE.

I wonder if those people really are more bilingual than PSE users. PSE in a strict definition, would perhaps be when a deaf person met a hearing person, and the deaf person have a crap voice, and the hearie is crap in signing. They way they would communicate is PSE. That's why PSE is more of a classroom language than something seen in everyday communication?
 
flip said:
PSE is a contact language, but loosely used here and there. It's also said that the border, where ASL stop beeing ASL, and becomes PSE, and the border where PSE stop beeing PSE and becomes english, aren't clear.

With this is mind, I have noticed that people tend to label themselves different even if they have the same skills. Some people who are using something that is more ASL than PSE, claim they use PSE, while other users of PSE claim they are users of ASL. It can be hard of hearing people who claim themselves as users of PSE, while in reality, in my eyes, they are using more ASL than they are aware of.

Perhaps it's that people who think in english words, speaking english inside themselves, feel they are PSE users because they think in english when using "ASL", and also switch between english mode and ASL mode so quick, they believe they are using PSE.
Click to expand...

Another thing to take into account is the person they're talking to. Someone might use more ASL with one person but more PSE with another.
 
Another confusing factor with ASL is that there are different signs for the same word in the same context depending on your "region" within the United States. It seems to me that it would be beneficial to the language for it to evolve a bit more (I know I am gonna take shit for that one) to where it's more standardized and structured as other languages are.

I can say this with confidence as a learner of ASL I have been very frustrated and confused because of this regional issue. Much of what I have been learning online doesn't apply to me in my region becuse many of the signs are different. I know some will come back and compare regional ASL to different accents in English. To me there is no comparison. If a person says car with an accent they are still saying car and they are still spelling it the same way and using it in the same context.
 
rockdrummer said:
Another confusing factor with ASL is that there are different signs for the same word in the same context depending on your "region" within the United States. It seems to me that it would be beneficial to the language for it to evolve a bit more (I know I am gonna take shit for that one) to where it's more standardized and structured as other languages are.

I can say this with confidence as a learner of ASL I have been very frustrated and confused because of this regional issue. Much of what I have been learning online doesn't apply to me in my region becuse many of the signs are different. I know some will come back and compare regional ASL to different accents in English. To me there is no comparison. If a person says car with an accent they are still saying car and they are still spelling it the same way and using it in the same context.
Click to expand...

When you are thinking conerptually when conversing in ASL, the differents signs aren't a major problem.
 
Jiro said:
sorry but it meets the definition of language. By your logic - pretty much dozens of sign languages around the world except ASL are not language.
Click to expand...

Actually, it meets the definition of "mode of language" not of "language". None can stand independently on their own without the base language being communicated through the mode.
 
shel90 said:
When you are thinking conerptually when conversing in ASL, the differents signs aren't a major problem.
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It is a problem when you are learning with a child that is also learning and each are learning from different regional signs.
 
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